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A Few Questions and Introduction

bcooter

New member

Thanks for the replies.

There is a lot of things I want from a camera, obviously image quality is important, but that is a moving scale depending on what and how any of us work.

We do a lot with HMI's we use to do with flash, so 800 is important. Anything over that I have 35mm cameras that do the job and I like them, but don't love them.

The phase back is intriguing, but the two issues I have about it is the samples I've seen at 800 iso (at full resolution) seem limited, I don't dislike the DF camera, (don't love it) and to add a new back to my contax' really isn't an option.

The contax' works well, but they're old. I take great care of them and under lighter, editorial production they're great, but they focus slower than the newer mfd cameras, the connections at times can be iffy when shooting 1,000 frames a day and maybe I'm just a little bored with them.

I have had amazing reliability from my phase backs. Actually no equipment other than C-stands has lasted as well as the P+ backs, so I do have hesitation in changing brands . . . except . . .

Everybody says looks don't matter, but on set working I want the equipment to look more specialized and different. I'm not saying that's right for everyone, but that's what I want and one of the reasons I like the H4d Stainless and the H5d.

Actually if the DF+ looked more like this



I'd be more open to accepting it, but I've inquired and it's not possible to change the color to a matte white that is durable.

I know it's more about the quality of the file and the operation of the camera than the looks of a camera, but when I spend this kind of money, I want the camera to look less 35mm and more "wow what is that".

I know that statement on some forums would get me blasted about the photograph only matters, clients can't tell the difference, etc. etc., but in my experience, everything matters. Crew, catering, glitch free production, obviously budget and equipment that doesn't look like what a client can find at their local store.
(I'm not knocking anyone's camera, btw).

The Pentax interests me because it does a clean 800 iso from every sample I've seen. I know the buffer is slow, though I have our Canons cranked down to as slow as they can go and still shoot way to many images. Two weeks ago we produced a lifestyle fashion project on location and shot 7,000 files for the week, and except for a quick burst of the talent walking, everything was shot at click, focus, click, focus, so a Pentax wouldn't slow me up that much.

The only thing is except for the Red limited edition 645d, the pentax does look a little 35ish.

. . . and I'm not going to bring up the 35mm vs. mfd debate. I pray I never have to have that discussion again, because it's been rehashed 100000000 times, mostly by people that don't use both systems and even if they do, the result is it always becomes hurtful.

Nothing is worse than to see someone save and buy a camera they like and have a few people jump on them saying they F'uped and should have bought a blah, blah. blah. Why throw cold water on someone who likes what they use?

It's like going to a dp and saying why did you rent an Arri when a red rent's for 1/2 price? The DP doesn't care, they like what they use and use what they like.

And this is really the reason for this. I want to use a camera I like, even love, a camera that is different, not one that just does the job.*

Once again, thanks.

BC



 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Beautiful shot.

Full Res 800 on the IQ160 and IQ180 is pretty limited.

But sensor+ is 20mp on an IQ180 and you already use/love the P21+ which is "only" 18mp. So using an IQ180 at 200/400 full resolution when possible/practical and pushing a button to shoot a really good 800/1600 in sensor+ when needed is something to consider test. As a bonus the shooting speed, editing speed, and tethering speed in sensor+ is really fast.
 
You want something that is different, something with a quality file. Well, surprised I'm the first to say it : Alpa - unique shooting experience with the most beautiful camera in the world! With a P45+ back or if you like the hasselblad files you can use a hassy back too:)

You talk of Arri in comparison to Red.
Give an Alpa a test try and you will see that it is exactly what you are looking for.

Unique tools for a unique artist.







Thanks for the replies.

There is a lot of things I want from a camera, obviously image quality is important, but that is a moving scale depending on what and how any of us work.

We do a lot with HMI's we use to do with flash, so 800 is important. Anything over that I have 35mm cameras that do the job and I like them, but don't love them.

The phase back is intriguing, but the two issues I have about it is the samples I've seen at 800 iso (at full resolution) seem limited, I don't dislike the DF camera, (don't love it) and to add a new back to my contax' really isn't an option.

The contax' works well, but they're old. I take great care of them and under lighter, editorial production they're great, but they focus slower than the newer mfd cameras, the connections at times can be iffy when shooting 1,000 frames a day and maybe I'm just a little bored with them.

