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Thread: Fun with MF images

  1. #3801
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70

    mm

  2. #3802
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm


  3. #3803
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Dear xpixel
    Sorry, I must not have been clear. I LIKE the sharpness of these images. It was Guy who said it was oversharpened,. He said the default from S2 was 'oversharpened'.

    I have seen many comments about oversharpening, and I believe this is due to some cameras and backs having inherent sharpness. e.g. with more than 4 pixels per image point, there is no "Bayer Matrix" need for sharpening.

    Now, some images may be aesthetically TOO SHARP especially for 'mood' images and partraits.
    OVERSHARPENING is a situation where halo, artifacts and artificial edges are seen.

    None of that in your S2 images. What I see is really sharp, and 3 dimensional images. You can almost feel like 'walking through' the forest scene.

    This will be a never ending debate, yet unilateral declarations of 'oversharpening' are un called for. Criticism that an image is TOO sharp for its subject matter I do understand, and appreciate

    regards
    Victor

    PS Posting a 100% crop may put to bed any oversharpening issues, or it may reinforce them :-)

    PPS I have seen on screen images almost 'shimmer' they are so sharp. I have noticed this with some P65+ images with the Schneider-Kreutznach 35mm Digitar. Those are down resizing and jpg artifacts. I think you have that in some of the tree branches.

    PPPS those images are AMAZING. Images, like knives, are only too sharp if you don't know how to handle them.
    Last edited by gogopix; 23rd March 2010 at 13:22.

  4. #3804
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by xpixel View Post
    Leica S2 - 70 mm

    maybe to sharp for you gogopix? You can have also a 100% view of the ship if you want..
    I wish you had not posted these examples....I have been looking at my H3DII 39 and technical camera and thinking...these are very very compelling captures.

    They may be a bit oversharp for the web...real question is how do they print?
    Personally I think they may be just a bit crisp but I know that if I were to sharpen for output at 360 on an Epson this would be very close.

    Gorgeous color, dimensionality and clarity.

    I would love to take these and work them over....

    I downloaded Guy's S2 files and love how they can be manipulated...they do not seem fragile at all.

    If it were not for Tashley's bad experiences I would be sorely tempted.

    Bob

  5. #3805
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    I wish you had not posted these examples....I have been looking at my H3DII 39 and technical camera and thinking...these are very very compelling captures.

    They may be a bit oversharp for the web...real question is how do they print?
    Personally I think they may be just a bit crisp but I know that if I were to sharpen for output at 360 on an Epson this would be very close.

    Gorgeous color, dimensionality and clarity.

    I would love to take these and work them over....

    I downloaded Guy's S2 files and love how they can be manipulated...they do not seem fragile at all.

    If it were not for Tashley's bad experiences I would be sorely tempted.

    Bob
    Bob, don't let my experience put you off at all, please! I will be back into the S system at some point but for now I just needed something that needed no more testing and that had to be a system I was already well versed in. The sensor issues I had are by all accounts a run of bad luck experienced by no one but me. Everyone has seen the posts I made of them but no one else has so far come up with anything similar so if you like the files, go for it!

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    xpixel, it is great to see some more S2 photos on here. I really like the last two. In fact, the train tracks reminded me that I had some train photos. All photos taken with S2 and 70mm. Processed in LR 3 Beta 2.



    crop from above





    crop from above





    crop from above (yes, there is some moiré on the left sleeve which I didn't attempt to remove)


  7. #3807
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    What a great series, Mark!
    I love steam!
    Bill

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    Senior Member Bill Caulfeild-Browne's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Playing with Sensor + at ISO 3200, snapshot of the grandchildren with the 150D at f4, handheld in natural light. I'm amazed how clean the file is for this ISO.
    Bill

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Thank you Bill. You are getting a lot out of the Sensor+. 3200 looks better than I would have expected. I get the impression your grandchildren are accustom to you pointing a camera their way. They seem very comfortable, natural, and very happy.

    Mark

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Really nice to see some S2 photos on this thread. Better still when they are good shots... and these are. That crop from the steam locomotive is quite impressive. Looking forward to more shots from more lenses as they become available. Anyone know how sales of the S2 are fairing ? Still a tough market out there but I recently read that the luxury brand autos are selling quite well.

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    From what I have heard, it is selling extremely well. Apparently everyone is buying the premium model with the extra warranty and body replacement, and sapphire screen, not the standard cheaper model.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
    My lab is here: http://www.customphotolab.is and on facebook

  12. #3812
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Now, I don't want to be picky, but
    this is a medium format forum. We have images from S2, P30, P65+ and Hassey and H6y film

    I propose we adapt

    LMF for 'lower MF' such as S2, and heavy crop factor P30 etc
    MMF for 'middle MF" for 645, with 1.1 CF and FF
    UMF for 'upper MF' for 6x6

    I certainly believe this is apples to apples but I really want to know when I am talking "red (dot) delicious" vs "Fuji"

  13. #3813
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    I think I've seen a good part of the S2 image available online.
    They are mostly really impressive in the center - even wide open.
    And they are all really disappointing at the egdes - even stopped down.
    So… maybe someone could post a corner crop at 100% from a wider shot (a landscape or so… i.e. not a close shot).
    But! … I actually do not post anything in this thread. So I'd have full understanding if nobody is going to refer to (really!).

