johnnygoesdigital
New member
Let's not forget broadcast quality video....
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When is the new Phase One camera coming out?
- Thread starter mmbma
- Start date
pedro39photo
New member
Great post, its sad for anyone in love with DMF leave this systems because of body technology based on 10years models.
There is a market for new products in the DMF industry, not just more more GIGA GIGA pixeis.
My wish list for the next 3 years:
- Digital Monochrome Rolleiflex TwinLens / digital Xpan / Digital Mamiya 7
- great 400/800 iso files
- Faster AF performance
- Big Big viewfinder with optical or digital magnification for critical focus
- 5000$ entry level system
Anyone share same list?
There is a market for new products in the DMF industry, not just more more GIGA GIGA pixeis.
My wish list for the next 3 years:
- Digital Monochrome Rolleiflex TwinLens / digital Xpan / Digital Mamiya 7
- great 400/800 iso files
- Faster AF performance
- Big Big viewfinder with optical or digital magnification for critical focus
- 5000$ entry level system
Anyone share same list?
Ugg! Canon and MFD seems like McDonald's getting into the Gourmet food business.
Personally, I'm wishing the best for Phase One. They may be the last bastion for MFD that preserves the experiential traditions while advancing the cause ... because I feel Hasselblad has taken both eyes off the ball.
Leica walks alone (as usual), and doesn't produce a back for use on tech cameras ... to mention one glaring difference amongst others.
The "dual shutter" issue perplexes me ... but I'm not an engineer, so a lot of seeming oversights perplex me. I just do no get why when you select CS Mode (or LS), the focal plane shutter doesn't just open and stay that way until FP Mode is selected? Probably a good reason, but I can't seem to figure out why that would be an issue. Light leaks? Power drain? What? How the heck did Hasselblad do it with the 200 series V cameras with a 500 series CF lens mounted? Or did they?
- Marc
Personally, I'm wishing the best for Phase One. They may be the last bastion for MFD that preserves the experiential traditions while advancing the cause ... because I feel Hasselblad has taken both eyes off the ball.
Leica walks alone (as usual), and doesn't produce a back for use on tech cameras ... to mention one glaring difference amongst others.
The "dual shutter" issue perplexes me ... but I'm not an engineer, so a lot of seeming oversights perplex me. I just do no get why when you select CS Mode (or LS), the focal plane shutter doesn't just open and stay that way until FP Mode is selected? Probably a good reason, but I can't seem to figure out why that would be an issue. Light leaks? Power drain? What? How the heck did Hasselblad do it with the 200 series V cameras with a 500 series CF lens mounted? Or did they?
- Marc
Shashin
Well-known member
Most likely light leaks and power. The mirror would not prevent light from striking the image plane. It would also help keep the image plane clean when changing lenses. Usually, you need power to keep a shutter open.
So where does the Pentax 645D fit into this world view of MFD? It is what a Mamiya DF should be with all the benefits of an S2. All for a really nice price.
So where does the Pentax 645D fit into this world view of MFD? It is what a Mamiya DF should be with all the benefits of an S2. All for a really nice price.
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
Improving the FP shutter can certainly be done to vibration. Alpa use the same Mamiya shutter in the FPS and it has remarkable low shutter vibration and even seems to be quieter/softer than Copal leaf shutters from the feedback I've seen and some of the vibration tests from folks using it.
I do think that they could make the FP/leaf shutter combo better though. If there was an option to have the FP shutter lock open when LS lenses are used in leaf shutter mode then that would help. Maybe even if only in mirror up mode conditions - perhaps on demand? Ideally without draining the battery while doing it, although the new Phase One / EJII battery monsters have made power drain and sensitivity almost a thing of the past.
Regarding light leaks, they have the opportunity to fix the DF/DF+ body which is light porous through the AF assist sensor and also curiously one of the strap mounts.
I do think that they could make the FP/leaf shutter combo better though. If there was an option to have the FP shutter lock open when LS lenses are used in leaf shutter mode then that would help. Maybe even if only in mirror up mode conditions - perhaps on demand? Ideally without draining the battery while doing it, although the new Phase One / EJII battery monsters have made power drain and sensitivity almost a thing of the past.
