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Technical Camera Tech Spec Summary

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
The problem here is that Doug has made it very clear that he believes it to be a valid comparison between the cameras by ignoring the shift adapter for the Max. Also, I rather suspect that the XY actually ships with its stitching column included, but perhaps because it's a separate piece of metal, it's being deemed an accessory too?
Correct.

Likewise many RL3D customers use a stitching sliding back adapter which increases the range of possible movement. But in the tech specs for the bodies on this page I've listed only the range of movements possible with the body alone.

You're seeing apparitions of intentional misleading where there are none. It is genuinely meant to be an objective overview list of technical specifications which I could not find collected together anywhere on the internet. And I was genuinely asking for any corrections/additions to make sure it met that objective.

With another night sleep I find your argument compelling that "no" is incomplete regarding the listing of the Max and XY rear-only movements. So I've changed it to "w/ adapter". I think that's a fair technical assessment; if you'd suggest a different (very short) wording I'd consider it.

This is an overview comparison; it will not catch all the nuances of these systems. But this is a nuance that could be better explained than "no" and I hope you agree this is a fair way to do so.
 

darr

Well-known member
With all do respect Doug, I have never spent a good deal of time with you on the phone. I do remember a talk we had concerning putting an Arca R body on the front of an M series for a macro demo, but it never happened because I had a family emergency and had to cancel my appearance at the workshop. I walked away from that experience very numb after your boss at the time that advertises his "family values" in his business profile as being very important, would not even return my emails personally and kept my money. I guess his family values only apply to his family, not others. But that is in the past and I have learned not to trust the money makers in the business as I once did and I am hesitant about paying for workshops ahead of time.

I believe you are a smart guy, but I also feel you have been very selective with your data and the "user experience" I am talking about adding is what Jurgen has suggested, ask the users of the gear to help contribute to your chart so a buyer sees all the MF tech gear available, not just what you sell emphasized because it makes you look like a greedy sales tech otherwise.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Disgraceful?

That seems unnecessarily harsh.

I think you've formed (very strong) opinions about me without ever meeting me, or knowing who I am. I'd ask you to consider that maybe you've read too much into things I've written and come to conclusions which simply aren't the case.
Doug. This is an internet forum.

You are the sum of what you post. For many people, the only time they ever get an insight into who you are, is when you post here or on LuLa.

Please find my any person on this board (or otherwise) that have purchased from a company I worked at or have worked with me in person or on the phone or in any 1v1 way who thinks I am a "disgraceful" sales person.
I didn't say you were a disgraceful sales person.

I said that it was a disgraceful sales tactic.

Whole world of difference.

I don't doubt for one moment that you're a really great guy, very good at your job, and work tirelessly to support your customers.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Just for the sake of clarity, we don't have to discuss this in detail: No, I refer to the WRS, the one with the metal hand grips. If the body doesn't come with the removable tripod mount (read distancer) and you mount it directly on your head, you don't get full vertical movements.
Aha! Yes you're right about those first versions of the RS. On some tripod heads you'd bump against the plate/tripod without the spacer.

That spacer is now included and mounted as-sold. It's actually rather easy to forget that it's detachable (e.g. If you shoot only handheld).

Just highlights the nuances of such systems :).

Still in the face of such nuance I think there is value to have overview tables.
 
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jlm

Workshop Member
i think you should all cut the crap; it's an overview and serves a useful function as such.
Doug has been quite frank asking for updates and corrections and more than polite responding to a barrage of what could be called harsh, biased and disgraceful tactics. and he does not respond in kind
he does not deserve insults, thinly veiled or not.

it seems like the Alpa "system" can do anything anyway as long as you buy enough accessories
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
i think you should all cut the crap; it's an overview and serves a useful function as such.
Doug has been quite frank asking for updates and corrections and more than polite responding to a barrage of what could be called harsh, biased and disgraceful tactics. and he does not respond in kind
he does not deserve insults, thinly veiled or not.

it seems like the Alpa "system" can do anything anyway as long as you buy enough accessories
OK!
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Doug: you have my support, thanks for the effort
Ditto. It's a tough job to do with all of the variations between systems and not call someone's baby ugly along the way. :p

I think that having a list of key capabilities required for any tech cam system and listing how it's achieved is probably the fairest way of comparing the bodies and their associated systems. For example, you're going to want focus, x-y shift & tilts which are handled differently by Arca, Cambo & Alpa. Similarly tilts are not standard with any system other than the Arca.

