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Phamiya with Metz CL-4

tashley

Subscriber Member
I have the above (CL-4 not CL-4 Digital) with SCA3952 and SCA3000 all as recommended. I can get decent exposures in Auto mode by lying to the flash about the aperture or the ISO but in TTL mode, no amount of change to the flash exposure compensation or the normal exposure compensation on the camera makes any difference whatsoever. I know people generally have said they don't favour TTL but the camera/flash combo are designed for it to work, it'll be useful for me and I'd like to get there!

I'm on body FW 1.2 and I wonder whether that might be the root of the issue?

Any help or suggestions very gratefully received!

Tim
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Tim, Sorry I cannot help you. As I indicated when you asked, I thought only the 54MZ3 was compatible with the AFD body and that's what I use. I can tell you the 54MZ3 and 3952 foot combo works as advertised, reading ISO set on the back and delivering decent TTL performance. (By decent I mean not as good as current Nikon TTL, but about on par with 2 generation old Nikon TTL :) )

The only thing I've found that doesn't work is the auto zoom if you set the flash to the 645 format readout dimensions. Left on 35 settings, the auto zoom works fine though, and automatically zooms to match whatever focal I have mounted.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Thanks Jack!

There's a table in the user manual that specifies which flashes will work on the body and which adapters are required and I should be well set with the combo I have. I've tried X mode, Ac mode and P mode and looked into all the custom function stuff and I think I have everything set correctly but images look identical even if I dial in -3 stops flash AND if I also dial in minus three stops regular exposure.

I think it's a FW thing but I'm not betting on an easy answer here...

:-(
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Tim:

Stupid question, but are you sure you have the flash set to "TTL" mode and not "A" mode on the flash LCD? I only ask because the results you describe would be consistent with the flash set in some mode other than TTL...

To clarify with my setup, if I set the flash to TTL and camera to Av mode: as I adjust the camera EV up or down the flash exposure remains constant while the background lighting increases or decreases respectively; if I adjust flash EV up or down, the background illumination remains constant while the flash exposure increases or decreases respectively.

If yours isn't doing that, then clearly something is amiss. One thing to check to confirm the camera and flash are communicating properly, as you adjust lens aperture from the camera, it should read out correctly and directly on the flash's rear LCD.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Hi Jack,

Those behaviours are what I would expect but am not getting. The flash is set to TTL and on this model there is no LCD display...

If I set the flash to Auto and then make exposure comp adjustments via lying to the flash about what ISO I'm using by dialing different ISOs into the dial on the flash I can get reasonable results.

t
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Bummer, that sucks. Sounds like it may be due to the different design of the flash units themselves...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Never mind... I started a support case at the Phase website... only now I can't work out where you go on the site to see progress on open support cases.

I'm sure all of this is down to my own stupidity!

;-)
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
My last straw with Phase One --> Merged with other Metz/Mamiya flash thread

OK, I apologise in advance for raining on anyone else's parade but I really do want to warn others not to invest in Phase systems without first being aware of my experience.

A recap: I considered the Hassy system against the Phase and ended up with a Phamiya kit with body, 80mm F2.8 lens and P45+ back - all at some very considerable expense.

The lens was faulty and, having gone through the rigmarole of proving that, it was replaced for one which works well. The charger was faulty too, and my dealer and I went through a further FOUR before we found one that worked correctly.

I purchased a Mamiya 28mm lens from my dealer. It was soft, as if smeared with vaseline. I returned it without replacing it.

Things settled down. The manual is bad but Guy kindly suggested I use the Mamiya version of the camera manual and that is better. I started to get some great, sharp shots with good detail and went through a week or two of not regretting my purchase.

Then in order to work on a project I have in mind, I purchased a Metz 45 CL-4 flash, along with SCA 3000c and SCA 3952 adaptors all as recommended in the Phase and Mamiya manuals, so I could get flash with in-body flash exposure compensation.

It didn't work as advertised when I tested it. Mind you, with this system I really am accustomed to that feeling.

So I raised a support case on the Phase website and after my explanations were incorrectly read and I re-stated my case, I finally got an email which culminated in the following:

"...the outlook is not good. Basically the unfortunate news is that Metz does not seem to make a cable that will properly communicate exposure compensation info automatically. "

In other words, much of the stuff in the manual about flash features is not true.

Caveat Emptor everyone. Caveat Emptor. I would not buy this system again.

Tim
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Weird. So Phase (or Mamiya) did not know that the Metz handle flashes that require the 3000 adapter cable and the 3952 foot would not communicate with the body? I wonder if Metz knows that? What's really weird is that IIRC, the AFD*2* body manual said the *only* flash that would work in TTL mode on the Mamiya body is the 54MZ3 with the 3952 foot. I have that combo and can confirm it worked as advertised on my AFD2 body and works perfectly on my AFD3 body as well. So one has to wonder why the AFD*3* manual says different and adds in the other flashes? Perhaps somebody assumed something they shouldn't have...

