Return of the Warrior

[tashley]

Tim, thanks, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the Samyang but was hoping for a wider solution. If it does deliver - looks very much like the Nikon which doesn't fill me with confidence - I may buy the Samyang and the Zeiss.

There again I might even go with the 5D.

Sheesh, this stuff is never easy!

You're right, SO not easy. But much as the D800 fills me with mistrust and irritation, it does produce astonishingly good files if you give up expecting it to be perfect and go along with its foibles...

 

[gerald.d]

Easy answer: every time I sell something on eBay that's worth more than a few hundred, I risk some arse trying to scam me. Famously an M8.2 that was clearly indicated as for sale to delivery address in UK only - and after the auction closed I get an email asking me to post it Nigeria with payment by Western Union... HIgh value items are more comforting sold through a dealer for those reasons and more comforting bought from a dealer because of warranties and so on.

I think this differs a bit in the US, where the GetDPI For Sale board and similar are effectively operating in a private community of people known to each other and with a level of trust on both sides. But there are far fewer opportunities to sell in this manner in Europe... sadly.

But I am open to offers!

So the dealer wasn't prepared to sell it at the price you'd have been willing to accept?

That's pretty distasteful really, not to mention possibly illegally maintaining a false market.

 

[RVB]

Interesting results Tim.

Looking at your files I can conclude two things.

1. The Nikon/Zeiss and Phase/Schneider files look equally as good as each other and the only obvious difference being resolution.

2. The Zeiss 21mm lens you used is not worth the money and gives very poor results away from the centre. Who actually makes good wide lenses for 35mm FF that are sharp across the frame?

I wouldn't argue with this but I do think the phase color is more attractive..and the increase in resolution is noticeable...

 

[tashley]

So the dealer wasn't prepared to sell it at the price you'd have been willing to accept?

That's pretty distasteful really, not to mention possibly illegally maintaining a false market.

As we got a few months in and I said I wanted it back, he hinted very strongly that this was the problem. I can say no more!

 

[goesbang]

I'm jumping in a bit late on this thread as I'm in the middle of moving from Malaysia to Switzerland.
Tim, I have some reservations about your conclusions about your torture test.
The 35XL, for all its vaunted reputation, simply does not have the resolving power to match the IQ180. I had one, and have tested several others and my view is that it does not come close to the res my 23HR or 40HR deliver. Good, but not great is how I would describe it. Hence, your test is in my view not producing the best file the IQ180 is capable of.
However, taking on board your other considerations, I think your general thoughts on the right gear for you are fair enough. For me, I have decided that 35mm platform is useless, and am selling all my gear and will shoot almost exclusively IQ180/Alpa STC/ Rodenstock glass. I have a DF system, but it only gets used occasionally, usually when I need longer lenses for people shots.
BTW, I can assure you that Phase does not have any instructions to its dealers re: pricing on used gear. That's a decision individual dealers make. Of course as a commercial decision, it doesn't make sense to devalue the market. Best you sell privately. It takes a little effort, but I have sold my P25, P65+ and Aptus 12 this way.
Good luck with the journey!
Cheers,

 

[gerald.d]

BTW, I can assure you that Phase does not have any instructions to its dealers re: pricing on used gear. That's a decision individual dealers make. Of course as a commercial decision, it doesn't make sense to devalue the market.

What is it that is unique about the second-hand market for MFDB's that it doesn't make sense for the products to be priced in such a way that they actually get sold?

There is no market without a buyer. The only thing you have if you over-value your stock is an inflated balance sheet that will come back and bite you hard one day. This stuff doesn't appreciate.

 

[Pics2]

BTW, I can assure you that Phase does not have any instructions to its dealers re: pricing on used gear. That's a decision individual dealers make. Of course as a commercial decision, it doesn't make sense to devalue the market. Best you sell privately. It takes a little effort, but I have sold my P25, P65+ and Aptus 12 this way.
Good luck with the journey!
Cheers,

You forgot to mention that you were willing to travel to buyer's destination. I think it plays a big role in your success in sales.
Little advice to the potential sellers of expensive equipment (Tashley and others) from buyers perspective ( I was looking for DMF solution for a year and finally bought IQ160 on these forums) - you should be prepared to fly over to the buyer. I know it can take 2-3 days of your time, but, we are talking of 20000 - 25000 $ that you are collecting. Just because you don't want to spend 2-3 days on the road it could stay unsold for 6-12 moths.
Tashley, don't sell it on Ebay. There are many honest potential buyers on these forums, I'm sure.