  14. #3814
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    wow that's a pretty broad indictment.
    Are you sure the corner/edges are not just OOF?
    In xpixels the edges look fine, but a crop would help

    That said, ALL lenses drop off. Esp WO. for a Leica lens to be fuzzy at an in-focus edge at f5.6 would shock me

    Does anyway have an example of crn/edge?

    regards
    Victor

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Thomas, I have wondered about the S lens performance in the corners myself and have looked through many of my S2 images to get a feel of it. The problem is that I just don't have any photos where the corners are in the same focal plane as the point of focus - at least none that I could find that have anything with a detailed subject matter which could be used to judge corner sharpness. Now that my curiosity is peaked again I may try to find a brick wall to shoot if I can also find the time.

    Mark

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Actually I find this image quite disturbing. The focus on the left stump or boat tie down is very sharp but the water tower is sharp in the distance but at the same distance as the boat tie down the right side is completely out of focus. This makes zero sense to me. The yellow should be sharp but the red in the background shot at F8 really should not be holding sharpness at that level given the boat tie down is pretty close. I find this weird myself but maybe I'm nuts. No offense either but these are over sharpened and look unnatural. I shot the S2 and the 70 this system is no better than my Phase sorry. Actually I thought the 180 S2 lens was the better lens. Honestly I don't care either way but this looks funky to me and NOT my experience with the S2 processed very carefully. Marks looks more on the mark to me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Tim (of whom I think he really knows his stuff) posted some informative images.

    (Tim... I hope it's okay to post the links? As you made this gallery public I thought it might be okay. If not please let me know... thanks!)

    f6.7 - the foreground is maybe not too bad but the midground (do you say so?) - which is actually in the focus plane at the center of the image - is quite soft: http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p627107...b8e2#h2eb5b8e2

    f8 - looks a bit better. However at this price for a 70mm and the "big" name Leica I would expect something in the ballpark of a Digitar or HR (especially if you take into consideration that Leica designed the lenses for this relatively small sensor from scratch): http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p627107...cc304#h36cc304

    f2.8 - now this is really impressive for f2.8. Especially in the center but even at the egdes (as it is literally wide open). But that's also relatively close distance: http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p627107...9232#h3b999232

    The S2 RAWs from Jacks and Guys review mostly look worse at the edges. Especially compared to the P40+ (with 645 lenses cropped...).

    Still... it's hard to tell from these few images. I don't say the S2/70mm is bad at the edges... but by now I've simply just seen images that do not convince me that a $$$ Leica 70mm is any better than an eBay Contax 2.0/80 for $300,- on a crop 1.1 digiback (actually... the contrary as the look of the Contax is more even stopped down to my eyes).
    Last edited by thomas; 24th March 2010 at 06:26.

  18. #3818
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually I find this image quite disturbing. The focus on the left stump or boat tie down is very sharp but the water tower is sharp in the distance but at the same distance as the boat tie down the right side is completely out of focus. This makes zero sense to me. The yellow should be sharp but the red in the background shot at F8 really should not be holding sharpness at that level given the boat tie down is pretty close. I find this weird myself but maybe I'm nuts. No offense either but these are over sharpened and look unnatural. I shot the S2 and the 70 this system is no better than my Phase sorry. Actually I thought the 180 S2 lens was the better lens. Honestly I don't care either way but this looks funky to me and NOT my experience with the S2 processed very carefully. Marks looks more on the mark to me

    I didn't know that the S2 had swings

  19. #3819
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I didn't know that the S2 had swings
    Exactly --- or more precisely swings AND tilts! That image looks like the lens plane is not parallel to the sensor, with lens angled slightly up and right relatively. Or it could possibly be partially what Thomas was referring to, soft corner performance exacerbating the effect. According to the EXIF the shot was taken at f8, so I am surprised by this behavior. Methinks some gear testing may be in order for xpixel...

    PS: Actually, the non-planar OOF rendering may be what gives the illusion of depth that Victor is seeing...

    Here is the relative POF as I see it, axis in yellow:
    Jack
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    That image looks like the lens plane is not parallel to the sensor, with lens angled slightly up and right relatively.
    yes, possibly. It looks like my P45 that first had a tilted, swinged and rotated sensor... Back then the service replaced the entire sensor mounting.

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Could be a out of alignment sensor, or perhaps a slightly cocked internal lens element.
    It is really tough to be sure with this image, but the plane of best focus seems to curve a bit to my eye, almost sort of an elliptical region, which strikes me as possibly lens related.
    thanks
    -bob

  22. #3822
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    That's a good call Bob, the "plane" of focus does appear to be oddly curved, which would indicate an cocked lens element and not an out of parallel sensor...
    Jack
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Jack,

    Isn't it possible that the rail car is sufficiently close to the camera to account for the apparent anomaly? It might be that the bollard is just within the range of sharpness, while the near end of the car is too close to be.

