African lens help !! Please share your experience :)

[proenca]

Hi there,

Quick background : I bought a Leica S2 few months back and I'm an amateur.

So its a big toy which I love and had to give away my major Leica M collection, but I wanted to go into the MF game.. and boy, I'm loving it.

I have the "kit" lens, the 70mm.

My wife and I are going to African in a few months, Safari parks et all.

I want to buy one or two lens and here asking for advice ; my family is "planned" to grow in a few months ( well you got the point ) so money for new or used S lens is going to be non existent for quite a while ehehe..

Africa is a big dream and two things come to my mind : wide angles of that Savana and telephoto of Cheetahs and such, to which I do not have a lens.

Option 1 ( which I'm more inclined at the moment )
Buy Leica - Contax oficial adapter - 1500 euros
Buy Contax 35mm lens : 1200 euros
Buy Contax 350mm lens : 3000 euros
downsides : 35mm isnt that really wide
up : less expensive route, can add a couple of other lens ( 120 macro, 80mm f2, 55mm ) down the road

Option 2
Buy Leica - H official adapter - 1250 euros
Buy used 28mm HCD - 2200 euros
pray for used Hasselblad H 300mm at this price point : 3000 euros
downsides : more expensive. other lens down the road will take years
up : H lens are better

Option 3
Buy Leica 24mm or 30mm lens : 5500 euros
down : no tele, no lens for the nearby century
up : weather sealed, super wide ( love it ) , superb

Option 4 :
buy Contax adapter, Contax 35mm : 2700 euros
buy Canon 1D4 : 2000 euros and Canon 400mm : 2500 euros which be sold after

down : having to carry two cameras and dont really like SLR million option for focusing, exposure, etc




So... here is my dillemma. Is the Contax 350mm a viable alternative ( even with a 1.7x converter from Contax ) or having a 500mm f8 medium format lens without stabilization is useless without a tripod as stable as a tree ? Should I directly to Leica 24mm ? If Contax 350mm + 1.7 aint enough, why would Hasselblad suffice ?

Contax lens are great, superb, non sealed but cheap ( for MF AF lens standards ) ...

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

I'm not sure I'd recommend MF for safaris at all. I have been on many and find a DSLR far superior for the following reasons-

First, you need telephoto lenses, preferably 400 mm or more. While I do use a 240 mm on my IQ180 for wildlife and then crop extensively, it is not the ideal.

Second, it's well nigh impossible to use a tripod. You're usually in jeep or land rover and are not allowed to get out - unless you want to get eaten. In Kenya and Tanzania a guide can lose his licence if he lets you out in some areas of national parks. Still, beanbags are a good option. But a DSLR with lens stabilization is a much better bet.

Third, you need speed - at least 3 or frames per second. MF can't do that.

Fourth - fast autofocus is needed. Perhaps the Leica S has that - I don't know. My Phase DF is far too slow.

Fifth - lightweight. Many of the wilderness camps require light plane flights and you are severely weight restricted.

Don't get me wrong, I love MF and would certainly prefer to use it for African landscapes. But for my last few trips I've taken a Sony a99 with the Zeiss 24-70 and the "G" 70-400, with an a900 as backup. In dusty areas I put the 24-70 on one camera and the tele on the other - and never remove them. Dust in East Africa in particular is a real hazard.

If you can travel with a private guide and weight is not an issue, then MF would be ideal for the landscapes but you still need a DSLR for the birds and animals.

It's simply a question of using the right tool for the job.

Good luck - it will be a great experience whatever gear you take.

 

[Shashin]

First, since money is tight, I would not be making purchases based on this trip.

For wide, I would learn to stitch panos with your 70mm. I do plenty of handheld panos with my 645D handheld.

For the wildlife, I would buy an inexpensive APS-C or m4/3 system and put a long focal length zoom with that. With something like an OMD, you would also get IBIS. You are not going to become a wildlife photographer before or during your trip. I would just enjoy the experience.

That was probably not what you wanted to hear in a forum that is so used to spending other people's money. Besides, you are with your family. Enjoy yourself. It is amazing what you can do with a simple setup.

 

[Shashin]

One thought about whether something is the right lens. If you think your lens is not long enough or not wide enough, you are trying to take someone else's picture. There is never the wrong lens, just the wrong picture.

 

[Ken_R]

I agree. It all depends on the image you are trying to make.

If you want to get close up images of big cats and other large and dangerous animals very late or early in the day you will need a lens in the 300-500mm range and a 35mm DSLR (full frame or cropped sensor, good in low light).

If you want to make landscape images one can compose an image with most any lens. Again, all depends on the image you want to make.

