Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

[GrahamWelland]

The additional Alpa accessory required to provide rear-only movements on the Max is not a feature of the body. No accessories are listed in the overview. One could say that ANY body (including Canon/Nikon) has "rear only" movements if you clamp the lens down to the tripod.

I think most Alpa folks would consider the stitch adapter a 'mandatory option' for the MAX. I know that it was the first thing I bought for mine when I had it. Somewhat similar to a back adapter being mandatory for any of the bodies ...

 

[darr]

Give it up Doug, you are bias and anyone that uses an Alpa knows it!

 

[gerald.d]

The additional Alpa accessory required to provide rear-only movements on the Max is not a feature of the body. No accessories are listed in the overview. One could say that ANY body (including Canon/Nikon) has "rear only" movements if you clamp the lens down to the tripod.

Well, that's any remaining credibility totally shot to pieces.

Disgraceful sales tactics.

 

[jlm]

tough crowd

 

[GrahamWelland]

Knowing Doug I actually think that he's trying to be fair by including the Alpa gear in his comparisons but it is important that the information there is accurate. We can help with that constructively and if it's not updated well that's a different situation.

Obviously we have to expect some bias otherwise he's not doing his job (Hey, I'm in technical sales too!)

 

[Dogs857]

Tough crowd indeed.

Ok I am new here and as such don't know the background (if any) between you blokes.

However as a "newbie" who has been doing a lot of reading trying to nail down my ideal "kit" I have found this resource quite useful. At the end of the day I highly doubt anyone will commit to spending the equivalent of a small nations budget on camera gear just by reading one review alone. The same could be said for this chart Doug has put together.

I know the Alpa has an adaptor to allow all movements on the back. So it's not a huge issue that it's not written up as such, as long as the movements are there. I don't think it is included as slight against Alpa. I think the fact that he includes Alpa even though he doesn't sell them is a good thing. It brings all the info into one place for those who are looking at making the jump. As for bias, well isn't everyone?? From what I understand Alpa users love Alpa, Arca users love Arca and the Cambo crowd seem to be a bit quieter. I am sure they still love their gear but are less inclined to get on the front foot about it.

As for asking to contact them to see the costs page, that is not unusual either. Yes Alpa have their prices on their website but unless you live in Switzerland then it is not that helpful. I can assure you that is has little to no relevance to prices in Oz. In fact for me to buy a body and 3 lenses with all the adaptors etc it is almost cheaper for me to fly to Switzerland and pick them up from the factory. Almost every dealer I have contacted regarding kit both in Oz and the US has not listed prices on their websites. Capture Integration are an exception here but they don't have lens prices.

I have been in contact with Michelle at DT as well as Jeff at Fotocare and Dave at CI with regards to kit. Everyone has been exceptionally helpful and not at all pushy in regards to sales. I am heading to the US and wanted to try before I buy. Anyone in their right mind should do this. I might think the Apla Max, the Cambo WRS or Arca Rm3di is the right camera for me, but until I try it I will never know.

This resource is a handy guide, but that's all it is. Thanks DT for putting this together and I can assure you that I have found it quite helpful.

 

[darr]

Dogs857,
You make valid points. I own Alpa and Arca Swiss and I agree you need to hold them both and use them to see the differences. I would never trade my Alpa for an Arca R series for various reasons, but have been happy with the reliability of the Arca ML2 for a couple of years, but like all cameras, it has its limitations.

Resell value and availability of items is an important factor for me. Alpa gear used is about the price of Alpa gear new, and Arca gear, at least recently from what I have been watching on various forums and eBay, does not resell as quickly and as well, value wise. I cannot speak for the Cambo gear, but I do think it is popular.

The biggest gripe I have with dealers that make postings that appear to be "valuable," is their real target is to find people like you, looking for gear to buy and not really telling the whole story because they themselves do not know the whole story. They use tables of figures and not user experience; sometimes when you are making art, those numbers mean absolutely nothing and cripple some from making it all together.

I wish you luck being able to try out the systems, I am guessing it will be a difficult task to find an Alpa, Arca and Cambo in one trip to try out. Be careful of workshops before you book because if you have a family emergency you could loose a chunk of change there -- I lost $4000 because of one. The MF buying experience from my side has been a very positive one when I buy used from fellow photographers and not always so from dealers. I found trying to get Arca Swiss pieces at times to be absolutely nuts! The price you pay for this stuff is nuts x2, but we do it because we love our calling to the art.

Good luck to you!!

 

[gerald.d]

Knowing Doug I actually think that he's trying to be fair by including the Alpa gear in his comparisons but it is important that the information there is accurate. We can help with that constructively and if it's not updated well that's a different situation.

