First Shooting with the Leica S2

[yaya]

Time will tell but I would expect the S2 to be more expensive than the best 35mm yet slower with worse AF and high iso performance, yet inferior in terms of image quality to some of the MF solutions with similar or higher pixel count.

Heat build-up can be an issue especially if they're looking to utilise the 4 readouts on the chip (otherwise it is going to offer a fairly slow capture rate).

I heard 20,000,000 as the number of Euros that went into this project...if this is true it will need quite a few units sold to recover the costs...

all IMHO

yair

 

[dfarkas]

Guy,

I totally agree with you that Leica needs to step up and offer truly pro-level support and service. In January 2009, there should be an official announcement of a new pro support service in conjuction with the S2. Not sure what the details are, but we should see in a couple of weeks.

I actually think that besides image quality, there are other factors that make the S2 unique in MFD. It is the only weather-sealed MF camera, the only AF MFD camera with both focal plane shutter and leaf shutter (until Mamiya starts shipping leaf shutter lenses, at least), the smallest MFD camera, and it offers the fastest focusing and fastest frame rate, with the least amount of shutter lag and mirror blackout. The ergonomics are really a step above what is currently in the marketplace. So, I agree with you that ergonomics and other features are just as important as phenomenal lenses and outstanding image quality. And it will work with C1 and LR out of the box, so software is covered. Can it be used on a tech camera? No, but the reality is that those who will use a tech camera represent a much smaller niche than, say, photographers who want weather sealing and compact build.

As a dealer, of course I want to sell the S system, but as a photographer, this is the camera that I have been dreaming of for a really long time. I was in love with my DMR. It was the first digital camera I used that didn't feel digital. The R glass was/is outstanding and the S glass improves upon the best that the R lenses have to offer. I do think that lenses are important (even in MF), but that dicussion might have to wait until we start seeing more S2 sample images (preferrably DNG files). Bottom line is that I personally want to shoot with this system and am just as anxious for summer to arrive as anyone here. I am a photographer that loves to shoot and loves to print big and has a weakness for the best gear. I also happen to be lucky enough to be in the business. I sell cameras because I love to be around photography and talk cameras all day, not because it is just something to sell. Believe me, there are much more profitable things to sell than cameras. I do it because I truly love it, not just because it is a job.

Leica does listen to customers. Guy, you put together a wish list last year from l-camera-forum members for fixes to the M8 and submitted it to Stefan Daniel. 90% of those suggestions made their way into the M8.2. The S2 design and feature set was influenced heavily by direct input from pro photographers. Leica understands the needs pros like you have and is working hard behind the scenes to get the framework in place. I know that you have a close relationship with a mutual friend of ours at Leica, Christian Erhardt. As Christian has expanded his role to include service and support, I'm sure he has listened carefully to what you've had to say regarding pro-level support.

Leica is banking a lot on the success and market penetration of the S2. As a Leica insider, I see how seriously they are taking into account the wants and needs of professionals. Yes, the M8 was rushed to market (thanks to a certain ex-CEO), but is still ultimately a great camera. With the S2, working prototypes were shown nine months ahead of release (Nikon didn't even show the D3x at Photokina). This isn't a rushed camera, and I expect that any kinks or wrinkles will be ironed out before release in the summer.

David

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I agree David the S2 has a lot to offer and yes i am being very critical of them because they do listen to what Pro's like me say and they react to it. I love the relationship I have with Leica no question we get along very well and idea's and suggestions have come to light in the M8. I know i am being hard on them in these comments because they do listen and it's tough love sometime but in the end it is for the greater good for them and for us end users. I actually almost deleted my post but this is true and they need to know what is going to make it sell and do well. I want them to be successful and in turn want a product that i can stand on top of if you know what i mean. It has to work and has to produce with everything that goes into a complete system approach. From nuts to bolts we can't be out there in fear of failures and such. The new M8.2 is a lot nicer than the original version and maybe that is what it should have been out of the gate. Okay nothing wrong with growth and improving the system. The do need to keep costs down though and my biggest worry is they may price this S2 out of our means. Business is down all over for Pro shooters and costs need to reflect that too. I agree the kinks will be worked out before release and was even told they put a big time cushion in there just for this purpose which I think is smart. i think they should make a 100 or so units and get them out to the Pro's for trial about a month before release and get the needed feedback on firmware and such to help make it 100 percent out of the gate. It needs a new approach because it is a completely new system coming to market.
Also was not picking on you as a Leica dealer per say and i think you know that but Leica needs to fill the dealers shelves to and figure out a way to make that easy for the dealer to have plenty of stock on hand. People are going to want to come in and play with it before writing that check. It does not have the established system like Nikon and Canon when folks just mail order stuff. this one folks are going to want to get there hands on and try it.

