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Thread: fat pixel digital backs

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    fat pixel digital backs

    Hi

    I'm thinking of getting a relatively inexpensive back between 16-22MP for my old Hasselblad 503. I do not want to part with my hassey and have a Phase sytem for more serious work. I'm intrigued by the image quality from 9 micro pixel backs such as the CFV 16. Could anyone provide some insight on how do the fat pixel backs compare? CFV 16, Aptus 22, P25, Aptus 54s? Do they all provide the same "pop" or feel of the CFV16? (Crop factor aside)

    Thanks in advance

    mmbma

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I have a P30+ H mount for sale for a good price if you are interested in buying into the H system.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    A lot to be said for the seamless connection and sq format for the cv16 backs

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    Hi

    I'm thinking of getting a relatively inexpensive back between 16-22MP for my old Hasselblad 503. I do not want to part with my hassey and have a Phase sytem for more serious work. I'm intrigued by the image quality from 9 micro pixel backs such as the CFV 16. Could anyone provide some insight on how do the fat pixel backs compare? CFV 16, Aptus 22, P25, Aptus 54s? Do they all provide the same "pop" or feel of the CFV16? (Crop factor aside)

    Thanks in advance

    mmbma
    It has been awhile, but I did love the CFV/16 on the good old 500 series camera ... seemed just right.

    Planet V - Hasselblad.com

    Here is where to see a whole bunch others:

    Planet V - Hasselblad.com

    Hope this inspires!

    -Marc

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I did like my P25+ quite a bit. Kodachrome 25.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I still have a P25+ back and I like the way that it renders. Compared to a higher MP back it is useful in so far as I can get away with stopping lenses down more and the visual acuity/contrast is higher straight from the camera. (Yes, I know that if you downres a higher MP image it'll look the same ...)

    Just watch for moire.
    Ylem ...

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Get the fat pixels, they soak up color like no other! There's not many CFV-16's available and for reason. There more tolerant of bad camera technique too.
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Johhny, i kow the CF16s are rare, so my question was, are the other 22mp backs just as nice in terms of image quality as the CF16?

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I believe they are the same sensor as the P25+ . Kodak 9 micron. There was also a P20 Square format as well same sensor.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I gotta say I miss that square format of the old Kodak 645M. If you could work around its limitations, it was great (stuck at ISO 100).

    Probably the dumbest easy MFDB I've ever had was the Phase P30. Just a great MFDB and very *ahem* tolerant of fast, hit and run photography.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Speaking of fat Pixels: I really wish someone would do a new firmware and a modern connection and software for the Dicomed Bigshot.
    It was so far ahead of time and the chip is still the biggest ever made. it is square and uses the full 55x55mm of the Hasselblad V/F.

    Of course this will never happen..........

    But one can dream a bit.

    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I use a P25+ back. Very image images. Very crisp. Nothing like a 35mm 24MP sensor.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Speaking of fat Pixels: I really wish someone would do a new firmware and a modern connection and software for the Dicomed Bigshot.
    It was so far ahead of time and the chip is still the biggest ever made. it is square and uses the full 55x55mm of the Hasselblad V/F.

    Of course this will never happen..........

    But one can dream a bit.

    I've never heard of this one....time to search the web.

    Gary

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    There is something special with the way "fat pixel" backs render, I noticed it rather early and have been hanging on to my P25 ever since. For 7 years this back has been rock solid, and with each new version of C1 the quality of the files have only gotten better. I just bought an rz67 IID to complement my AFD and couldn't be happier.
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I've never heard of this one....time to search the web.

    Gary
    Here's a review: Dicomed Bigshot Camera (Chip Shop 04/96)

    I don't think that chip is so good with today's standards though, I think it has 10 bit dynamic range or something like that.

    As far as I understand the first sensors that are *really good* even with today's standards are the 9um sensors seen in P25, CFV-16 etc. I've used a Hasselblad CF-22 a bit, very enjoyable.

    Of all opinions I've seen it seems that many fall in love of the Kodak KAF-22000 color rendering (used in most of these backs, Leaf uses Dalsa though), which probably is not that accurate in an absolute sense if compared to the most accurate Dalsa sensors today, but I guess the look is "film-like" in a way many prefer.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I've exclusively used a "fat pixel" back for the last four years and love the files. The only downside is that they are moiré machines.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    There was something in those fat pixels - with a P-20 back, the images just fell out of the back with lovely color needing little or no work.
    Last edited by Geoff; 1st March 2013 at 01:08.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    mmbma-

    I think the other DB's you mentioned are excellent. The Aptus 22 has a great reputation for skin tones. I've seen some beautiful examples of that. Shooting with the 503CW, the Aptus sensor is smaller, so no cropping of digital image. I'm keeping my options open for the Aptus 22 or P25+ - 22mp seems like the sweet spot for most Zeiss lenses on the 503.

