First Shooting with the Leica S2

[Mark Gowin]

I received a Leica S System Newsletter email today which has a link to the first shoot with a prototype S2.

http://www.s.leica-camera.com/robert-grischek/?mid=429

It is difficult determine much about the image quality from the photos posted, but there is an interview with the photographer and he seemed impressed. I know I really liked the handling of the S2 when I saw it at PhotoPlus. It was love at first sight. I am anxiously awaiting official pricing before I get to worked up about it, but it definitely has my interest. Anyway here is a photo of me (taken by Justin with my M8) with the S2 at PhotoPlus which give a good size reference.

 

[woodyspedden]

Mark

To me the incredible thing about the S2 is its super small size compared to other "medium format" cameras. This is smaller than the Nikon D3 and has three times the pixels and then those "yummie Leica lenses."

Now if would only come in at about $10 grand we would declare this a winner

Woody

 

[Geoff]

Don't we all wish. What will you bet it'll be $20k+ with a lens or two....

 

[Mark Gowin]

You are right Woody. I think price will be one of the most important factors in the success or failure of the S2. An aggressive entry price would go a long way toward attracting buyers and establish a base of customers that success can be built upon. Leica has said repeatedly that S2 pricing will be competitive to other digital MF systems (similar resolution). I just hope Leica doesn't put too much of a premium for their name. I would love to see it come in at $10k, but I will be surprised if it is less than $20k. I am keenly interested in this system - Leica glass and a 37 mp MF sensor sounds like a great combination.

Mark

 

[dfarkas]

Mark,

The S2 looks good on you, buddy!

David

 

[ReeRay]

Don't we all wish. What will you bet it'll be $20k+ with a lens or two....

The initial indication was $25,000 BODY ONLY!

 

[carstenw]

Well, the quote was between 10000 and 20000 Euro, with the expressed hope (and I guess more than just hope, given how conservative Leica is in such things), that it would come in at less than 15000 Euro. That is somewhat less than 25K$, and if the economy and currency improves before then, even less. It was never mentioned if that would be body-only, or with the 70mm lens. I presume body-only, but maybe that was deliberately left open as well.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Looks good so far but I do want to see the raw files myself. At the moment it is not putting my system up on the block. It's good but i want to see tremendous. I want to hear specific words come out of my mouth when i see the files. Sorry folks but this was not a grueling test on any camera. It's all controlled with one model and most of it is lighting. Next newsletter please. There REALLY going to have to sell me on it.

What I really want is Leica to lend me one for our workshop next month just before PMA. Okay I put the plug out there. Trust me i will give it a grueling test.

This way we can see how it stacks up against the P25, P30 , P45 and P65 . Plus the M8's, Hassy 39 and 31 and hopefully some Leaf backs.

 

[PeterA]

Actually file quality I am sure will be just great - who makes a bad MF chip these days? Workflow is set to be Capture One so that box is ticked...

I am wondering if it will be easier to shoot with hand held than my MF bodies - @ 25/40 + megapixels it is an important consideration - the whole issue of hand holdability - especially with Leaf shutter lenses. If it is easier to get a sharp shot than a Contax - that would be an incentive for me.

The other big deal is viewfinder brightness and size - the BRIGHTER the better and I prefer some space around an etched capture area for composition - magnification factors required please as well as interchangeable viewfinders with split screen as an option for peopel like me who prefer manual focus mostly.

The other factor is image stabilisation - I am hoping for some good news here - that would differentiate the system immediately from the traditional MF bodies and lenses.

Finally - I hope that there is a neat way to clean the chip - if this is a pro camera designed for rugged useage..chip cleaning has to be easy.

 

[carstenw]

Leica knows something about viewfinder brightness. If you have ever looked through an R8 or R9 you know that already. Also, apparently the SL had the best viewfinder of all time. With an R8, I found it easy to focus the 180 Cron exceedingly exactly. I expect the S2 viewfinder to trump all the 645 cameras, and at least be on par with the 6x6 cameras.