Regarding light leaks, they have the opportunity to fix the DF/DF+ body which is light porous through the AF assist sensor and also curiously one of the strap mounts.
MaxKißler
New member
The Pentax 645D is a really nice camera. I tried it several times whenever I had the chance to. However there are several things about it that make it less attractive than other MFD systems to me. It's like that:
-No leaf shutter lenses.
-Sensor too small.
-Beauty is in the eye of the beholder: In my eye, the Pentax is one of the most ugly cameras ever built...
^^Don't dismiss this as complete stupidity: Most of the creative professionals I've met value the apperance of a camera and only the very most rational tend to buy into a system that does not impress at once (kind of a "showing off factor").
To me, the Pentax 645D is more of a replacement for 35mm. The camera is increadibly light. AF is super fast and you even get a usable ISO800 file out of it.
Shashin
Well-known member
There are two leaf shutter lenses that work on the 645D--a 75mm and 135mm. And leaf shutters are a preference, not an absolute necessity. The sensor is larger than a Leica S and the same size as many 40MP MFD sensors from Phase, Hasselblad, and Leaf. Compared to a Hasselblad H (or Lunar for that matter) and Mamiya DF, I would not start calling the 645D ugly. I have yet to find anyone that thought my 645D was unimpressive, quite the opposite, and not so dull as a D800. Generally speaking, I have always gotten work by showing my book, not my camera equipment.
AreBee
Member
Marc,
Please can you describe what do you mean by "experiential traditions"?
It astonishes me, given that Canon first provided an electronic first curtain shutter in a DSLR six years ago, eliminating shake caused by the camera.
Now that's ironic (refer to previous comment). Perhaps gourmet food outlets should try flipping a few burgers?
MaxKißler
New member
Will, I have the impression that you took my writing personally. Let me point out, I only shared my opinion and did neither criticize you, your work nor your decision to buy that particlular camera. In fact I'm using a camera that is probably worse than yours in every way (and twice as cheap).
Of course leaf shutter lenses are not a necessity and my Mamiya AFD II restricts me to use lenses without LS. However I wish I had a system with LS lenses as my work would greatly benefit from it. The leaf shutter lenses you mentioned are for the Pentax 67 and therefore manual focus only am I right? I don't mean to tease you, I'm just saying it makes the whole system a lot less attractive considering the great AF performance of the 645D. Seems like one cannot have it all...
Regarding sensor sizes, I wouldn't ever considering buying a back with a sensor smaller than 48mm*36mm.
MaxKißler
New member
Marc has yet to lament about MFD pricing and production volumes to make this analogy work.
pedro39photo
New member
Its difficult to see the analogy because of the digital backs.
But if we just see the prices of the bodys and lens, for example after the PhaseOne - Mamiya 645d III rebrand the model the prices went up up up up and UP AGAIN in the past years...
Anyone remember the cost of a new Mamiya 645AFD II or III and D lens in the past compared now with the price a DF based on the same old model ?
Shashin
Well-known member
I am not taking this personally. It is just the same old stuff again and again. Lets judge photographers by their equipment and lets take the stuff on camera A which is not on camera B and call that the defining criteria. Like the extra 2mm around the edge of a 48x36 sensor makes it so much better than a 44x33 sensor. (I was not even bothered by you suggesting that "professional" photographers understanding that their equipment should look professional--but I am a professional and I know that not to be true, not that this has any relevance to the topic.)
The leaf shutter lenses are Pentax 645 lenses. And both are manual focus. (There you go again, adding criteria. First you want LS lenses, then you want LS AF lenses.) But then again, the Pentax 645D system has the only MFD lens with optical stabilization. Do I win now?