Hi Graham -

The problem here is that Doug has made it very clear that he believes it to be a valid comparison between the cameras by ignoring the shift adapter for the Max. Also, I rather suspect that the XY actually ships with its stitching column included, but perhaps because it's a separate piece of metal, it's being deemed an accessory too?

"The additional Alpa accessory required to provide rear-only movements on the Max is not a feature of the body. No accessories are listed in the overview. One could say that ANY body (including Canon/Nikon) has "rear only" movements if you clamp the lens down to the tripod."

Clearly we're past the stage of "oops - thanks, I'll correct that".

When someone makes the decision to go for either Alpa, Arca, or Cambo (or any of the other peripheral options out there), they are not just buying a camera. They're buying into a system.

It is completely disingenuous to offer this table up under the pretense that it's some kind of objective analysis that will assist people in making the decision as to which system to buy into.


Regards,

Gerald.

/edit

Just to add -

Come at this from the perspective of someone new to tech cams. Someone who knows next to nothing about the capabilities of the 3 different systems. Someone who is going to be looking for a camera that can rise/fall/shift the back.

"This page is provided to help guide our customers early in their process of selecting the body and lenses that best match their needs and budget."

Great resource! Let's investigate and see what meets their requirements.

According to the table, there are no Alpa cameras capable of using rise/fall and shift on the back at the same time.

Right then. That's 1/3 down. Now to call Capture Integration to get them to help me pick from Arca or Cambo.

The whole thing stinks.

 

[jotloob]

Buying into a MF Digital system is not just buying a camera . We are talking here about a fair amount of
often hard earned money . Therefore , good advise can be very helpful .
I had no advise and decided all myself . My dealer is a nut , but there are so many nuts around in the photo business .

But how can Doug , or might I better say , his company , advise customers (and they claim to be advisors)
if they do not deal with ALPA , and do obviously not know much about the ALPA system .
I do not blame them for that , because no dealer has and can have all of the leading systems in their portfolio .
Not even talking about the other less known systems like SILVESTRI , HORSEMAN and SINAR .
But Doug could have come up with the idea of his TECHNICAL CAMERA SPEC SUMMARY and say
Hey you guys , I want to do this , but as I am not so familiar with ALPA , can you please assist and give me details
where I do not have them .

But the way he has started the SUMMARY PROJECT gives me the impression , that he more or less would like to ignore
the existence of the ALPA System
and make people believe the TECH CAMERA WORLD has only two names .

 

[PeterA]

Cut Doug some slack guys -not every dealer is allowed to sell Alpa in fact IMHO far too few. I believe I was the first to make a post on GETDPI regarding Alpa since I have been using Alpa for over ten years now as good as Alpa is at what it does - but now there are many many experts who post on here about Alpa.

However , there are other alternatives capable of doing as good a job - eg in artec's case capable of doing stuff no Alpa can and yet we hear NOTHING about these Sinar systems - because everything any individual buys is by definition got to be the best or some claptrap the herd mentality in here si very funny to see and follow guys

these tech cameras are a tiny niche product supported by niche lens manufacture batch runs and bought by well heeled eccentrics ( like us) for silly dollars

Guys like Doug/Yaya who post are doing us all a service - if you think they are pro this or that - so what? I concentrate on the information I can get as long as it is accurate

All the best
Pete

 

[gerald.d]

Cut him some slack for what?

Deliberately misrepresenting the functionality of a system he doesn't sell, that is a direct competitor to those that he does?

Do you really think it's fine to come out with the excuse that he did for saying the Max can't shift/rise/fall the back?

Or to claim the XY can't do it either?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Lets not let this thread get ugly folks. It would be certainly welcome if we had a Alpa tech guy here for sure. The data is what counts and it can be corrected for more accuracy.

 

[gerald.d]

With respect Guy, we don't need any Alpa tech guys to clarify information that is freely and readily available on their website.

The Max can have all movements on the back with the stitch adapter accessory.

The XY - the same, but with the stitching column that is provided with the camera.

Doug has made it clear that he doesn't believe accessories should be considered in his assessment of camera functionality.

What more is there to it than that?

 

[cly]

At least with the older Cambo WRS you don't get full (vertical) movements if the Cambo tripod mount isn't attached (and the demo WRS I had didn't come with it, so you can't say it's an integral part). I guess the same holds for all or some of the newer siblings of the WRS.

If a certain fucntionality is given only if something removable is attached to the body then the Cambo can't get a yes or an unrestricted yes. But I think the classification is mistaken. I don't see a major difference between the Cambo removable tripod mount and the Alpa Max stitching adapter.

I would hardly argue that built-in tilt as in the RM3 bodies is the same as using an Alpa tilt adapter with the requirement of SB mounts on the lens side. But I don't see the same kind of difference when it comes to movements.

Chris

 

[Guy Mancuso]

With respect Guy, we don't need any Alpa tech guys to clarify information that is freely and readily available on their website.