 

[LJL]

I got the same email and went to check the portfolio. As already mentioned, nothing much one can tell about resolution, etc., from the reduced JPEGs, but the colors did look nice. It seemed to hold the skintones while still being able to handle the various gelled lights from darker shadows through bright end. It was interesting to hear the photog mention that the files are easy to work with and very robust (this is great news).

Not getting hung up on the price part yet, as it is still at least 6 months away, and a lot can happen there. I think Leica is banking a lot on this, so an aggressive pricing AND making it available in rental houses could be very important for success. Did notice that they only had the CS lenses listed on the "system" page, though the photo showed the others. Would really like to get more info on those lenses also.

As Peter mentions, image stabilization could be a nice feature, but it would have to be in the body and not sure if there would be a different mechanism needed for CS versus FP lenses. Maybe not, but just not sure what they have working inside. I think it would differentiate the S2 from other MF cameras also, but only if they got it right and it really worked without compromising shooting.

All in all, it is still looking like quite a nice entry to the market, and maybe able to fill the needs/wants of a fair number of folks that use this kind of gear. Getting folks to switch from existing MF gear may be a bigger hurdle than getting folks to migrate up from 35mm DSLRs if they price it for folks to really buy it. I know that I have been holding out, waiting to see how the S2 comes in both on performance and price, but things are leaning in its favor for me right now....just want to see economic improvement and a reasonable price on the body and lenses. I still think this could be a real winner.

LJ

 

[Paratom]

Well, the quote was between 10000 and 20000 Euro, with the expressed hope (and I guess more than just hope, given how conservative Leica is in such things), that it would come in at less than 15000 Euro. That is somewhat less than 25K$, and if the economy and currency improves before then, even less. It was never mentioned if that would be body-only, or with the 70mm lens. I presume body-only, but maybe that was deliberately left open as well.

What I heard from Leica was saying pricing competitive to other MF systems.
For my understanding this means the S2 should not be more expensive than a Hassy 31MP or a phase with P30+ back.
The other info I heard was that the lenses wouldnt me much more "expensive" than The Leica R lenses.

 

[Mark Gowin]

The other big deal is viewfinder brightness and size - the BRIGHTER the better and I prefer some space around an etched capture area for composition - magnification factors required please as well as interchangeable viewfinders with split screen as an option for peopel like me who prefer manual focus mostly.

The viewfinder of the handmade prototype S2 shown at PhotoPlus was outstanding - very large, bright, and a joy to look through. I don't recall seeing frame lines in the viewfinder so I'm thinking the entire viewfinder is the capture area. It would be nice if my memory is off on this one because I like the idea of frame lines for composition. David Farkus or someone else who has handled the camera may recall better than me.

Mark

 

[carstenw]

I think that the 37MP body should rather be compared to the 39MP competition on price, not the 31MP. Or why did you choose the 31s?

 

[Paratom]

I think that the 37MP body should rather be compared to the 39MP competition on price, not the 31MP. Or why did you choose the 31s?

Carsten, probably you are right - maybe just my wishfull thinking.

I was refering more to the size and tyoe of sensor and less on the MP

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think that the 37MP body should rather be compared to the 39MP competition on price, not the 31MP. Or why did you choose the 31s?

Actually the S2 is more in line with the 31 with micro sensors but more in line with the P65 with 6 microns BUT and this is a big one it obviously given the same micron size as the P65 in real estate is only slightly bigger than half the the actually size of the P65 even though the dimensions will be different the total area is just more than half. This is the interesting part, it is a small sensor in relative terms compared to 645 format. So pricing on this will be interesting if there going what the market will bare in MF. Seriously and I am not joking here they should almost give this away at cost. Reason why i say this and it seems strange but it is brand new and I mean brand new in all sense of the word. Get the market rolling on it sell 2000 units at 10 percent above costs and get this in the hands of people and get the buzz going on it than slowly raise the prices as it get's in more hands after the first 2k. They need to bring something to the party for folks to jump into a unproven system that offers no used lens options and prove they are worthy of the Pro market in the real world with service , support and all that. I know this sounds nuts but anything like this kind of pricing to get the system proven is the key. Now it could be many things and many ways of doing this but coming out of the gate at 30k with 4 lenses is suicide and I will NOT switch like this and many others will not either. They have to prove themselves to the market first, the only way to do that is get it in the hands of people and they need some discount way of doing that and than go up from there.