You can slice and dice this anyway you want to, but the fact remains, the Pentax 645D is the most advanced MFD camera out there, with maybe the exception of the S. That is the bar for Mamiya. Folks lamenting the lack of technology in MFD and ignoring the 645D are playing with an incomplete picture.
pedro39photo
New member
Its hard to find the launch prices to compare
" the Mamiya 645 AFD body with Autofocus 80mm f2.8 lens and roll film holder (HM 401) has a recommended retail price of 2761.25$ "
" the Mamiya 645 AFD body with Autofocus 80mm f2.8 lens and roll film holder (HM 401) has a recommended retail price of 2761.25$ "
MaxKißler
New member
Well, now I am taking this personally. When did I ever judge anyone by the gear he/she is using? I mentioned all the great features I like about the Pentax but again, I was just pointing out why it is not the right camera for me and this will not change, no matter how advanced and great it is. Not because I don't like the looks of it but because it lacks features I consider essential for a digital MF system. The same applies to sensor size, regardless of how marginal the difference between 48x36 and 44x33 is. Even if it's completely irrational and does not matter in real world shooting, sensors in MF cameras should be as large as possible and not the opposite IMO.
When I mentioned how I experianced that a lot of photographers value the looks of their gear, I did not mean to offend you any how and neither did I say the Pentax wouldn't be a professional's camera.
I personally am very rational when it comes to the gear I'm using. I can only justify spending large amounts of money on gear when I get the impression that a certain price performance ratio is right which was the case with my 645 AFDII and Aptus 22.
Maybe we should continue this debate via PMs as this seems to be getting off topic.
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
For long exposure day light photography gaffer tape is an esssential part of your kit. It only affects the DF when you shoot really long exposures. You might be surprised by your Pentax 645D and lenses in this respect too if you shoot in the region of minutes in bright light. Not really a Phase One / Mamiya specific issue.
johnnygoesdigital
New member
MaxkiBler,
Some cameras are certainly more aesthetically challenged then others, and the the Pentax 645 D is not going to win any beauty contests, but some here take it so personally when their gear is dissed, just look at defensive comments about the S2. Personally, I think the Phase DF is a cool looking camera, I just want it to be competitive with the others then I might buy it. The argument about good looking cameras attracting better attention for professionals is sorta true IMO, I didn't initially agree with that assessment, but think it has merit. I think bullying comments from others on who wins is detrimental to making good points or for that matter... any points.
Some cameras are certainly more aesthetically challenged then others, and the the Pentax 645 D is not going to win any beauty contests, but some here take it so personally when their gear is dissed, just look at defensive comments about the S2. Personally, I think the Phase DF is a cool looking camera, I just want it to be competitive with the others then I might buy it. The argument about good looking cameras attracting better attention for professionals is sorta true IMO, I didn't initially agree with that assessment, but think it has merit. I think bullying comments from others on who wins is detrimental to making good points or for that matter... any points.
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RVB
Member
Discussing the looks of camera's is a valid talking point but in the end it's subjective. I use a Leica S and like the ergonomics,I still have my H4D-50 and while it feels a little on the heavy side its pretty comfortable to use.. the Pentax 645D looks pretty good to my eyes,and Lloyd Chambers was pretty enthusiastic about the ergonomics too..writing these words about handling.. "I like this camera. It feels like a camera, whereas too many cameras today feel like computers with a lens. It is a highly functional camera for shooting. Fun to shoot, easy to shoot, doesn’t piss you off with stupidly designed-in problems."
johnnygoesdigital
New member
Professional camera reviewers are also highly subjective, especially the ones with paid subscription sites.
While it is very true that many if not most photographers are interested in the visual presence of their tools, I think reaction to camera design can be strongly affected by our experiences with it ... and I do not mean the rationality of its ergonomics and such.
A camera you click with (so to speak), one that you have succeeded with despite some over-sight others are happy to point out, can introduce a "blind" affection that those other folks may not understand. The longer you are with it, the prettier it gets
To avoid the running MFD debate here, I'd offer the example of the Leica M camera ... not exactly redefining industrial design IMO. Basically a squared off brick shape more military in its presence than anything ... not even all that ergonomic. Yet, evoking rabid affection for 50+ years.
- Marc
A camera you click with (so to speak), one that you have succeeded with despite some over-sight others are happy to point out, can introduce a "blind" affection that those other folks may not understand. The longer you are with it, the prettier it gets
To avoid the running MFD debate here, I'd offer the example of the Leica M camera ... not exactly redefining industrial design IMO. Basically a squared off brick shape more military in its presence than anything ... not even all that ergonomic. Yet, evoking rabid affection for 50+ years.
- Marc