    Steve

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Well I knew I was not seeing things right.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    I would take that rig and find me a nice brick wall to shoot dead square.
    Shoot as wide as it goes then stop down shot by shot to see what happens.
    -bob

  26. #3826
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Jack,

    Isn't it possible that the rail car is sufficiently close to the camera to account for the apparent anomaly? It might be that the bollard is just within the range of sharpness, while the near end of the car is too close to be.

    Steve
    There are a whole bunch of things that could be going on. First is, very few lenses that are highly corrected for distortion render a "plane" of sharp focus. Instead it often follows the path of a gentle second-order curve that bends toward the camera as we approach the edges of the frame. And with aspheric elements, I've even seen this curve appear as third order ("W" or mustache shaped), which is really screwy to look at!

    The Leica 70mm is an asphere and the plane of focus seems to flow AWAY from the camera toward the edges which would lead me to conclude it is a gentile 3rd order progression. Thus I would suspect that we are dealing with a mustache plane of focus in this 70mm lens design coupled with a sensor that is slightly out of parallel with the lensmount.

    Of course, none of this would have been visible with film, but now we're down to 100% view on 6 micron pixels, which is the same thing as saying we expect about 6x more stringent CoC's with these MF sensors than we ever did for MF film...
    Jack
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Boy, you guys got some sharp eagle eyes there...

  28. #3828
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Aging eyes are hard to fool. Just ask any good looking lady. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm


    Last edited by xpixel; 24th March 2010 at 12:35.

  30. #3830
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm

    Its a crop from the picture...!



  31. #3831
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm


  32. #3832
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm


  33. #3833
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Really enjoying those S2 images. Thanks so much for posting.

  34. #3834
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Exactly --- or more precisely swings AND tilts! That image looks like the lens plane is not parallel to the sensor, with lens angled slightly up and right relatively. Or it could possibly be partially what Thomas was referring to, soft corner performance exacerbating the effect. According to the EXIF the shot was taken at f8, so I am surprised by this behavior. Methinks some gear testing may be in order for xpixel...

    PS: Actually, the non-planar OOF rendering may be what gives the illusion of depth that Victor is seeing...

    Here is the relative POF as I see it, axis in yellow:
    Looking at the rail ties there appears to be 10+ degrees of swing....camera not pointed paralled to the line?

    Bob

  35. #3835
    Subscriber gogopix's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    The answer is; 42!

    Remember the question?

    Trying to dope out POF etc from reduced jpgs is quite a challenge. I think it's time to just step back (figuatively ) and see if the images are pleasing and have good qualities. From the non analytical comments seems they are impressing people, including me.

    FWIW, fucus is 1/3 freom 2/3 back from POF and I think both Guy and Jack are focused (sic!) too close in. The yellow circles of Guy seem to be way up at the front of the focus range, and the reds are not in focus at all (except the tank top.

    With 7-8 elements in 5-6 groups sherical lenses will have a somewhat curved plane of focus, and all lenses are a 'little off' Without an ASPH component you get color separation too.

    What I'm going to do is just collect a bunch of S2 and compare to my images and some Phase and some hasseys. It's really the only way to see whether one system is pleasing TO ME. Others may want to try.

    Actually Guy's larger images may be more valuable, and some of Tim's that he posted. I will look at on my 2560x1600 at 30" Not the best, but this kind of pixel peeping can drive you mad

    Victor

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 70 mm


  37. #3837
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm


  38. #3838
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm ISO 1250


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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Leica S2 - 70 mm - used a flash unit

    Its really not easy to shoot a watch if its a used one...


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    Re: Fun with MF images

    I tend to think the things people are seeing are because of the type of sharpening applied, in terms of masking and pixel width and what type of structures are emphasized by it, and the effects of downsampling then compressing for the web. Simple as that I reckon.

  41. #3841
    Senior Member Bill Caulfeild-Browne's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    I'm playing with the square format though this one isn't quite so. Early today. Also the last shot (#1,033) from the original DF batteries!


  42. #3842
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Another fun square shot. Looks a little over-sharpened but the ends of some of her black fur are white.

  43. #3843
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    What a great series, Mark!
    I love steam!
    Bill
    Ditto - great shots of a great engine
    Odille

    H2 | P20 | HC 50-110 | HC 150 f3.2 | HC 210 f4 ~ My Website

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    I love this one...especially the wonderful eyes!!! eleanor

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Another fun square shot. Looks a little over-sharpened but the ends of some of her black fur are white.

  45. #3845
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Great shot Bill, love the eyes!
    Jack
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Tested the new Profoto stuff for its´ability to freeze motion:

    Philipp Derganz Photography
    Fotograf Wien Österreich

  47. #3847
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Philipp -- excellent capture!
    Jack
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  48. #3848
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Very Nice
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Fun with MF images



    my new 503CW with a 40 CFE IF on it not bad straight into afternoon sun -
    Last edited by PeterA; 1st April 2010 at 01:07.

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    Re: Fun with MF images

    Bill, great shots on this page. I like the square format too.

    Philipp, I did a similar test with Broncolor. Great when this stuff works as advertised.

    Peter, I really like that shot. Looks like a nice spot to unwind with a cigar and a glass of wine after a tough day trading...

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