There is no rear X-Y shift on an Alpa MAX unless you have the stitching adapter mount.

There is no tilt with either the Cambo or Alpa unless you either buy a t/s lens variant (Cambo) or a tilt adapter accessory (Alpa).

The tilt available on the Alpa is actually 0-6 degrees with the 34mm adapter, 0-5 degrees with the 17mm adapter. Adapter is flipped for negative tilt or swings. The original tilt adapter supports 0-12 degrees btw.

Focus on a Cambo or an Alpa is via setting the helicoid to a marked physical distance. On the Arca there's a translation required to rotation/offset. I'm not going in to the pro/cons of each as they are just different ways of doing it. Qualitatively they might be compared differently (HPF vs non-HPF on Alpa, std on Cambo & Arca precision) but ultimately they all allow you to set accurate focus and you can't really say which you like unless you try them.
 
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dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Graham, you've brought up a good point about the 6 deg range of the 34mm TS adapter. When I first thought it through it made sense to reference the 5 deg adapter, which is newer and allows more flexibility regarding lens compatibility. But on second thought is seems wise to include an asterisk to that point for more completeness.

I assume you'd agree the 12 deg version does not fit in the scope of an overview (in which you're accepting not covering all possible details for the sake of simplicity) as this is not the version which a new alpa owner is likely to end up with?
 
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GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
True - the old tilt adapter version is discontinued. The new gear would be either the 5 or 6 degree adapters.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
By the way if anyone would like to expand this table to include the other systems like Sinar et al or to expand its level of detail (though I warn you as soon as you leave the "overview" level the complexity can overwhelm concise table based summaries) I'd be glad to send that person the source document as an easier starting point. A link acknowledging the original table would be nice but not required.
 

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
In medicine, conflict of interest is extremely important compared to most industries.
This discussion is a good example. It is a gray zone and you just have to be careful how you will interpret it.
For new members who want to get into tech camera, please try each systems first before you make a decision.
Each of them have their own advantages & disadvantages.
Currently, I have both Cambo (WRS AE) and Alpa (SWA) which I've just acquired. I can't comment about the Arca RM3Di which is no doubt a fantastic camera. I eliminated it for simplicity (not functionality or accuracy) point of view.
If you want the camera you will immediately fall in love with, it would be Alpa. To me, it likes a "Porsche" of tech cam.
Cambo, likes "Lexus", is more cost effective. You pay less for everything and get what you pay for. I thought it was very well made until I've got the Alpa.
Craftsmanship and handling are something you can't measure by the specification. I am happy with both systems but fall in love with Alpa.
At the end, it will be your job to master them.

Pramote
 
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jagsiva

Active member
Doug, thanks for posting the info, certainly find the lens specs, especially weights, filter threads etc. very useful.

A general comment, I think it is unfair to characterize a dealer as biased for favouring the products they carry. This is what they are here for. I find the level of information provided by Doug and others like him regarding the products they sell to be very valuable. I'm sure other dealers carrying other products are welcome to put out helpful info regarding their products as well. In any case, Doug has always been open about the fact that he is a dealer.

In addition, the product/brand agnostic information that Doug has posted here including various calculators, image circle info, C1 tips etc., should be appreciated. Not sure what the witch hunt is about, and I would hate to see otherwise mature, very talented photographers, diminish the intent of this post.
 

Dogs857

New member
Doug

Just a quick correction for you mate.
The 120mm Schneider is listed on your site with a 110mm image circle. Schneider list is with a 120mm circle. Also their list for the filter thread is 46mm not 40.5mm.

Cheers
 
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gerald.d

Well-known member
Doug, thanks for posting the info, certainly find the lens specs, especially weights, filter threads etc. very useful.

A general comment, I think it is unfair to characterize a dealer as biased for favouring the products they carry. This is what they are here for. I find the level of information provided by Doug and others like him regarding the products they sell to be very valuable. I'm sure other dealers carrying other products are welcome to put out helpful info regarding their products as well. In any case, Doug has always been open about the fact that he is a dealer.

In addition, the product/brand agnostic information that Doug has posted here including various calculators, image circle info, C1 tips etc., should be appreciated. Not sure what the witch hunt is about, and I would hate to see otherwise mature, very talented photographers, diminish the intent of this post.
Sorry, but I'm not going to sit back and let accusations of a "witch hunt" just stand without a response.

People need to read the thread from the start.

Doug claimed this for what he posted - "As far as I'm aware this is the only place one can find the weight, length, width, and movements of Cambo, Arca, and Alpa tech cameras in one place".