I have had amazing reliability from my phase backs. Actually no equipment other than C-stands has lasted as well as the P+ backs, so I do have hesitation in changing brands . . . except . . .

Everybody says looks don't matter, but on set working I want the equipment to look more specialized and different. I'm not saying that's right for everyone, but that's what I want and one of the reasons I like the H4d Stainless and the H5d.

Actually if the DF+ looked more like this



I'd be more open to accepting it, but I've inquired and it's not possible to change the color to a matte white that is durable.

I know it's more about the quality of the file and the operation of the camera than the looks of a camera, but when I spend this kind of money, I want the camera to look less 35mm and more "wow what is that".

I know that statement on some forums would get me blasted about the photograph only matters, clients can't tell the difference, etc. etc., but in my experience, everything matters. Crew, catering, glitch free production, obviously budget and equipment that doesn't look like what a client can find at their local store.
(I'm not knocking anyone's camera, btw).

The Pentax interests me because it does a clean 800 iso from every sample I've seen. I know the buffer is slow, though I have our Canons cranked down to as slow as they can go and still shoot way to many images. Two weeks ago we produced a lifestyle fashion project on location and shot 7,000 files for the week, and except for a quick burst of the talent walking, everything was shot at click, focus, click, focus, so a Pentax wouldn't slow me up that much.

The only thing is except for the Red limited edition 645d, the pentax does look a little 35ish.

. . . and I'm not going to bring up the 35mm vs. mfd debate. I pray I never have to have that discussion again, because it's been rehashed 100000000 times, mostly by people that don't use both systems and even if they do, the result is it always becomes hurtful.

Nothing is worse than to see someone save and buy a camera they like and have a few people jump on them saying they F'uped and should have bought a blah, blah. blah. Why throw cold water on someone who likes what they use?

It's like going to a dp and saying why did you rent an Arri when a red rent's for 1/2 price? The DP doesn't care, they like what they use and use what they like.

And this is really the reason for this. I want to use a camera I like, even love, a camera that is different, not one that just does the job.*

Once again, thanks.

BC



 

D&A

Well-known member
To add to my comments above, and from my various levels of experience with some of the camera options mentioned, I think a case could be made "for" and "against" the list of choices and it will come down to which personal requirements lead the list. Most are tangibles and then there is the one of simply using a camera that you love to use. That one is not always an easy assets for someone to recommend to another. The Pentax has the clean higher ISO performance, even at 800 but doesn't have efficient tethering.

It does look and respond a bit like an oversized 35mm DSLR but that also turns out to be a strong asset as it rarely if ever hangs up or displays a glitch and has an excellent record of reliability. I haven't had a chance to post recent comparative images of test shots under studio lighting/strobes with both the 645D and Leica "S", but on preliminary examination of the files, the Pentax held it's own under these circumstances in terms of image quality. I'm not suggesting it could match the Leica in many other types of shooting, but with the right lenses it does a more than adequate job, especially for fashion.

Dave (D&A)
 
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docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
You want something that is different, something with a quality file. Well, surprised I'm the first to say it : Alpa - unique shooting experience with the most beautiful camera in the world! With a P45+ back or if you like the hasselblad files you can use a hassy back too:)

You talk of Arri in comparison to Red.
Give an Alpa a test try and you will see that it is exactly what you are looking for.

Unique tools for a unique artist.
Nothing in Alpa is set for a 1000+ Pic day....lovely hardware but not at this level of production....yes you can do it but why would you want to....can see this as a solution for those days you want to break out of the production mold but not on a regular basis.

This is based on my experience and life long love of a TC and H3D II 39 with R/S lenses....

Coots I am a bit surprised you did not move to the EPIC...it has that build quality and robustness that exceeds most other equipment and can be configured any way you want.

No tethering but RAW in real time or 48FPS with a decent monitor for client viewing....just don't let them pick the stills.:ROTFL:

Graham has provided wonderful output to PS and 800 matches most anything out there....a bit small file but the Dragon chip will be better in DR and size and ISO....

Add Leica M lens compatibility, PL or Nikon mount and all day battery compatibility.....

Couple of pics....not to influence your decision. And I admit I liked the output from my R1 ... just did not like the form factor.