 

[Mitchell]

I held the S2 for a minute or two at Photo Expo so I'm an authority. !:^)

Being a happy M8 owner, I wish Leica all success with the S2, but I doubt I'll buy it. I've heard people remark on how small and easy to handle the S2 is. But, to me it felt very heavy. Harder to handle than my Hy6. I know this is not a weight thing. It's that the Hy6 has a big adjustable handle which makes it very easy, and secure to lug around with one hand until you're ready to shoot with two hands. The Hy6 ergonomics are also great, not that I can judge the S2's which maybe equal. Plus the waist level finder.

So for me the big S2 advantage is weather sealing, not a small thing, but not enough to change systems.

Of course, image quality and high ISO are yet to be judged.

Best,

Mitchell

 

[stephengilbert]

Given the experience many of us have had with Leica's service (mine was actually good), I wonder about the impact of a high level pro service system on camera prices. (I assume lenses will be sorted out and not need to go home to Leica.) If you want a system that provides for the loan of an already expensive camera while yours is in Solms, it seems to me you'll be paying even more when you buy.

I guess if you have enough work for which the S2 is clearly better than what you're using now the calculation is different, but it seems to (an amateur like) me that the economics of the camera present a bigger problem than the design and production. It's one thing to buy a $5000 camera like the M8 and have it worth half that if you want to trade up in two years, but quite another to spend $20,000.

 

[Paratom]

@ Stephen:
actually the M8 is the camera with the best holding its value from all digitals I had so far.
I replaced one M8 with a M8.2 and could sell the 1 year old M8 (I paid about 3800 € new) for over 3000 €.
I have had several digital SLRs from Canon, Olympus and Nikon in the past and they all lost value faster.

@ Mitchel: while I liked the size and feel of the S2 I agree on the weight. It felt much heavier than it looked. I wouldnt mind that much though.


For me it would be the follwing factors making the S2 interesting or not:
1) Is the AF better than other MF cameras? Is it more like a dslr?
2) Are the Leica lenses clearly better than other MF systems?
3) does it have an iso advantage?
4) price

Right now I like using 2 systems. A "real" MF with MF-feel and a "real" SLR with SLR feel and speed.
If one would have to keep a DSLR (like D3) fro speed and real high ISO and for Tele anyways - would one really go the S2 route or rather a "real" MF-camera?

I might be more interested in the R10

 

[stephengilbert]

T, My point wasn't that the M8 lost value faster than other cameras; I don't know about that. All I was saying is that the likely much higher prices and losses involved in such a transaction with the S2 are something that people will have to consider and that may be a problem. What I neglected to say is that if the S2 works as people hope it will, it could be a camera that one will buy and keep for a long time.

 

[dfarkas]

@ Stephen:
actually the M8 is the camera with the best holding its value from all digitals I had so far.
I replaced one M8 with a M8.2 and could sell the 1 year old M8 (I paid about 3800 € new) for over 3000 €.
I have had several digital SLRs from Canon, Olympus and Nikon in the past and they all lost value faster.

@ Mitchel: while I liked the size and feel of the S2 I agree on the weight. It felt much heavier than it looked. I wouldnt mind that much though.


For me it would be the follwing factors making the S2 interesting or not:
1) Is the AF better than other MF cameras? Is it more like a dslr?
2) Are the Leica lenses clearly better than other MF systems?
3) does it have an iso advantage?
4) price

Right now I like using 2 systems. A "real" MF with MF-feel and a "real" SLR with SLR feel and speed.
If one would have to keep a DSLR (like D3) fro speed and real high ISO and for Tele anyways - would one really go the S2 route or rather a "real" MF-camera?

I might be more interested in the R10

Agree on the residual value. Nikon D2x was $5000. Less than two years later it was $1000, 20% of its inital value. The first M8s were $4795. Two years later we were giving $2800 in trade-in value, 60%. So, for digital, this is pretty darn good.

Regarding the weight issue, the S2 body currently weighs 1.3kg (2lbs 13oz). This is same weight of the D3x. I was told that the prototype is machined from aluminum, but the production cameras will be made of cast magnesium allow, which should weigh a few ounces/grams less. So, the S2 will actually be smaller and lighter than a D3x or 1DsIII.