If on a budget medium format is not the way to go. You might be much happier with a 100-400mm zoom and a 35mm DSLR + The medium format gear you already have.

I would go to a shop to look at gear and get a feel of whats available or even rent some gear (borrowlenses.com , lensrentals.com) before buying.

 

[danlindberg]

Keep it simple. Use a monopod inside the jeep when at standstill and handstitch on the fly with the 70 for wides.

Get this a Hassy V adaptor: Leica S Adapter for Hasselblad V Lens for Leica S2 Camera 16024

And pick up a Tessar 5.6/350. There are plenty on the second hand market and go for between 1000-1200 euros in Europe. Not that I have tried, but I'm sure this lens can handle your S2 sensor.

One body/system, two lenses. Ok total weight and bulk.

 

[danlindberg]

Made a quick search on a spanish buy/sell site:

http://www.segundamano.es/madrid/ob...sar-f-56-350-mm-t/a42687360/?ca=0_s&st=a&c=52

(Note that I have no idea who this particular seller is)

I have the Hassy 350 lens, so if you want a raw file from the Alpa FPS and Credo 60 with this lens, just give me a shout!

Or if you do get the adaptor, come by Marbella and try it for yourself!

 

[baudolino]

I did a 10 day trip in Uganda last year with an S2 and just two lenses -35mm and 120mm. You can see some of the pictures elsewhere on this forum or on my webpage, in the travel section. Of course the 120mm is not long enough for detailed shots of many animals but I had decided, before the trip, that I was not really interested in taking detailed pictures of animals (after all, have seen thousands of such pictures...) but rather animals in the context of the land, plus images of people etc. With the experience of the trip in mind, next time I would probably take also a slightly longer lens (have bought the 210/4 HC in the meantime) for the pictures of gorillas, chimps and monkeys. The Leica 180 mm could be a good choice, too. The 300 HC or 350 Contax lenses are of course a possibility but in my view are very large and heavy lenses (especially the 350) and you would find it difficult to use them hand-held from a jeep, especially in the low light levels in the morning or evening when the safari drives take place (the S2 not being exactly a low light champ). Even with the 120mm lens, I was constantly shooting between F2.5-F4.0, ISO 320 or even 640 and trying to keep shutter speeds at 1/250 or shorter - and it was not always easy. So I imagine that with a 350 mm lens (and the Contax lens is a heavy beast) it would be even more difficult and you would have to think about some solutions like at least beanbags or even better a gimbal head (Wimberly) attached somehow (Manfrotto magic arm?) to the car. But then you are getting into a territory of a dedicated photo safari where you really need to have the car for yourself and have very patient or similarly dedicated co-travellers. The animals are of course once on the left side of the car, once on the right side etc. meaning you often have to shoot over somebody else's shoulder - easier to do with a lens that you can handhold (the 120mm for instance) than with one that you can't (the 300-350mm). So, my advice to you is that you start answering the following questions before you decide on the longest lens:

(a) Will you have the car only for yourself (and your wife) or will there be more people in it (the tour operators often use extended wheelbase toyotas fitting 6-8 people in one vehicle, for instance).

(b) Do you absolutely want to take the best detailed shots of animals and will your wife be supportive of your goal or do you rather want to enjoy your holiday more by being more nimble and not fumble around with big heavy lenses?

(c) What kind of car will it be and will you have any chance to support or attach the lens to it (beanbag on the roof? handrails - if there is no roof or just cloth roof?). Will you be able to quickly swap the sides of the vehicle with your solution in case the animals happen to be on the opposite side of the vehicle?

(d) Will you be also doing any walking/hiking? If so, you will want to leave the long lens behind (too heavy). Will you be comfortable leaving it locked in your room at the lodge or in the car? Will you be comfortable leaving any other expensive equipment in the hotel?

Once you've considered the above, you may come to a variety of solutions. For my next trip to Africa, I would take the S2 with the 35/120/210 lenses, plus maybe an Olympus OMD with a longer zoom. Or even leave the 210 at home and address all the longer lens needs through the Olympus/zoom combination. Or just do what I did last time - S2+35+120.

 

[proenca]

Bill : indeed, NOT getting eaten by the fauna is an option

Will : great advice with " One thought about whether something is the right lens. If you think your lens is not long enough or not wide enough, you are trying to take someone else's picture. There is never the wrong lens, just the wrong picture."

Ken : " If on a budget medium format is not the way to go. (...)" ; I know. There was a guy selling a S2 with a very nice price and I had to jump on it. Now, I'm budgeting 10k usd for a new lens or two, after that will have to stop - wife is pregnant, so money spending on lenses is a big no no in the future.

Dan : get those workshops running fast mate, want to vist you and take pictures with you in Spain .)