Additionally, on the page itself, right after the introduction to the company, he states this as an opener (and this is of critical importance to the argument) - "This page is provided to help guide our customers early in their process of selecting the body and lenses that best match their needs and budget."

He listed both the Max and the XY as not being capable of back-only movements.

It is NOT a witch hunt to point out a factual error.

When the person who has made that error initially refuses to correct it, coming out with some ridiculous assertion that you can't include accessories (even those included with the camera when you purchase it) when assessing the functionality of a camera, then frankly, I think I have every right to call him out on it.

Yes. He is a dealer for Cambo and Arca.

Yes. We of course should expect some bias in some circumstances.

But no. We should NOT expect some bias when he is purporting to present a purely objective, balanced - and hence presumably unbiased - assessment of the functionality of different cameras on the market.

And no. It is NOT OK to just sit back and accept it when he misrepresents a product that he does not sell, and having had the error pointed out to him, refuses to correct it.

With regards to the product agnostic information, I agree with you 100%. And if you were to look through the thread on his visualisation tool, you'll see that I was pretty vocal in my support of it, and suggested additional thoughts as to how it could be enhanced.

Look.

Like Graham, I too have spent some time in technical sales. I was a tech pre-sales guy for a software company for a good portion of my career, and trust me on this - not only do I know every sales trick in the book, I also fully understand multiple sales processes from both vendor and customer perspectives.

One of the things you look to do in any sales process is eliminate the competition as early as you can. Particularly the ones that you have often lost to in the past.

The oldest trick in the book is to feel the customer's pain and recognise what a confusing, complicated - not to mention, expensive - decision he has to make. In fact, part of your job as a salesman is to make the decision process appear even more complicated than it is. You want the customer out of their comfort zone. That way, they need you to guide them.

But don't worry Mr Customer - we're here to help you with that. Look - we've put a great little tool together that will simplify things for you. Have a look through it, then come back to us when you need some more guidance.

Since you've developed a great relationship with your customer - chances are, he's going to trust you, and take you at your word.

And guess what. That little tool you provided (typically a bunch of check boxes against functionality) is loaded in your favour to knock the competition out.

Which is exactly what Doug provided.

Anyone looking for all movements on the back would have written off the Max and XY right out of the starting gate.

Whether this was a deliberate intent from the outset we'll never know. But either Doug is a very well trained sales guy, or he's just extremely naturally gifted at it (or I guess a combination of both). What you are seeing in play here - by accident or design - is sales process methodology 101.

I'm more than happy to be called out as being overly cynical with regards to my perspective on this. Perhaps I'm just a jaded old fart who has been involved in far too many sales processes in his life (both as vendor and customer) and is not one to just sit back and shut up when he thinks he sees customers getting manipulated by false information.

But please don't accuse me of going on a witch hunt.

Who knows. Perhaps Doug really is that rare breed of salesman who would actually be happy to lose a sale and recommend a competitor's product if he recognised that's what would be best for the customer?

What is evident though, is that without strongly voiced objections, that table would have been left as it was.
 
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danlindberg

Well-known member
Doug

Just a quick correction for you mate.
The 120mm Schneider is listed on your site with a 110mm image circle. Schneider list is with a 120mm circle. Also their list for the filter thread is 46mm not 40.5mm.

Cheers
My SK 120 N has indeed a 40.5mm filter thread.
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
. . . . .
Yes. He is a dealer for Cambo and Arca.
Yes. We of course should expect some bias in some circumstances . . . .

Who knows. Perhaps Doug really is that rare breed of salesman who would actually be happy to lose a sale and recommend a competitor's product if he recognised that's what would be best for the customer?
. . . .
For me one question arises as to whether a forum (any forum) really needs such a strong presence of a dealer .
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Jurgen,

I do hope you're not serious. I think that most of us welcome input from the manufacturers and dealers as they bring valuable information to the forum. It would be very sad if they were effectively chased off.

Doug in particular makes no attempt to hide his position as a dealer's employee and is very open about that. I really don't think that anyone would expect him not to have a bias towards the products and services his company handles. It would be very naive to expect anything else. However, he has always been very gracious in sharing extremely helpful information about the MF market and products in general. We just have to understand that he doesn't work for an Alpa dealer ... I'd hope that we are thick skinned enough to accept this.

Personally, I wish we had more dealer and manufacturer input here, not less IMHO. Just my $0.02.
 
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