    Also, the P25+ has no cooling fan, and longer exposure capabilities.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    appreciate it

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    For what it's worth, any digital back that offered either 16 or 22 megapixels, utilized a 9 micron pitch.

    This includes products from Leaf/Phase/Sinar/Hasselblad/Imacon/Kodak.


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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    The Dicomed Bigshot was the King of the hill with 13 Microns.
    I really wonder what a chip with that specs made with todays knowhow could do DR wise.

    Regards
    Stefan
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    The Dicomed Bigshot was the King of the hill with 13 Microns.
    I really wonder what a chip with that specs made with todays knowhow could do DR wise.

    Regards
    Stefan
    The large pixels can capture a lot of photons. The 9 um pixels of the 22 meg backs captures about 100,000 photons per pixel, which is more than modern smaller pixel sensors do, but of course it is far from fully utilised when the A/D converter range is 0-16383 (~6 photons per step) and you have various sorts of read noise on top of that. CCD performance of photographic sensors has improved a bit from the Bigshot days, but not that much from the P25 days.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Again - here is a real fat Pixel - made by Canon.

    Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor « Canon Rumors

    The idea is virulent !
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    the aptus 22 is really nice... but an aptus 75 is as nice with more pixel... and in second hand prices are similar !

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    some more info´s about the Canon 19Micron chip

    Canon develops high sensitivity full-frame CMOS sensor for video: Digital Photography Review

    http://www.canon.com/news/media/20130304mov.mp4

    Watch the video, this is MEGA COOL !

    Greetings from Germany
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    It was indeed cool! As far as I understand, the application of this megasized pixels is to be able to record very low amounts of photons, i e ultra-high ISO, for applications like surveillance and wildlife. My guess is that it is quite mediocre at a normal ISO though, that is that the technology does not have that much value for normal photography applications. Still cool though.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    You can switch the high sensitivity on and off as they show in the video of the Moonlit house in the end.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Some initial thoughts after my first tests with the P65+ after 3 months with the Aptus 75s & 3 years with a Sinar 54lv :
    - the sinar remains the king of skin colors and will remain attached to my contax for this purpose
    - the P65 technical qualities are amazing. Certainly more accurate than the Sinar, much more DR, of course more pixels. The perfect companion for the alpa and landscapes. I also find that the potential of the back is better reached with a tech camera.
    - the aptus had some technical advantages over the sinar, but I prefered colors of sinar, a more film-like look. Sold it rapidly.
    - I find that 22MPix is sufficient for portraits, where 60 are mostly interesting on landscapes
    - sinar landscapes look also fantastic, but light must be really good to excel. Blacks/dark tones are amazing, highlights are not better than a D3x.
    - even if the leaf is my less-prefered back, it remains great.
    - I tend to think that sinar great colors come from the full linear processing more than from the 9m pixels

    My totally subjective opinion, based on no experience except looking to pictures : I would mary a classic Hasselblad either with a P20+ or a CFV39 ...

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by OliverM View Post
    Some initial thoughts after my first tests with the P65+ after 3 months with the Aptus 75s & 3 years with a Sinar 54lv :
    - the sinar remains the king of skin colors and will remain attached to my contax for this purpose
    Were you using the Phase One Portrait profile with the 65+ or the default generic-flash profile?

    Do you know/use Color Editor to create a specific value to "suck" skincolor towards?

    I used the 65+ for a LOT of portraits and weddings and found the skintones off that Dalsa sensor to be incredibly good out of the box (using the portrait profile) and the ability to fine tune it (and set a new default) to be really exceptional.

    Naturally I'm biased...
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Were you using the Phase One Portrait profile with the 65+ or the default generic-flash profile?

    Do you know/use Color Editor to create a specific value to "suck" skincolor towards?

    I used the 65+ for a LOT of portraits and weddings and found the skintones off that Dalsa sensor to be incredibly good out of the box (using the portrait profile) and the ability to fine tune it (and set a new default) to be really exceptional.

    Naturally I'm biased...

    No, I have to learn everything with the P65+. what I do now is I start from the linear profile as I really don't like the "film" ones. I will look for this portrait profile, thanks for the tip ! Very encouraging !

    EDIT : found ! This gives even more possibilities, I made 10 different tests with the same image = 10 different results with positive & negative points = I need to know what I want and learn the right workflow to select the right levers


    Still : Sinar portraits are beautiful, and will remain on the contax. I need to learn how to reach the best with the P65. Now that I am done buying & selling equipment, I have plenty of time for this !

    Thanks !
    Last edited by OliverM; 5th March 2013 at 12:36.
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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Nothing says "fat pixels!" better than a fat pixel image. I'm sure others will have much better examples than this one....so let's see them.

    503CWD, CFV16-II, CFi 100mm f3.5 lens

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    fat pixels means moiré...