Anyway, I thought a bit more on this and thanks for everyone that gave their inputs.

35mm DSLR is now ruled out.

Most of you is now scratching their heads and thiking "oh you imbecil, but its the best thing for that job/trip" ... but, I played with few of my dSLRs ( still have a couple ) yesterday and I hate the things.

Hate it.

Love the S2 wich is dSLR like, without the complication. Its simple. Its direct. Its "no frills". Set exposure, focus, bang. No 209384230984 menus to set the mm of the focusing speed .

I cant live with dSLR's anymore, its official.

So buying a dSLR to take a few chetah pictures its stupid.

Going to order the Contax adapter and few Contax lenses. If I can get the 350mm at a decent price and a tripod + beanbag, cool. If not, oh well... landscapes will have to do.

As I said, children are comming in a very near future, so spending money with new lenses ( specially MF lens with their hefty price tag ) are ruled out for a while.

Contax seems to allow me to get a few nice lens ( 45,55,35, 120 macro and even a tele ) for a fraction of a price of a Leica S lens.

If can get a Leica 24mm S lens for a good price, I will jump on it - love wide angles. But since the lens is super new, used is a big no no.

I would like to compliment my beloved Leica S with a few lens and money will be tight from a few years onwards - kids are a priority. Contax seem the way to go.

Who would guess there was a decent alternative price wise on medium format land ? .)

 

[rollei8is]

Hi,

I have been to two safaris in Kenya.

On both trips I took a Hasselblad H system, along with 35mm system.

On the first trip I had the H1 and was shooting film.

Provia 100, exposed at 320 and processed at 400.

26 rolls of 220. Excellent results. I have 30X40 prints hanging in my family room.

Lens HC 210 with 1.7X converter.

On the second visit I used a H3Dii -31 with similar results.

You can use MFD if you have space inside the vehicle.

R--

 

[Stan ROX]

I've been to Africa twice and also did Safaris over there.

So, let me say this:

Except for very special incidents, you usually CAN NOT compete with any of these professional photographers out there, waiting weeks for the right picture. So, there is really no need to expose your precious camera to these circumstances - it anything goes wrong, you will cry.

Given all the big numbers in purchasing additional lenses, I would recommend another strategy:

- buy a small DSLR or Mirrorless System + two lenses (or three)

You can sell the equipment after the trip or keep parts of it or whatever.

For further readings:

About the equipment (especially re a Leica S2 and a Panasonic GH2)
On Safari


About the Safari Days:
Digital Safari Equipment Tips

If you use the Safari as an excuse to buy a new lens for your S-System ... well

Regards

Stan ROX
stanROX.com

 

[D&A]

Excellent comments and suggestions by all in this thread and I often use MF for some local wildlife..but that is where I can set up a sturdy tripod and and have time to prepare for most shots.

As daunting and often times over-complicated a DSLR might seem, it can be set easily to where it's requires no more input than a S2 (which I've used on a number of occasions), so I'm in agreement that for the long tele shots, a DSLR is the way to go in most cases.

Keep in mind the crop factor of the S2. A 350mm telephoto has a fild of view equivelent to a 280mm on a full frame 35mm camera...so not particulary long. Keep this crop factor in mind when considering purchase of any lens.

Lastly have fun!

Dave (D&A)

 

[Shashin]

The nice thing about 300--350mm class of lens is you can still handhold it--they are not that big nor heavy. So it is a flexible lens for very variable situations where you need magnification. You can still make nice images of wildlife in a landscape--elephants are probably easier than hummingbirds. I remember a very nice image of bears in the fun with MF thread taken with a 300mm. You can also use it for landscapes as well. Most 1.4X converters work well with them.

I have a 300mm. Not my most used lens. I rarely use it. But because of its size, it is something I can carry--Pentax is a little bit of an outlier because it has two 300mm lenses and the f/5.6 version I have is quite compact and light, the f/4 version might stay home more because of weight. I have no idea about the Contax lens.

 

[mmbma]

RENT RENT RENT

don't buy them until you try it out. Those long lenses have such a specialized application you probably wont' use them again if you are an amateur. You can try to get long medium format lenses but I'd just rent a Canon 1d and a telephoto 400mm plus. they are cheap now

 

[baudolino]

I had the 350 Contax lens for a while when I used to shoot with that system. Superb optically but big and heavy (much bigger and heavier than the Hassy / Pentax alternatives mentioned by others above). Weights almost 4 kg. Despite what others say here, I think you will want to stabilise/support it somehow rather than handhold. Also ask the driver to switch off the engine if he doesn't do it himself, to avoid camera shake - whether you handhold or support the camera.