 

[robsteve]

The other info I heard was that the lenses wouldnt me much more "expensive" than The Leica R lenses.

Not more expensive than which Leica R lenses? I hope the S lenses are not in the same price range as say the 180mm APO-Summicron

Robert

 

[robsteve]

The link at the top of this thread has some images in it. Most were pretty small. This one wasn't a bad size. You would think there would be moire in this.

I don't see any Moire here:

 

[dfarkas]

There are no framelines because the viewfinder is full frame relative to the sensor.

BTW, did anyone check out the MTFs on these first four CS lenses? Wow! I was looking around today, trying to find published MTFs on Mamiya and Hasselblad HC lenses without any luck. Anyone know where such info can be found? I'm keen to compare the Leica 35 f/2.5 ASPH with the Mamiya 35 f/3.5 and the HC 35 f/3.5... not to mention the other three as well. Should be fun.

The other non-CS lenses (24, 30 T/S, 30-90, 100, and 350) should be rolled out in the six months following the release of the S2 with the initial four CS lenses (35, 70, 120 Macro, 180). The priority is on the CS lenses, as these have the most appeal to fashion shooters and rental houses.

I'm serious about those MTF charts. Who knows where to get them?

David

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Not sure David but the Mamiya 35mm is a old design and is acceptable. It is not there best lens and no one would argue that one. The new 80 D and 150 d are by far much better and we even seen that with a 60 mpx sensor. Honestly after shooting MF having the best highest resolving lenses is not nearly as important as it is in 35mm format and actually not even close to that need 35 has. Of course having good lenses counts but just like film medium format the bottom line comes down to bigger is just flat out better and digital is not any different. No question the sensors in all of the MF will handle anything thrown at it pretty much , sure there will be some limits with glass but after shooting the P65 Plus i do question how great the lenses really need to be in MF , obviously i have the P65 images here and they are shot with a variety of Mamiya glass and i certainly do not see any shortcomings. Even the Schnieder lenses that are supposed to be superior in every way are not miles above it. Trust me when you get this big the pixel peaking comes to a halt. The images are just popping off the screen and huge prints can be made and that is extremely satisfying. Any of these MF system will get it done. What I find MUCH more important is functions , ergonomics and software really that is the part that is much more important. This comes from one of the biggest lens whores around. I seriously have taken a different view on glass when you hit this format size and until you start shooting it daily you realize the other things matter more. The S2 will produce a great image i will bet big money on that but the other factors are much more important and frankly David and i am a big Leica fan but if they can't do better in terms of service , support , rentals , loaners and stability of camera than there will not be many Pro's even thinking about it. You Leica dealers want to sell S2's. Than get on leica's case and give them this real feedback because without PROVE that this is the cats meow than no one in there right mind will just cut you a 30 k check on faith. That is the reality and I don't care how damn good the lenses are it HAS to work on all 12 cylinder engines. There is much more to this than glass and mechanics. You want my 30k than someone needs to figure out how to get that out of my pocket along with many other Pro's. We need to remember this simple fact it is not how good leica can make this but how good it will make the photographer work. Let us not lose sight of that, yes it is all about the end user.

I know that sounds very critical but the hard fact is this there coming into a new market that they have no prove they can succeed at it, not saying they can't do it but they need all 100 parts to it and not 92 parts to it. We users need prove they can pull this off and not just the hardware

Now that being said there are still some shortcomings in MF to begin with on almost all the systems. Obviously nothing is perfect but my expectations are really high on this one.