 

[tashley]

That point about being willing to travel is really important. Hey guys, I will travel to anywhere in the EU to deliver this system and no reasonable offer will be refused!

 

[tashley]

I'm jumping in a bit late on this thread as I'm in the middle of moving from Malaysia to Switzerland.
Tim, I have some reservations about your conclusions about your torture test.
The 35XL, for all its vaunted reputation, simply does not have the resolving power to match the IQ180. I had one, and have tested several others and my view is that it does not come close to the res my 23HR or 40HR deliver. Good, but not great is how I would describe it. Hence, your test is in my view not producing the best file the IQ180 is capable of.
Cheers,

Fascinating, thank you: it has so often been stressed that the reason to switch into the Rodies is the better handling of colour vignetting. But the shots I have been seeing from the 35XL do indeed not seem to me to offer the sort of resolution across the field that I would expect. Question answered. Very useful information!

 

[chrismuc]

Hello Tim,

did you ever try the Contax CY version of the 21f2.8 lens? I compared it at a dealer with the ZE version and it easily outperformed it reg. corner sharpness. I only can show sample pics* by 5D2, so only 6.4um resolution instead of the 4.8um resolution of a D800 but I think still one can see the quality. I think the CY lenses also can be adapted via Leitax on Nikon bodies.
Two files for download:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18437364/dpi/CY21f2.8atf11_5D2-01.tif
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18437364/dpi/CY21f2.8atf11_5D2-02.tif
*Distortion corrected with Alpa lens corrector plugin for PS.

On the iQ180 I recommend for that angle of view the Contax 645 35f3.5 Distagon. Pls check the following link. Tack sharp corner to corner at f11. Of course no LCC required. Shot with monopod at 1/45s.
Here is the file for your evaluation:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/18437364/dpi/Contax645_35f3.5atf11_iQ180-01.tif
(160 MB ... might take some minutes for upload to the dropbox)

Christoph

 

[anGy]

Regarding printing large why not consider it for your own pleasure and not for selling purpose ?
I foolishly thinks that making some kind of art starts by indulging yourself

Regarding wide angle lenses quality not matching the D800 sensor quality, we can also say that the D800 shouldn't be recommended for wide angle shots because its sensor doesn't match the wide angle lenses market standards.
Pixels density is too high, current wide angle lenses cannot cope with it.

This is the main justification for using the IQ and its big sensor.
Rodenstock lenses are supposed to match the IQ backs expectations.
T/S is available. There is no need to software correct perspective and then software correct objects proportions and then add some software sharpness to try masking those destructive operations.
And expensive lenses with low production volumes do offer high and consistant level of quality control.
And there is no mirror slap ruining your sharpness with copal shutters and tech cams.
This is all logic and consistent.
(I'm mainly speaking about my needs (architecture).

I think you're adding contradiction to the equation when trying to get high quality IQ wide angle shots from a dslr system and won't find a solution.
How should Nikon/lenses producers for dslr offer all that in the wide angle range and at such a good level that it will satisfy medium format users ?

 

[vjbelle]

Tim,

I also own the same camera combinations as you, though I am Alpa based for MF. I also have a 9900 so I usually print either 36 inches in the long direction or 40 inches. With my latest print test comparing the 800e (50mm Zeiss Planar f2) against the IQ180 (Schneider 100mm digitar) I found that at 40 inches there was an advantage with the IQ180 but it took an experienced person to see the difference and then it was only on certain highly detailed portions of the image. I printed some crops on Epson Enhanced Matt paper and took them to my local camera dealer to see if anyone could tell the difference. Almost everyone found them to be identical.

I hear everything you are saying - especially regarding wides for either system. I have become so disappointed with wides that I won't go wider than my 50mm Zeiss on the 800e or 60mm Schneider Digitar on my Alpa. That's it for me! If I need wider then I'll do a 2 or 3 shot pano. Much better results than soft edges on wides. Even my 35mm Zeiss f2 is somewhat disappointing compared to the 50mm Zeiss. It isn't so much the edges but more the micro contrast and micro detail that the 50mm extracts. I am, now, begin very picky..... I hope Zeiss had me in mind when they decided to manufacture their new lens line.

Victor

 

[Ed Hurst]

In case it's of interest, I am going to be using the Zeiss 15mm with a D800E in the hope that this wholly new design might do the D800E's sensor justice. Time will tell!

 

[tashley]

Tim,

I also own the same camera combinations as you, though I am Alpa based for MF. I also have a 9900 so I usually print either 36 inches in the long direction or 40 inches. With my latest print test comparing the 800e (50mm Zeiss Planar f2) against the IQ180 (Schneider 100mm digitar) I found that at 40 inches there was an advantage with the IQ180 but it took an experienced person to see the difference and then it was only on certain highly detailed portions of the image. I printed some crops on Epson Enhanced Matt paper and took them to my local camera dealer to see if anyone could tell the difference. Almost everyone found them to be identical.