Also don't forget that some animals will be closer to the car (giraffes, antelopes, elephants) and the 350 will be too long - and the 35 perhaps still too wide - and you'll wish you had a normal lens with you (Planar 80 f2.0 maybe, or the Distagon 55 f3.5, if you want to stick with the Contax line for cost reasons - both superb lenses that can be bought for next to nothing today).

 

[Landscapelover]

Buy a second-hand Canon/Nikon with long telephoto lenses. The best place is FM Forums. Don't rent them.
If you don't want to keep them, you can sell them after you come back with a loss less than renting. I used the Nikon 200-400mm VR I for 3 years (bought from FM Forums) and just sold it at Craigslist with only $100 loss. It is a top-quality zoom lens and great for big animals but a little short for birds. It would be a perfect lens for your Safari. It's still good with x1.4 TC. If you are strong you can hold it for a while. VR is great.
You can bring the S2 with a couple of lenses along with the Canon/Nikon but not with a long telephoto lens. I've had a Hasselblad HC 300mm but I would not recommend it. It's too heavy and needs lots of light. The pictures would be blurred if you shot in a car.

Good luck for your Safari!
Pramote

 

[Andy Biggs]

Hey guys, I am really glad I found this thread. Ok. My thoughts, in no particular order.

I lead photo safaris, and I also shoot with medium format gear. I have a Phase One DF, IQ160 and my longest lens is a Schneider 240mm (155mm equivalent in 35mm terms). Yes, medium format isn't the best format to shoot everything, it does have its place. I have found the 240mm lens to be the perfect lens, as it gives me enough sky to work with while still giving the subject enough size in the frame. It's a great balance, and it works for me. Most of my shots are at ISO 100 or 200, and I am often at around f/8 or f/11 and have around 1/250 sec to work with. I shoot on a bean bag, and it's plenty stable for what I am doing.

I can post some examples when I am back in the studio tomorrow if you are interested in seeing some of what I have shot recently.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Hi Andy, I would very much be interested in seeing some of your recent work with MF.

Proenca, I have tried the Hasselblad 350mm, Pentax 67 400mm, and Leica R 400mm on my S2 and it is a real challenge to get photos with no evidence of camera/lens movement. It is doable, but my keeper rate was fairly low for the short period I tried each combination. I expect that my keeper rate would have improved over time as I perfect techniques for the lens. However, I am not a complete noob when it comes to telephoto work having previously owned and used the Canon 500mm for sports and wildlife several years.

Maybe Pesto can chime in and share experience/advise from his use of the S2 with the Mamiya 500mm.

Whatever you do as far as lenses go, do it as soon as possible and practice a lot before your trip to Africa.

One other thought based on Andy's comment. The Leica 180mm is equivalent to about 146mm which is not far from the 155mm equivalent Andy has been using successfully. You can probably pick up a used 180mm for a decent price.

 

[Bill Caulfeild-Browne]

MF does work on safari - but I just don't see it as the best tool.

I could not get this without fast autofocus and image stabilization. Many wildlife shots are snatched, not contemplated! I feel MF is best for the latter.

 

[fotografz]

What do you intend on doing with the work after you return?

Do you exhibit monster prints in a gallery for sale, or do you prefer self-publishing a Blurb book for friends and family? Big difference in terms of ability to crop, etc.

I'm not a fan of 35mm DSLRs either ... much preferring to use my S2 for anything I can ... even to the point of defying conventional wisdom. Frankly, I also think too many folks under-estimate what you can do with these MFD cameras, especially what you can and cannot shoot with a S2.

Personally, I find it a bit creatively stimulating to have some limitations so you are forced to approach the situation differently. There are so many damned good shots, many by those who's business it is to take weeks for a few great images, that it seems less likely I'll get anything as good of a similar subject, no matter who I am or what I have with me. So, I try to think differently.

I owned the Contax 350/4 ... it is HUGE and super slow focusing. I also owned the Hasselblad 300/4.5, which focuses a little faster, but is also big and cumbersome. If I even took a long lens, and had a choice, I'd do the Hasselblad HC 210/4 over the Contax 210/4 (which I also used) ... the Hassleblad is optically better, and provides the bonus of allowing use of the central shutter on your S2 for high speed flash sync up to 1/750 shutter to avoid those pesky white skies. Perhaps not correct for field shots of Lions whom you do not want to startle , but can make for nice people and environmental site shots using a SF58 speed-light.

For a wide I use a CS 35mm (28mm equivalent) because it distorts less when shooting with people in the frame (or wildlife at the edges of the frame). For the wider shots I'd stitch some 35mm lens shots for panos. The Leica S35mm is miles ahead of the Contax and Hasselblad versions.

Just something different to think about.

- Marc