I am very curious to see what the R10 will be as well, but for my shooting style, I am personally more tempted by the S2.

David

 

[carstenw]

Time will tell but I would expect the S2 to be more expensive than the best 35mm yet slower with worse AF and high iso performance, yet inferior in terms of image quality to some of the MF solutions with similar or higher pixel count.

Right, but luckily for Leica, they don't have to make a camera which trumps every system's strengths. They just have to make a compelling compromise.

I don't personally expect any quality penalty from using the S2 compared to any similar-resolution MF camera. You will have to go to a 50MP or 60MP MF camera to see gains, and even then, we all know that it is diminishing returns that high. Very few people will want to pay more for more MPs than an S2 can offer, just for resolution or any other aspect of IQ.

It won't have the same flexibility (wrt. LF adaptation and view-finder options), but the lenses will almost certainly be at the very least the equal of anything out there, and quite possibly significantly better than the majority. The Mamiya 45mm "D" disappointment, for example, would not happen with a Leica lens.

In the end, rather than being slower and more expensive than DSLRs and less flexible than MF, one could equally well say that it is significantly faster and easier to use than MF, but with a significantly higher IQ than DSLRs. That makes it very compelling for certain types of users, perhaps especially studio fashion photographers, typically a battlefield between DSLRs and MF.

My personal guess is that if Leica gets the mix of price and performance right, both MF and DSLRs will lose a small chunk of their traditional market. DLSRs probably less so, simply due to their massive price advantage.

 

[Geoff]

I'm hoping to be surprised. I guess I'm jaded having seen the Sinar M under a coat of dust in a local shop here. The well-engineered, out of the normal arrangement, superbly lensed European product for big $.... well, its hard to get traction in the larger marketplace if one is out of the norm and expensive.

Perhaps its a question of numbers - if you wanted to sell say 2000 of them, that's one thing - and there is a small group that will support that. Between European pros, Leica buffs, and well-heeled sorts in the US, that size of market is available. However, if the target is 20,000 units, that is another issue.

Leica clearly wants to bring DSLR ease to MF sensor capability. The worry is where such a heavily engineered new product ends up in the $/value range. It seems that it will require all new (proprietary) lenses, also not cheap.

Leica can clearly engineer a quality product - and I have little doubt (after the DMR) that it will be a quality product. But can they invent a sizeable niche in the middle of the market for such a camera? Given the recent price trends for the M8.2, lenses, and the cost threshold for well-engineered and made European products, there is ample reason for concern.

Please, someone, prove this wrong! Maybe they really have this all figured out - but what if they did their analysis based on MF digital backs at $20-30k, and the cost of those backs in a year is say $10-20k? Still so eager?

 

[carstenw]

The backs are already much cheaper now, so I guess that I take the fact that Leica is forging ahead as a good sign. I presume that they have done best-case/worst-case analysis, and that even their worst case holds up. This might be what is happening now with the MF DB prices falling so fast.

 

[yaya]

I don't personally expect any quality penalty from using the S2 compared to any similar-resolution MF camera. You will have to go to a 50MP or 60MP MF camera to see gains, and even then, we all know that it is diminishing returns that high. Very few people will want to pay more for more MPs than an S2 can offer, just for resolution or any other aspect of IQ.

In the end, rather than being slower and more expensive than DSLRs and less flexible than MF, one could equally well say that it is significantly faster and easier to use than MF, but with a significantly higher IQ than DSLRs. That makes it very compelling for certain types of users, perhaps especially studio fashion photographers, typically a battlefield between DSLRs and MF.

Like I said time will tell but whenever it comes out it would be interesting to run it head-to-head against let's say an AFi-II 7 (33MP, 20K EURO inc. 80/ 180mm) in a studio, tethered to a laptop and a 2nd 30" ACD and to see how well it copes with a fashion shoot...what is the buffer like, if any and how does the file quality compare.

Regarding size and weight, both the 1Ds and the D3x have a built in vertical grip (with quite allot of battery power in it).
Add a grip to the Leica and it becomes much bigger and heavier. I agree that the prototypes feel very heavy but they are not the final product.

Yair

 

[hvk]

I was looking around today, trying to find published MTFs on Mamiya and Hasselblad HC lenses without any luck. Anyone know where such info can be found?
David

You need to try harder...

http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets.aspx

/Henrik

 

[dfarkas]

You need to try harder...

http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets.aspx

/Henrik

Thank you for the link. Much appreciated. Now I just need to find data on the Mamiya 645AF lenses.