I hear everything you are saying - especially regarding wides for either system. I have become so disappointed with wides that I won't go wider than my 50mm Zeiss on the 800e or 60mm Schneider Digitar on my Alpa. That's it for me! If I need wider then I'll do a 2 or 3 shot pano. Much better results than soft edges on wides. Even my 35mm Zeiss f2 is somewhat disappointing compared to the 50mm Zeiss. It isn't so much the edges but more the micro contrast and micro detail that the 50mm extracts. I am, now, begin very picky..... I hope Zeiss had me in mind when they decided to manufacture their new lens line.

Victor

Victor, beg borrow buy or steal a Sony RX-1: it is the only wide-ish lens on full frame I know that is reliably sharp to the edges and corners and for prints to 32" will beat any mid-wide lens I have yet tried on a D800! Otherwise the Samyang 14mm F2.8 does the trick!

 

[tashley]

Regarding printing large why not consider it for your own pleasure and not for selling purpose ?
I foolishly thinks that making some kind of art starts by indulging yourself

Ahh but if I'm going to devote that much wall space, it has to be really good - i.e. by someone else!

Regarding wide angle lenses quality not matching the D800 sensor quality, we can also say that the D800 shouldn't be recommended for wide angle shots because its sensor doesn't match the wide angle lenses market standards.
Pixels density is too high, current wide angle lenses cannot cope with it.

This is the main justification for using the IQ and its big sensor.
Rodenstock lenses are supposed to match the IQ backs expectations.
T/S is available. There is no need to software correct perspective and then software correct objects proportions and then add some software sharpness to try masking those destructive operations.
And expensive lenses with low production volumes do offer high and consistant level of quality control.
And there is no mirror slap ruining your sharpness with copal shutters and tech cams.
This is all logic and consistent.
(I'm mainly speaking about my needs (architecture).

I think you're adding contradiction to the equation when trying to get high quality IQ wide angle shots from a dslr system and won't find a solution.
How should Nikon/lenses producers for dslr offer all that in the wide angle range and at such a good level that it will satisfy medium format users ?

I agree but I do think it'll come: so many people have no 'gone D800' from MF that the demand is there, and as Canon and Nikon head towards the 50-70mp bracket on FF, there will certainly be demand. Where there's a will, there's a way! And as I just replied to Victor, the Zeiss 35mm on the Sony RX-1 can 'do' at least moderately wide from edge to edge on full frame, and despite an occasional slight mid-field weakness, I think that lens would scale quite well to a 36mp sensor.

 

[tashley]

Hello Tim,


On the iQ180 I recommend for that angle of view the Contax 645 35f3.5 Distagon. Pls check the following link.

Christoph

Thanks Christoph, that was pretty impressive! But I am selling, nonetheless! The question now is, what is the going price for an IQ180 with less than 2,000 shots on it with a DF body, 80mm kit lens and Cambo Wide RS with Schneider 35XL...

 

[RVB]

Victor, beg borrow buy or steal a Sony RX-1: it is the only wide-ish lens on full frame I know that is reliably sharp to the edges and corners and for prints to 32" will beat any mid-wide lens I have yet tried on a D800! Otherwise the Samyang 14mm F2.8 does the trick!

Just wondering if you have tried the new 15mm Zeiss?

 

[tashley]

Just wondering if you have tried the new 15mm Zeiss?

No, I though of getting one but having intensively read the reviews and taking into account that by absolute standards it is an amazing lens I got the Samyang. I am routinely and easily able to get it perfectly sharp across the frame with lovely detail and frankly, with the price differential, I'd be paying multiples for a lens that seems to me no better other than in terms of distortion.

 

[RVB]

No, I though of getting one but having intensively read the reviews and taking into account that by absolute standards it is an amazing lens I got the Samyang. I am routinely and easily able to get it perfectly sharp across the frame with lovely detail and frankly, with the price differential, I'd be paying multiples for a lens that seems to me no better other than in terms of distortion.

Good point,I have a Zeiss 15 in canon mount and also have the 17TSE.. I think the tse is better value for money,Hopefully Nikon will release a 17mm PC soon as I am using a D800E now..

But pound for pound the Samyang is tough to beat..

 

[thrice]

Who actually makes good wide lenses for 35mm FF that are sharp across the frame?

Leica M - but then they won't mount on an SLR