RED EPIC Leica M Mount










RED EPIC Nikon ZF.2 100 Macro ISO 800 Equivalent






RED EPIC Nikon ZF.2 35 1.4 Macro ISO 800 Equivalent










RED EPIC Nikon ZF.2 35 1.4 ISO 640 Equivalent







RED EPIC VC Nokton 1.1 Macro ISO 400 Equivalent




You know the workflow and the process...and I am sure you would have done this already if it made sense....

Love to see how this plays out...the Contax system has served you well but not sure how much longer it will play at these levels...

Bob
 

6x7

New member
hi bcooter,

as always the right approach to it is to try one out if the time/circumstances permit. just try to fool yourself on your next shoot thinking that everything went wrong and you have to shoot that unfamiliar H4D/H5D "backup" camera… :) otherwise I may have some uncompromising raws at iso 800/1600 (h4d-40) that I could hand you over. just drop me a pm if you want.
tested one out some time ago and found the quality to be very good if the exposure is right at high ISO. better than any other back I used or tried. my dilemma at that time was the design of the camera which I really hated. must say it meanwhile grew up on me and in the end its about file quality, color and the mojo of the lenses. and that's where the hasselblad delivers in my opinion.

I predict you'll like the camera and may question the software for your style of shooting. phocus is nowhere near C1 regarding flexibility and speed of use IMO. (especially on a older 17" macbook pro). you'll like to get the latest macbook pro along with the camera…
of course we should expect the H5D to make a jump over the H4D in every regard. so a few more dollars for the latest tech…
then we all know that the grass is greener on the other side and… in fact most of the more appreciated photographers almost never seem to care about the latest and the greatest tech… :)

paul
 

bcooter

New member
.............snip.......... I am a bit surprised you did not move to the EPIC...it has that build quality and robustness that exceeds most other equipment and can be configured any way you want.

No tethering but RAW in real time or 48FPS with a decent monitor for client viewing....just don't let them pick the stills.:ROTFL:

Graham has provided wonderful output to PS and 800 matches most anything out there....a bit small file but the Dragon chip will be better in DR and size and ISO....

Add Leica M lens compatibility, PL or Nikon mount and all day battery compatibility.....
You know the workflow and the process...and I am sure you would have done this already if it made sense....

Love to see how this plays out...the Contax system has served you well but not sure how much longer it will play at these levels...

Bob
Bob,

Thanks.

Dig the Leica lens on the Scarlet. Stuff like that give me a photo stiffy.

It's so cool when people go against the grain and do it there own way.

I mean that's why we did this . . . right . . . not to do it the way everyone else does?

Anyway . . .

We've used the R1's and Scarlet for stills.



Worked fine for waist up and tight shots, full length they always look a little soft, regardless of shutter, regardless of lens mount.

I just don't think motion stills are exactly there yet. Even small still cameras seem to produce a little better still image than our REDs, though I didn't buy an Epic, mainly because it didn't do much more than I needed over the Scarlet and I only use the Scarlet as a C camera. I love the R1's.

I'll test soon and find out what I want. I may stick with my Contax and probably would if they had that 40mpx ex Kodak sensor in a back.

But then again it's probably time to go to something more modern without going crazy.

Big part is I loathe the 35mm format in vertical position. Horizontal it's ok, Vertical just breaks my brain.

People will laugh at this but I love the look of the Pentax special edition.

Looks a little sissy, but I saw one in person and it's truly beautiful, but I don't think it's $5,800 more beautiful.



Love those old cameras dearly, but use them less than I'd like.

I also don't need really tricked out tethering software, just something that collects the images, because when we run eos utility we only use it to collect as we run everything to a folder in Adobe bridge.

Hey Doug, what don't you talk those Phase guys into letting blad and Pentax use there software? I don't think they'd mind . . . do you?

Anyway, thanks for all the replies.

BC

 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Welcome to the forum!

Test drive the Hasselblad H5D/40. It's the fastest H to date ... improved True Focus, better ergonomics, better weather sealing, higher capacity battery, attention to detail, blah, blah, blah. Very good ISO 800 and a decent 1600 if care is taken with exposure.

One feature I like on the H cameras is the one button manual WB setting, press the button, camera fires the WB shot and sets it, no menu etc.