Okay, so time for some comparisons.

First up is the 35 group. It is worth noting that the Leica chart is at f/2.5 and f/5.6 respectively, while the Hasselblad one is at f/3.5 and f/8. I'd say there is a pretty big difference here, but you can judge for yourself.

David

 

[dfarkas]

Next up is the normal lenses: 80mm for Hasselblad and 70mm for Leica. The only difference in the charts here is that the Leica is being tested at f/2.5 vs. f/2.8 for the Hasselblad. Again, judge for yourself, but I was told by Peter Karbe that this lens performs very much like the 50mm Summilux-M ASPH (but better).

David

 

[dfarkas]

Next we have the 120mm Macro lenses, f/2.5 for Leica and f/4 for Hasselblad. So, be aware that the Hasselblad chart is at f/4 and f/8 and that the Leica chart is at f/2.5 and f/5.6. Peter said this lens performs like the 100 APO Macro-R, but better.

David

 

[dfarkas]

Lasty, we have the Hasselblad 210mm vs. the Leica 180mm. I decided to use the 210 instead of the 150 as it is closer in effective focal length and intended use. Arbitrary choice on my part.

Again, different charts. f/4 and f/8 for Hasselblad and f/3.5 and f/5.6 for Leica. Enjoy.

David

 

[PeterA]

Leica knows something about viewfinder brightness. If you have ever looked through an R8 or R9 you know that already. Also, apparently the SL had the best viewfinder of all time. With an R8, I found it easy to focus the 180 Cron exceedingly exactly. I expect the S2 viewfinder to trump all the 645 cameras, and at least be on par with the 6x6 cameras.

Carsten why would you expect the S2 viewfinder to trump all 645 cameras ? What do you base this opinion on?:ROTFL::ROTFL:

If the S2 can trump my lowly H3D11 viewfinder I would be ecstatic - because NOTHING in SLR land comes anywhere near close to the brightness of the Hasselblad finder - you would know this if you used one. The Mamiya viewfinder and the Contax viewfinders are dark tunnels in comparison - both of which btw kill the R9 viewfinder with or without DMR attached.

Regarding 6x6 brightness - I can only compare with 205 and 500CW finders and Mamiya RZ finders - both excellent with the Hasselblad easier to focus. I would doubt very much that the S2 can be this bright anyway..

I would buy an S2 because I am a Leica NUT - I am a Leicaa FANBOY.<--- note full stop.:clap::clap:

Also hilarious to read people consistently suggesting that Leica is going to target the typical 'working pro'..man what a crowded field!!!

better to focus on well heeled collectors and fanboyz - we will pay. btw - if 20,000,000 Euros was the cost - then that means 2,000 @ 10,000 or 1,000 @ 20,000 for break even -the question is - who are these 2000 users? They should start a special club immediately - and focus attention on these people - because WE are the real market for Leica.:grin:

Happy to take contra views on this - it will be great news for Leica.

 

[carstenw]

Carsten why would you expect the S2 viewfinder to trump all 645 cameras ? What do you base this opinion on?:ROTFL::ROTFL:

Maybe I am be wrong, but of all viewfinders I have seen (and I admittedly haven't seen the H3D) I preferred the R8/R9 for manual focusing. Note that some are brighter, but none were better for focusing. So, I expect Leica to make no mistakes here. I do prefer the R8 to my Contax 645, specifically. The latter is larger, but it was easier to focus the R8.

In fact, there are people here who have seen and held the S2 at Photokina. Did anyone try manual focusing with it, and can compare to the H3D? That is probably the acid test here.

 

[Geoff]

Maybe I am be wrong, but of all viewfinders I have seen (and I admittedly haven't seen the H3D) I preferred the R8/R9 for manual focusing. Note that some are brighter, but none were better for focusing. So, I expect Leica to make no mistakes here. I do prefer the R8 to my Contax 645, specifically. The latter is larger, but it was easier to focus the R8.

In fact, there are people here who have seen and held the S2 at Photokina. Did anyone try manual focusing with it, and can compare to the H3D? That is probably the acid test here.

R8/R9 viewfinder was amazing delightful to use. Hassy viewfinder also very good, bright and open (seat of the pants impressions). Either would be just fine.

The MTF charts are pretty impressive. The new lenses show remarkably well. Congrats to Leica for making them.

If the development cost is right, it has to be spread over the number of cameras, plus the actual cost of making the camera. Say 3-5k Euro per camera (to make it), and add that on too?