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The 9 micron sensor: Magic or Myth?

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Guy,

I've noticed that your shots are running cyan/blue and slightly desaturated. It may be time for a refresh on the monitor calibration. Just a friendly observation. :)

I took the liberty of doing a quick correction in PS. Before and after.

David
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Relating to this thread....

If Jack wasn't able to discern much difference in a 3' x 4' print between 39 and 60 MP and we suspect that the lenses are limited in resolving this extra detail, where does this leave the Leica S2? At 37.5MP it should resolve at least as much as the P45+, and the lenses should be a lot better across the board versus the Mamiya lenses. Not saying the Mamiya D lenses are bad, but even with the 80mm D and the 150mm D Sekkors we are seeing limits on resolving power. If the Leica S lenses can seriously outresolve the current competition and the sensor is in line (6um pixels) with what is coming out of the P65+, I'm expecting pretty phenomenal results in a smaller, faster, and fully weather-sealed package. Anyone else thinking the same?

David
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy,

I've noticed that your shots are running cyan/blue and slightly desaturated. It may be time for a refresh on the monitor calibration. Just a friendly observation. :)

I took the liberty of doing a quick correction in PS. Before and after.

David
Thanks David yes a couple things have changed on my box and need to check that. Thanks Guy
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
If Jack wasn't able to discern much difference in a 3' x 4' print between 39 and 60 MP and we suspect that the lenses are limited in resolving this extra detail, ~~~ If the Leica S lenses can seriously outresolve the current competition and the sensor is in line (6um pixels) with what is coming out of the P65+, I'm expecting pretty phenomenal results in a smaller, faster, and fully weather-sealed package. Anyone else thinking the same?
David, here is my take:

If we look at theoretical sensor resolution limits, Nyquist aside, the absolute best we can hope for is as follows: 9 micron sensors will resolve at most 55 line pairs per mm; 6.8 micron sensors (P45+) will resolve 74 line pairs per mm; and 6 micron sensors (P65+ and S2) will resolve at most 83 line pairs per mm.

Looking at the percentage of change on LP/mm rendering, the P45+ has a 26% gain over the P25+ while the P65+ has only an 11% gain over the P45+. Since I did see "some" improvement from the P65+ sensor, I can only assume my lowly Mamiya glass is rendering at least some of that 11% potential advantage. How much exactly is tough to say for certain, but 11% over 26% is less than half, and I can say with some certainty that relative to the change between the P45 and P25, the change between the P65 and P45 seemed somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 as significant -- or right in line with the actual difference in possible resolutions.

Thus I would conclude that even if Leica's MF lenses resolve 200 line pairs, the most they put to the digital sensor will be 83, so even if Mamiya's best lenses only resolve 80 line pairs, the difference in resolution recorded at the sensor is going to be essentially moot...

Finally add one more factor -- getting 80 line pairs of resolution to the imaging surface. Here I will go on record stating it is *VERY* difficult to get more than even 60 line pairs of resolution into a real-world image, and probably one reason the 9 micron sensor holds its own so well! To achieve these levels of resolution you first need the best optics and a sensor that is perfectly parallel to the mounted lens plane, and then you need to use rigorously methodical capture technique; a sturdy tripod, perfect focus, limit camera movement and limit subject movements. Combine all of that and you are on your way.

So while I anxiously await the S2 and think it will be a cutting-edge digital camera on many levels, I do not think it is going to represent a "phenomenal" increase in image quality over current high-end MF digital systems. That said, IMHO there are many other optical qualities beside resolution that lead to a "phenomenal" image, and historically the total "look" *has been* one area where Leica has always excelled. This is an area I hope we'll see some of that Leica phenomenon ;)

Cheers,
 
6.8 micron sensors (P45+) will resolve 74 line pairs per mm; and 6 micron sensors (P65+ and S2) will resolve at most 83 line pairs per mm.

Here I will go on record stating it is *VERY* difficult to get more than even 60 line pairs of resolution into a real-world image

Cheers,
Shoot me down if I'm wrong here, but for the 65+ to show a visible improvement over the 45+ (which it does), then either:

1) Your focussing was better on the 65+ shot, or

2) Your lens is resolving considerably more than 74 lp/mm across the entire frame, in which case :bugeyes:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Focus never changed when shooting the test which i actually shot the images and Jack surpervising. Exactly the same camera and same lens locked down, mirror up and used self timer. Only change was shifting the backs out. Absolute best solution, almost no variables. Only time there was a change is when I had to move in the P65 back to capture the same framing as the P45 and P25 than same procedure but obviously had to make the correct focus and framing adjustments. Pretty much no other choice here if wanting to use the exact lens. We shot from the same spot on one test all 3 backs and than the extra P65 move in framing to match.

My body and lens also if that means anything but we certainly seen many images with it.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Shoot me down if I'm wrong here, but for the 65+ to show a visible improvement over the 45+ (which it does), then either:

1) Your focussing was better on the 65+ shot, or

2) Your lens is resolving considerably more than 74 lp/mm across the entire frame, in which case :bugeyes:
Yes, 2 is a sound conclusion, along with the other components of technique I mentioned :D

Guy and I did the shooting and all modesty aside, we know proper technique... We used a known good lens for our system, the new AFD 80. We confirmed focus via the excellent electronic focus confirmation in the Phase/Mamiya AFD3 body for the shots -- we know it works from previous testing and it eliminates the variable of your #1. We used a sturdy tripod, the Gitzo 3541 XLS with only the first two legs extended, so it was low to the ground. Finally, we used mirror-up and cable release to fire.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Yea lowered the camera to my bloody height actually lower. LOL

He is almost a whole foot taller at least it seems that way my neck hurts from looking up for three days. LOL
 
Yes, 2 is a sound conclusion, along with the other components of technique I mentioned :D

Guy and I did the shooting and all modesty aside, we know proper technique... We used a known good lens for our system, the new AFD 80. We confirmed focus via the excellent electronic focus confirmation in the Phase/Mamiya AFD3 body for the shots -- we know it works from previous testing
Why, then, do folks rave about the Rodenstock and Schneider "digital" LF lenses, if they're only guaranteed to 50 lp/mm across the image circle?

Seems like they're barking up the wrong tree ;)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Why, then, do folks rave about the Rodenstock and Schneider "digital" LF lenses, if they're only guaranteed to 50 lp/mm across the image circle?

Seems like they're barking up the wrong tree ;)
If you look at the MTF charts, I think you'll find Rodenstock and Schneider *digital* lenses run more like 100 LP/mm across the 645 sensor at over 20% contrast, and the HR versions more like 120 line pairs. Most generic Rodenstock or Schneider *4x5* lenses will get you over 50 line pairs. Moreover, the area where the digital lenses excel relative to SLR glass is at the short end, and here most SLR lenses fall in performance pretty quickly relative to the normal and longer focal lengths.

Cheers,
 
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