Phocus v2.7.1 is much improved, faster tethering, more color control, etc.

The H5 is still FW800 and requires an adapter for Thunderbolt connections.

Nice looking camera.

Personally, I use a Leica S2 now for three reasons ... the lenses, the lenses, and ... the lenses. Being new, ground-up designs for digital, they have a feel and acuity of their own, and are all very consistent lens-to-lens. The S-120/2.5 APO Macro is the first MF lens that finally surpassed my beloved Zeiss 120/4 Macro from when I used a Contax 645.

The camera is pretty good too, easy to work with over longer periods of time, very simple elegant and fast interface, features a dual shutter with 1/4000 FP and 1/1000 leaf shutter ... not that means as much to you, but I do strobe work outdoors a lot.

Tethered interface is via Lightroom ... even though Leica has one of it own, it's a half hearted effort, Lightroom is faster and offers more non-distructive RAW adjustments than any other MFD software. Leica has provided the color profiles, and lens corrections (which some lenses hardly need).

I've shot full days with a tethered S2P and it was fine unless you machine gun it.

Also a nice looking camera system. Oozes build quality.

Did I mention the S lenses?

_Marc
 
You may want to look at a Hassy H4x with and iq 180 or 280. So you get the benefit of both with sensor + for the higher iso images. I have the H4x and iq140, love it,but would prefer a 40-50 mpx back with micro lenses, so we get a little larger p30+ file with the nice high iso's. or you could use the H4x with a H mount P30+, so you get the benefit of the newer camera technology/slicker look.
 

D&A

Well-known member
The one area I've experienced that Marc references in his post are the Leica S lenses. Each one I've tried were simply in a class of their own and as good as the Pentax 120mm f4 macro for the 645D was, the Leica macro was that much better when used with the Leica "S".

While on the subject of 645D and fashion, I had previously quoted the wrong names of well know photographers that use the 645D/Pentax. There is Kerrick James (who I mentioned previously) who extensively does travel/landscape photography I believe in Asia (Japan) quite extensively with the 645D and then there is Benjamin Kanarek, who shoots for Vogue and Harpers Bazaar with Pentax but not sure how much if any with the 645D.

Dave (D&A)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
You may want to look at a Hassy H4x with and iq 180 or 280. So you get the benefit of both with sensor + for the higher iso images. I have the H4x and iq140, love it,but would prefer a 40-50 mpx back with micro lenses, so we get a little larger p30+ file with the nice high iso's. or you could use the H4x with a H mount P30+, so you get the benefit of the newer camera technology/slicker look.
I actually like this idea but maybe with a faster IQ 160. This would still keep you in C1 tethering and give you a camera that looks good on set. I know its about Image but I do agree on the look on set. Seriously just having a MF system of 60 mpx I got a lot of comments from clients on how cool that is. Needless to say you invested that kind of money to produce there images. Believe it or not it does count. Yes it's marketing but we are in business and market ourselves as photographers, looking good is part of that marketing.

I shot thousands of sensor plus images at high ISO with the 160 and they are damn good.

Here is a article on the 160 with sensor plus

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/29252-phase-one-iq-160-sensor-plus-high-iso.html
 

bcooter

New member
Hey thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I gotta admit the phase is on my list, wish the Leaf did the pixel binning thing, it's still the camera I put it on that's the hang up.

I hate having to buy a second hand h1 then trade it in for an h4x then do the lens thing and well, lot of money, more time, more things.

I also admit I love the look of the H5d and the H4d Platinum.

Actually, call me a sissy but I dig the RED pentax, but 13.9 big bills is a lot for a Pentax.

BTW: The Leica is killer, except for the 2:3 crop. I really can't wrap my head around a 2:3 crop on a vertical, though horizontal it's great.

Leica has the bling, but it's also got the cost of a lambo for three lenses and by the time we add the floor mats.

Thanks everyone, I let you know as I go down this road.

BC



I actually like this idea but maybe with a faster IQ 160. This would still keep you in C1 tethering and give you a camera that looks good on set. I know its about Image but I do agree on the look on set. Seriously just having a MF system of 60 mpx I got a lot of comments from clients on how cool that is. Needless to say you invested that kind of money to produce there images. Believe it or not it does count. Yes it's marketing but we are in business and market ourselves as photographers, looking good is part of that marketing.