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    fat pixels means moiré...
    Fat Pixels can mean moiré.

    I wouldn't recommend using one if your main client is Harris Tweed but the reality is for most subjects moiré isn't an issue.
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by archivue View Post
    fat pixels means moiré...
    Yep, you can actually see it in the sand in the nice example picture above. I get quite a lot of moiré (or rather color aliasing, pattern moiré is less common) with my semi-fat 33 megapixel back too, actually if I don't get color aliasing I've missed focus or something .

    Every sensor *should* have an AA-filter, but pixelpeeping is more fun without it .

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    with my semi-fat 33 megapixel back
    33 and 39 megapixel backs seems to be the good balance between resolution/ moiré/lens cast issue...

    when i was shooting with my aptus 22, sometimes moiré was a problem... with architecture !

    the Aptus II 7 is less prone to moiré... but still...

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Nothing fancy, just a quick snap on the balcony to try focus hand held with my new rz67 IID.
    So far I'm extremely pleased with this camera and the look of these lovely lenses mated with my P25.

    Attachment 70122

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    My H25 arrives tomorrow...

    So excited to put the RZ back into use.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    You will love the H25! Just added a P25 to my RZ and the lenses really shine on MFD.

    A couple of quickies from last weekend are below. The moire is there but overall the files are really nice.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    It will be great if this thread evolves into one with only images taken with 33MP or below digital back.
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    It will be great if this thread evolves into one with only images taken with 33MP or below digital back.
    That will be my goal. I only took it out of the box and fired the shutter once.

    More to follow.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I will try to contribute a few more images to this "fat pixel" thread. This might even inspire me to get out and shoot with my CFV-16II more often.

    Here is one of the earliest images taken with my Hasselblad 503CWD.

    No moire in this image, that I can see.

    503CWD, CFV-16II, 40mm CFE IF lens
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I was lookign at the image, and my eyes were like: that picture is too tall what gives?


    brain is like its a square sensor dumby.

    I feel like the colors out of the sensor are more malleable than the files were from my 1Ds1.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Yes, I cropped it from the original square format to eliminate distracting and extraneous stuff on the sides of this tracked vehicle. I'm not a square format purist. Too many years happily shooting 35mm, 6x7 and 4x5 I guess.

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    I would be remiss with out saying:

    Doug Peterson and Michelle of DT were both pivotal in my purchase of a digital back.

    The both went to bat for me with the owner in figuring out a way to help me out.

    Of course as Doug knows, The H25 just plain works - My previous experience with a CFV39 was THAT bad.



    I say we turn this into a 9micron pixel thread!

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Can anyone put together a complete list of the 9 micron pixel backs?

    Gary

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Can't speak to all brands/makes models but for Phase One and Leaf:
    H20
    H25
    P20
    P20+
    P21
    P21+
    P25
    P25+
    Valeo 11
    Valeo 17
    Valeo 22
    Valeo 17wi
    Valeo 22wi
    Aptus 54s
    Aptus 17wi
    Aptus 22wi
    Aptus II 5
    AFI 5

    From broad experience but no specific statistics I think the most common to find today would be: H25, P25, P25+, Valeo 22wi, Aptus 22, Aptus II 5.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Ditto on the CFV39, i had a CF39 which was of the same sensor and I just couldn't get the thing to work well with my style.

    Doug/Michelle are great. Working with them now. I talked to almost all the phase dealers and while everyone is helpful, they are the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrojim View Post
    I would be remiss with out saying:

    Doug Peterson and Michelle of DT were both pivotal in my purchase of a digital back.

    The both went to bat for me with the owner in figuring out a way to help me out.

    Of course as Doug knows, The H25 just plain works - My previous experience with a CFV39 was THAT bad.



    I say we turn this into a 9micron pixel thread!

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    If you can't muster enough motivation, I'm always happy to take it off your hands
    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I will try to contribute a few more images to this "fat pixel" thread. This might even inspire me to get out and shoot with my CFV-16II more often.

    Here is one of the earliest images taken with my Hasselblad 503CWD.

    No moire in this image, that I can see.

    503CWD, CFV-16II, 40mm CFE IF lens

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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrojim View Post
    I say we turn this into a 9micron pixel thread!
    I'm all for that, but we need more 9 micron owners to step up to the plate and show us their stuff!

    Until then, here is one more from me.....shot with the Hasselblad CFi 120 Makro lens. Point of focus could have been better and the background isn't OOF enough, unfortunately.

    I know there are MUCH better 9 micron back images out there.....I hope we see them here soon.

    Amanita Muscaria mushroom, CFV-16II
    Last edited by bensonga; 9th March 2013 at 21:27.
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    Re: fat pixel digital backs

    This is being uploaded from my phone. NO idea if it will work.

    Bianca, turning 16 next month.
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