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How Leica reinvented MFD...or not

RVB

Member
Love my S. I swapped my IQ 180, Arca bodies and four Schneider and Rodenstock lenses for an S and four lenses. I haven't looked back. For me for now tight integration (NO LCC!), ergonomics and robustness beat megapixels. Just a point of view. Only downside: no wide tilt shift.
A 30mm TS is in the work's... so far the range of glass is coming along nicely.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Shashin-"I have heard lots of folks "claim" they did not enter MFD because of the D800, but those folks probably would not have gone into the MFD market anyway."

Not true, I had the H3D, H4D, and an earlier S2 with only one lens available. I choose the Nikon D800 for several reasons. Lenses need to be selected carefully, but the Sigma 35mm 1.4 is the best lens i've used along with the Nikon 85mm 1.4G, and the Sigma maybe on par with Leica's Lux.. The sensor in the Pentax 645D is the same as the H4D (KAF 40000), so no improvement there. The Leica S is the only MFD camera that has lenses to match it perfectly - no adapter or film lens is going to convince me otherwise. I know Hasselblad has the HCD, but the H doesn't have the form factor of the S, and that has to be considered in long shoots or in the field. Now that the S has more selections, I would consider that camera again, but I do prefer 4:3 for portraits.
 
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doug

Well-known member
[the 645D] can use Hasselblad lenses as well as Pentax 67 lenses.
And the S can use Pentax 67, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya, and longer Leica-R lenses as well as the uniformly spectacular S lenses. I agree the pricing of the 645D is very attractive, but for native lenses the sample variation isn't and I have to wonder as others have what Ricoh/Pentax's commitment to the system is.
 

thrice

Active member
do you guys remember when the S system was announced? There was a 350mm lens in the product family photograph. What ever happened to that lens? I would have considered the S for wildlife if that lens would have ever made it out of the darkroom.

Leica S2 with 56% larger sensor than full frame: Digital Photography Review
The prototype is still in Solms. From what I gather it isn't coming to market just yet. But if you shoot that length and want that FL there is another AF enabled adapter coming...
 

thrice

Active member
Long term that lens, and another prototype which was shown at launch will come to market.

Another gap will be filled first with a native S lens.
 

RVB

Member
Care to quote your source? Or are you making it? :p
Source... Leica S2 First Impressions

"Announced for the CS system but not yet scheduled for release are five more lenses; an Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH, Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH, APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5, Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift, and Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH.

By the time that all seven lenses are shipping, with four more in CS configuration, the Leica S2 will have a lens compliment that is second to none in terms of range. As for optical quality, if Leica's century-long history as one of the world's great lens makers, the S2's published MTF charts, and my own initial testing are any indications, these may be among the finest photographic lenses ever made."

So far 2 of those five have already been released so there is no reason to believe the 30TS won't be.. Leica has clearly been very diligent with the S system,they know that a wide TS lens is a requirement....
 

D&A

Well-known member
And the S can use Pentax 67, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya, and longer Leica-R lenses as well as the uniformly spectacular S lenses. I agree the pricing of the 645D is very attractive, but for native lenses the sample variation isn't and I have to wonder as others have what Ricoh/Pentax's commitment to the system is.
Agree....for those that want to extract the most out of their 645D and FA (AF) lenses, they do have to both carefully test and select each focal length sample of lens they desire as well as carefully dial in Af fine tuning. If one considers the financial cost of putting together such a system, often times it can be worth it considering the relatively reasonable cots vs. other MFD systems. Is it perfect, no, but it definitely holds it's own when used with some of the better lenses and certain applications.

I've shot both the S2/S and 645D, including head on on a number of occasions (by using closely matched lenses) and there is no disputing the both the elegant design of the S2/S body as well as it's exquisitely performing lenses. It deserve all the accolades it has received and then some!

With that said there were certain applications where the 645D held it's ground well against the Leica. For close up work in a studio setting and in carefully matching lenses used on each system, such as the Leica and Pentax 120 macro lenses, the resulting files even when examined at 100% were extremely close and hard to tell apart. Same thing could be said for actual close up,macro work at 1:2 (Leica macro only goes to 1:2 whereas the Pentax goes to 1:1)...the resulting files were enar equals of one another.

These similarly produced files ended when the same lenses were used for longer distance shooting. The Leica most definitely had the edge in both central sharpness of the frame and easily bested the Pentax at the sides and edges. Again without looking at the Leica shots in this instance, the Pentax at actual pixels looked really good, but the when the Leica was brought into the equation, there was no comparison and most definitely was superior. Again this was examining files at 100%. Maybe the Pentax 120 macro by going to 1:1 is more optimized for closer range whereby the Leica 120 macro by only going to 1:2 is optimized for mid-distance.

I tried comparing a few other similar focal length lenses between the two systems and again, those Leica lenses are far superior without question but depending how the files are eventually going to be used with regards to output, the Pentax acquaints itself nicely and definitely shows it's superiority in my opinion to higher MP 35mm DSLR's. The newer Pentax 645 optics such as their image stabilized 90mm appears to up the ante in terms of the level of performance. As for support of the system, it's hard to know what Pentax has in store, but they are continuing to bring to market those lenses which have been on the drawing board and more are planned. It's though a very reasonable question and concern though.