The Max can have all movements on the back with the stitch adapter accessory.

The XY - the same, but with the stitching column that is provided with the camera.

Doug has made it clear that he doesn't believe accessories should be considered in his assessment of camera functionality.

What more is there to it than that?

I understand, its more the name calling is the concern more than anything else. Rather that not get out of hand.

 

[dougpeterson]

At least with the older Cambo WRS you don't get full (vertical) movements if the Cambo tripod mount isn't attached (and the demo WRS I had didn't come with it, so you can't say it's an integral part). I guess the same holds for all or some of the newer siblings of the WRS.

If a certain fucntionality is given only if something removable is attached to the body then the Cambo can't get a yes or an unrestricted yes. But I think the classification is mistaken. I don't see a major difference between the Cambo removable tripod mount and the Alpa Max stitching adapter.

You are thinking of the Cambo Wide DS. That body, like the Max, had movements split between the front and back, and used an adapter to allow rear-only movement.

That model is not really a current model. It's still on the price list because it's sometimes used in some speciality applications (namely art reproduction camera systems). So I did not include that model on the overview. If I did include it I would have listed it as "no" for rear only movement.

 

[dougpeterson]

The biggest gripe I have with dealers that make postings that appear to be "valuable," is their real target is to find people like you, looking for gear to buy and not really telling the whole story because they themselves do not know the whole story. They use tables of figures and not user experience; sometimes when you are making art, those numbers mean absolutely nothing and cripple some from making it all together.

Darr, you've spent a good amount of time on the phone with me. Are you really saying you think I miss the nuance of the user experience in my dealings with clients? I use (nearly) all the equipment we sell on a regular basis, attend hands on workshops, do most of our training sessions, and have been to many of our manufacturers. I care deeply about the user experience and the process of making an image which is not always be represented in a number.

But this specific page is a tech spec summary. And even so it starts off by saying "But the numbers (price and specifications) are only a small part of the process of selecting a tech camera. The workflows, ergonomics, aesthetics, and "feels right" factors should weigh heavily in this decision." - how is this not a testament to the exact point you are making?

 

[dougpeterson]

Well, that's any remaining credibility totally shot to pieces.

Disgraceful sales tactics.

Deliberately misrepresenting

Disgraceful?

That seems unnecessarily harsh.

I think you've formed (very strong) opinions about me without ever meeting me, or knowing who I am. I'd ask you to consider that maybe you've read too much into things I've written and come to conclusions which simply aren't the case.

Please find my any person on this board (or otherwise) that have purchased from a company I worked at or have worked with me in person or on the phone or in any 1v1 way who thinks I am a "disgraceful" sales person.

 

[Geoff]

Different vantage points. You can look at this as a biased sales pitch, or rather as the start of something, a work in progress. I prefer the latter. For those of us who have tried to do such comparisons, they are trickier than they seem: its not like comparing 35 mm SLR's, which are all about the same - the variations in the platforms (and their configurations) can confound such a summary.

Comparisons can be tricky. There are always those that are not on the list, for example, the Linhof Techno. Having tried separately to compare it with these other tech cameras (which are more of a family) leads one to realize that the variations in these cameras are hard to describe concisely. If the list were more complete, wouldn't view cameras, Sinar's Artec and lantec, etc. be on the list? What do you do with stitching backs? And the FPS - should it have two listings, alone, and in combination.... heck, not even Alpa is sure they know all the possible combinations for their own game changer.

Where Doug may have stubbed his toe is that he probably started out from a commercial side (here's what we sell and recommend), decided to share that (nice...thank you.) and then added Alpa for convenience sake for potential customers. In so doing, he made some assumptions as to what to show or not (accessories, sliding backs, Max vs. XY, FPS, etc.), which is quite tricky.

Some may look at this and say "raw commercial intent", but its likely more a result of how the process unfolded, and with Doug's pretty good work here, likely with the best of intentions.

In hindsight, perhaps a clearer separation between "stuff we sell" and "stuff by others" would have helped. Another potential improvement would be to add lenses that are not currently in production - which would be most useful, although if the listing were totally complete, what would Doug have still to do?

Its a start, commendable, and hopefully to be extended.

 

[cly]

You are thinking of the Cambo Wide DS.

Just for the sake of clarity, we don't have to discuss this in detail: No, I refer to the WRS, the one with the metal hand grips. If the body doesn't come with the removable tripod mount (read distancer) and you mount it directly on your head, you don't get full vertical movements.

Chris

PS: Actually, this problem has been mentioned before by "thomas": http://www.getdpi.com/forum/172526-post15.html
"The actual WRS body is square so without that little extension at the bottom (see attachment at the end of my post).
But without this extension you can't use the full amount of rise (i.e. back fall)… so if you don't shoot handheld you are probably always mounting the extension."