I shot thousands of sensor plus images at high ISO with the 160 and they are damn good.

Here is a article on the 160 with sensor plus

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/29252-phase-one-iq-160-sensor-plus-high-iso.html
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Hey thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I gotta admit the phase is on my list, wish the Leaf did the pixel binning thing, it's still the camera I put it on that's the hang up.

I hate having to buy a second hand h1 then trade it in for an h4x then do the lens thing and well, lot of money, more time, more things.

I also admit I love the look of the H5d and the H4d Platinum.

Actually, call me a sissy but I dig the RED pentax, but 13.9 big bills is a lot for a Pentax.

BTW: The Leica is killer, except for the 2:3 crop. I really can't wrap my head around a 2:3 crop on a vertical, though horizontal it's great.

Leica has the bling, but it's also got the cost of a lambo for three lenses and by the time we add the floor mats.

Thanks everyone, I let you know as I go down this road.

BC


There maybe a way around buying a H1 first. I love the Leica S but I still have some basic issues with it, cost , backup, repair and such but it is sexy. Not the biggest fan of 3:2 either although I'm living it now with my Nikons. But give me another year of medical bills and ill be back.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
From what I've seen/read, I really think the combination of the H4X paired with an IQ160 (or better yet IQ260) is the calling. The Phase DF+ seems to be a love/hate body in transition to a new camera body from Phase.

ken
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
H4X + IQ160 is a good piece of kit. We rent it often here in NYC.

Any good dealer can deal with any of the hassle Hasselblad has imposed by restricting the purchase of H4X to owners of H1/H2 bodies. So while it does add to the cost I would not worry about the hassle factor.

Or alternatively perhaps you could get creative and think of ways to pimp out a DF+. Custom paint job? Additional accessories?
 
I think the Pentax 645D may be due for an update soon. It came out around the same time as the Leica S2, but it has seen only a price drop with no new camera... at least not yet.

When I saw the red 645D pic I thought "wow sexy... damn that's a lot of buttons." Does it bother anyone else that it has what appears to be two sets of buttons and switches for every single function there is? They should have kept it just like their older 645NII, there was nothing wrong with that camera.

Any good dealer can deal with any of the hassle Hasselblad has imposed by restricting the purchase of H4X to owners of H1/H2 bodies. So while it does add to the cost I would not worry about the hassle factor.
A local dealer of mine has an H4X on the shelf with an IQ180 back on it. I'm pretty sure there are dealers in many places in the world that have them.

I tried out the S while there and it's carved from a solid block of obsidian by the dwarves of Middle Earth, if one tossed it, it would leave a crater at the point of impact - especially with the 120mm or 180mm on, those lenses are just monoliths. ISO800-1600 looks nice because the noise is totally monochromatic and there is no banding.

I'm by far not the most qualified person on this board to be giving advice, but I am interested in getting a ~40mp MF camera as well, and have been sitting on the fence for quite a while.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Okay this comment comes from someone that has had 5 backs so yes I'm a sick puppy but my point with Pentax and Leica body styles is 1st backup situation, you just need two of them for a true backup. Sure ways around that and I could do that easily I guess. My second point and again referring to the insane person I am, it's the damn upgrade path that scares me. Now I admit upgrading backs is no financial picnic either but I did them pretty gradually with fairly low costs when it comes to backs. My biggest hurt was P40 to the IQ 160 and that was costly but it also was a big jump both in technology and mpx. Again this comes from a Pro's seat and for the hobbyists may mean diddly squat. I do like the Pentax and Leica for what they bring to the MF market though so don't get me wrong about them.
 

Mammy645

New member
I think if you could put Phase backs on the Hy6 that would be my pick, that's one sexy camera, especially the new version. Phase has indicated they will be presenting their completely new camera 2013/14 though, might be a good idea to wait for that.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I think if you could put Phase backs on the Hy6 that would be my pick, that's one sexy camera, especially the new version. Phase has indicated they will be presenting their completely new camera 2013/14 though, might be a good idea to wait for that.
The Mamiya Leaf Credo 60 and 80 can be purchased in an Hy6 mount. This Team Phase One product is very similar in function, quality, and operation to a Phase One IQ.
 
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