The reason I am writing this is there is a lot of varying opinion regarding the 645D and I'm just trying to put it performance vis-a-vis its price range into perspective. If one is willing to do the testing and some leg work as opposed to knowing "out of the box" performance will be perfect (as with the Leica)...a very capable relatively cost effective MFD system can be achieved...and a versatile one at that. The 645D body, although maybe not the most elegant, was well thought out and has some very notable features. Simply it works day in and day out with little muss or fuss.

All great systems including the Hassy's and IQ's...just depends on budget, use and expectations of performance.

Dave (D&A)
 

D&A

Well-known member
I have a question for those that know well the Leica S/S2 system. Apparently some have been successful in mounting their R lenses via an adapter to the S bodies with little to no vignetting evident. They do though have to do a bit of shaving in the rear of the lens to avoid it hitting the mirror.

My question is if these 35mm "R" lenses can fill the image circle of the Leica S, why isn't there an adapter to use Pentax 645 lens on a Leica "S. The image circle of the Pentax 645 lenses must obviously be larger than Leica R lenses. I realize Leica has one for the Pentax 67 lenses but many of the Pentax 645 lenses are higher resolving and there are a multitude of very desirable lenses in the Pentax 645 line-up, including very low cost LS lenses, their 600 f5.6 lens and even their superb 300 f4 at a fraction of the cost of H and other MF lenses in the 300/400mm range. I'm not sure if an aftermarket adapte is made to mount Pentax 645 lenses to a Leica S body?

Dave (D&A)
 

RVB

Member
But it is a lot more than a Pentax 645D.
The 645D is certainly a lot of camera for the money,I would like to see CF card support in the next version and a broader range of glass,still i love the ergonomic's of the S and I believe it's almost 300grams lighter.. (although lenses are heavy)
 

D&A

Well-known member
The 645D is certainly a lot of camera for the money,I would like to see CF card support in the next version and a broader range of glass,still i love the ergonomic's of the S and I believe it's almost 300grams lighter.. (although lenses are heavy)
Quite a few would like to see Pentax broaden it's 645 lens line-up but many of it's recent additons are priced not all that far off from Leica S lenses....so hand picking some of the top performing legacy lenses is an appealing option for many on a budget.

Dave (D&A)
 
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Shashin

Well-known member
Current prices from B&H:

Pentax FA-D 55mm $1,200
Pentax FA-D 25mm $5,000
Pentax FA-D Macro 90mm $4,500

Leica S 70mm $5,000
Leica S 24mm $9,000
Leica S Macro 120mm $7,000

Dave, I am not sure those prices are really close. It would only cost me $10,700 to get three Pentax lenses, but $21,000 for the Leica. The focal lengths can't be duplicated--Leica has an unusual focal length spread. Only Pentax has a normal focal length lens--Leica has a short tele for the "normal." And the macro focal lengths are different. Naturally, I can get a great 120mm Pentax macro for a lot less--I wonder how the S secondhand markets is.

There is no doubt the S system is expensive. Add the body and you have a Pentax system for $17,700 and an S system for $43,000. I am not really convinced Leica is pricing is close to Pentax.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Don't get me wrong--I have no problem with Leica's pricing. It certainly is out of my reach, but then there are lots of stuff I can't afford. If Leica makes it work, more power to them. It certainly is a beautiful camera.

What I found amusing in the Forbe's promo piece was the claim by Leica that this was ten-years ahead of the competition. I am not sure they have seen the competition.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Shashin-"I have heard lots of folks "claim" they did not enter MFD because of the D800, but those folks probably would not have gone into the MFD market anyway."

Not true, I had the H3D, H4D, and an earlier S2 with only one lens available. I choose the Nikon D800 for several reasons. Lenses need to be selected carefully, but the Sigma 35mm 1.4 is the best lens i've used along with the Nikon 85mm 1.4G, and the Sigma maybe on par with Leica's Lux.. The sensor in the Pentax 645D is the same as the H4D (KAF 40000), so no improvement there. The Leica S is the only MFD camera that has lenses to match it perfectly - no adapter or film lens is going to convince me otherwise. I know Hasselblad has the HCD, but the H doesn't have the form factor of the S, and that has to be considered in long shoots or in the field. Now that the S has more selections, I would consider that camera again, but I do prefer 4:3 for portraits.
But you did enter the MFD market. I was talking about folks that didn't. So I still stand by my claim.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
And the S can use Pentax 67, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Mamiya, and longer Leica-R lenses as well as the uniformly spectacular S lenses. I agree the pricing of the 645D is very attractive, but for native lenses the sample variation isn't and I have to wonder as others have what Ricoh/Pentax's commitment to the system is.
Have you used a 645D and did you look for lenses for your system? I have not found any problems with sample variations. But if you are saying that non-Leica lenses are sub-par, having a lens adapter for "inferior" adapted lenses is not much of a draw. BTW, you can mount Leica Visoflex lenses to a 645D.

But you really need to ask Leica about their commitment to the S series. They released the lens adapter for the lenses for other manufacturers lenses. It seemed because they could not get lenses made for their system and needed something for their customers. A pretty desperate move for Leica. The S is a warmed-up S2. It is a fine camera, but no real jump in specs. More like fixes. Is this just another DMR? Leica seems to be willing to kill a line of products, even one with a long history like the R series.
 
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