Anyway Tim, I have to agree with you. You have had more problems with the Phase/Mamiya system than anybody should have to put to up with, so it makes total sense you should move on to something else. Sounds like that move will be Hassy, so I hope Hassy is everything you want it to be.

PS: I am sending you a PM to put you in contact with another forum member who may be interested in working a trade with his Hassy system.

Best,
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I have the same flash as Jack and the same hot shoe and I am able to work the TTL as well.
Thanks guys: if I hadn't just shelled for all the Metz gear I just shelled for I'd take your advice cos I'm sure it's right: the difference is that 54 is shoe mounted so it doesn't need the SCA3000 adapter and what Phase seem to be saying is that that is where the problem lies. :cussing:

Me and Phase are cursed, that's for sure. But what I find amazing is that Mamiya have notes on file about all this flash problem and yet Phase is still putting out spec sheets and manuals that state clearly that the stuff works. Has no one other than me noticed this? Did Phase never bother to actually test a feature that takes up 4% of their manual?

On my dealer's counter there's an advertising mat for the P+ system that claims it offers 15 stops of DR. I asked him about it, saying that I'd heard that it was rather less. He replied that Phase don't make that claim any more.

I wonder what will be left once they've stripped out all the other stuff that simply isn't true? And how many customers?...
:cussing:
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Tashley,
I am a newbie with MF but did not go the phase but Sinar-Hy6-54-way.
I understand that you are frustrated-but frankly as much bad luck you had so far- I bet it only can get better. I wouldnt yet give up on the system if I were you.
One thing I have learned over the last weeks is that MF is just different in many ways not as comfortable and advanced as the modern SLR systems.

I guess most people would use professional lights often and therefore the Metz "problem" might not be a problem for them.

An example from my Hy6 system: The white balance presets of the Sinar back and software seem to be way off (in my experiece) - but as I understand the "typical" MF-user shoots a white/greay card anyways to get really accurate white balance-so its not a problem.

What I would like to say is that I am pretty sure there are some imperfect things in every system which need workarounds.

And if you have had 2 faulty lenses out of three I bet the next 5 ones should be fine. Just a statistic thing ;)

Cheers, Tom
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tashley,
I am a newbie with MF but did not go the phase but Sinar-Hy6-54-way.
I understand that you are frustrated-but frankly as much bad luck you had so far- I bet it only can get better. I wouldnt yet give up on the system if I were you.
One thing I have learned over the last weeks is that MF is just different in many ways not as comfortable and advanced as the modern SLR systems.

I guess most people would use professional lights often and therefore the Metz "problem" might not be a problem for them.

An example from my Hy6 system: The white balance presets of the Sinar back and software seem to be way off (in my experiece) - but as I understand the "typical" MF-user shoots a white/greay card anyways to get really accurate white balance-so its not a problem.

What I would like to say is that I am pretty sure there are some imperfect things in every system which need workarounds.

And if you have had 2 faulty lenses out of three I bet the next 5 ones should be fine. Just a statistic thing ;)

Cheers, Tom

Tom, you speak words of wisdom. Want to swap?

;-)
 

jonoslack

Active member
And if you have had 2 faulty lenses out of three I bet the next 5 ones should be fine. Just a statistic thing ;)

Cheers, Tom
Hmm Tom
Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Hmm Tom
Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.
Hey Jono! Nice to see you here... how's tricks? And thanks for the Christmas card, arrived today - lovely shot!

WRT the above - I must be on manufacturers' hit lists because of my unfortunate habit of checking things out... I kind of like 'em to work as advertised, what with having paid for them and everything!

;-)

T
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Hmm Tom
Where did you do statistics! (sounds like a sales department!)

but even if we agree to discount historicism, I'm afraid that Tim really REALLY checks things out, and on that basis I'd guess that out of the next 5 lenses at least 3 will be faulty.

Tim excuse me for poppering in - sorry you're having trouble . . . I hope there is sunlight (and great pictures) at the end of the tunnel.
Hey Jono! Nice to see you here... how's tricks? And thanks for the Christmas card, arrived today - lovely shot!

WRT the above - I must be on manufacturers' hit list because of my unfortunate habit of checking things out... I kind of like 'em to work as advertised, what with having paid for them and everything!

;-)

T
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hey Jono! Nice to see you here... how's tricks? And thanks for the Christmas card, arrived today - lovely shot!
Your Rough Santa shot was also fab . . . the Boxster is dirty though . . . didn't you say you'd come and clean it?
WRT the above - I must be on manufacturers' hit lists because of my unfortunate habit of checking things out... I kind of like 'em to work as advertised, what with having paid for them and everything!

;-)

T
I think they're winding you up :)

Actually, I think it's a serious issue, and that most people simply don't bother. I remember when a major professional Nikon dealer quietly replaced my 2nd 17-55 lens (after 3 24-120's), I asked them if this happened often, and the guy said that as far as he could remember nobody but me EVER returned lenses for optical problems . . .
 
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