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Considering Medium Format

carstenw

Active member
From a shooting perspective it is hard to beat the Hassy. I really like the ergonomics but some folks really prefer the more DSLR feel of the Phase.
Woody, I am not familiar with the Hasselblad H. What is it about it which is less DSLR-like than the Mamiya?
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
(As a Hy6-Sinar54r user (just for a few weeks) I would lile to throw in some points about this system:
Since the Hy6 is a 6x6-system you can use a rotating back and switch from vertical to horicontal very fast and convenient. If Waist level finder might be of interest this makes the camera very well for wasit level finder use. If you shoot the Hy6 with other finders the rotating back is still great because you will not need any vertical grips and still have a very good grip of the camera.

On the other side the lenses for 6x6 are somwhat bigger and heavier compared to 645 lenses.
I would think the higher weight is not only needed for the bigger format and the leaf-shutter-also feel mecanically very nice and solid.
I dont have enough experience to comment on the optical quality-but what I see so far from the 40 Schneider, the 80 Xenotar and the 150Zeiss looks pretty good to me.
The prices for new lenses are high but you can get used samples for reaonable prices (for example I paid 470 € for the 150) -still higher than used mamiya lenses.

Personally I find the camera and lenses at least as important as the back.
The back will maybe be replaced when sensors are further developped, but if you have good lenses and a camera with a good user interface you might keep it for a longer time (eventually ;) )

So here are the factors I would want to add to the ones which were allready mentioned:
-evaluate if WLF might be something you want to use sometimes
-would a rotating back be helpfull if you switch often between vertical and horicontal
-weight and size of the systems (do you want to use it as only system, or together with a smaller SLR?, do you want more DSLR feel or more traditional medium format feel-personally I am happy with a bigger MF-system since I also use a Nikon and a M8 system-this might be different if it was my only system)
-lenses: The range of Hy6 lenses is somewhat limited but than again there is some really great glass included.
Cheers, Tom
It's posts like this that make me so proud to be on this forum. That's some really A+ advice.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I am considering jumping to medium format to do architecture and real estate photography for a few local real estate offices. I am getting a lot of people asking me to do virtual tours for them and they are requesting high resolution tours since many of the real estate offices deal with British citizens on holiday. What would you suggest using besides the typical tilt shift lenses and 28mm choices?

What companies do you think are the most secure choices for long term stability?

The ones with the best cameras seems to be the Hy6, H3D II and the Phase one Camera. What has been your experiences with them? Most of the photographers in my town that are advertising their services are simply using D70's or on the rare occasion a D300 or Canon equivalent. We have homes that the real estate agents have listed in the 500K to 10 million dollar range in my town and the area is really not well handled.

Also coming from using a DSLR, I have done a lot of available light shooting and would like to continue, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to continue doing that with medium format?

Peter
I've read this entire thread, and in the "selling frenzy" no one has asked EXACTLY what you will be doing with this gear. I understand high-end architectural shots, but to what end as it relates to local real estate offices? How will they be used and viewed? What does high resolution "virtual tours" mean? How will they be used? Virtual tours as produced for most end users (especially real estate) most certainly doesn't require anything near a MF Digital solution ... you have to downsize everything or have 50 gigs of RAM to produce it ;) ... and then no one on the receiving end would be able to view the end result.:wtf:

IMHO, a Canon 5D-MKII and some T/S lenses would do the job splendidly. Better to spend the cash on lighting systems which is where the difference between mediocre and great really is.

Depending on the deeper answers, just keeping it real.
 
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petermacc

Guest
From one former Michigander to current one. They are looking for being able to use the photos to create 10x14 and larger view books to show off the homes which are on the LOW end 650K-1 mil end up to 6 million in the town. Lots of homes with more than 6 bed 6 bath and looking to do a higher quality than OBEO quality in a java or quicktime format for the virtual tours, since most of the tours that are done with canons or nikons so far tend to be a bit soft in the details. I also have not found many good tilt shift lens in the wide angle in 35mm format. The widest I found in 35mm was Canon at 24mm at a 3.5 aperture. Also you get tons of people using prosumer equipment in the area but are charging the long dollar and delivering images that depending on how the realtor uses them (ie cropping for a ad in the paper or real estate magazines) wind up only being 2 megapixels by the time they are cropped to show what they want in the image.

The images online they are looking to be able to send to people over in england as links via a program like zoomify where they may be selling a multi million dollar home to someone and to get them to spend the money on a ticket over they want to show the most detail in the photos.
 
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petermacc

Guest
Guy did ask, I remember him asking. To the extent as far as lighting goes some of these places they want to show off I think bracketing your exposures would be an alternative as well as a nice supplement of adding addition light sources since there wouldn't always be a way to have lights in the smaller rooms etc. :D
 

woodyspedden

New member
Woody, I am not familiar with the Hasselblad H. What is it about it which is less DSLR-like than the Mamiya?
Hi Carsten

The Mamiya or Phase (same camera) looks and feels like a typical 35mm DSLR. The Hasselblad, on the other hand, has a profile which is quite different from the Mamiya or Phase. I find the ergonomics of the Hassy to be superior but that is just my opinion. The viewfinder is quite a bit brighter. You must use the wrist strap to be able to shoot handheld but that is no big deal. Once you learn the position of the various (little) buttons and use the viewfinder you can do almost anything without taking the viewfinder away from your eyes.Love it.

This is, of course, very subjective, so you must take it all with a grain of salt. I love mine and others hate it. So you have to go to your dealer and experience it for yourself. Try it and see if it works for you

Best

Woody
 
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petermacc

Guest
Is there any way to do a trial of a H3D II 39 mp? I found a dealer that would let me do a trial of a Phase One camera. Has anyone ever bought from KEH?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
From one former Michigander to current one. They are looking for being able to use the photos to create 10x14 and larger view books to show off the homes which are on the LOW end 650K-1 mil end up to 6 million in the town. Lots of homes with more than 6 bed 6 bath and looking to do a higher quality than OBEO quality in a java or quicktime format for the virtual tours, since most of the tours that are done with canons or nikons so far tend to be a bit soft in the details. I also have not found many good tilt shift lens in the wide angle in 35mm format. The widest I found in 35mm was Canon at 24mm at a 3.5 aperture. Also you get tons of people using prosumer equipment in the area but are charging the long dollar and delivering images that depending on how the realtor uses them (ie cropping for a ad in the paper or real estate magazines) wind up only being 2 megapixels by the time they are cropped to show what they want in the image.

The images online they are looking to be able to send to people over in england as links via a program like zoomify where they may be selling a multi million dollar home to someone and to get them to spend the money on a ticket over they want to show the most detail in the photos.
Hmmm, I have a friend that does those "virtual tours" with a Pentax digital camera (and doesn't even use a T/S lens) and they are not soft in the details at all ... it would seem that Java and QT resolutions are the limiting aspects, not the cameras or lenses.
 
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petermacc

Guest
In order to justify the cost to them they have to see a better result visible. A lot of it is strictly setting the bar higher than the competition can compete with. A large portion of it is also them requesting images that can be cropped and still be 10+ megapixels. I am not going to argue with potential clients. I say "if you want that is fine." This is not just virtual tours but their portfolios to do with what they desire. I don't ask why they want the specs they do, I show up and do my job better than the competition. :)

Most of the stuff that is online via OBEO or ipix is really low quality out there. As long as the competition buys consumer grade slrs, my plan is to do the job even better and with higher quality. You could shoot multiple focusing depth of field and stack them in photoshop to produce a deep DOF as a work around but the way I see it is that if I do it right outside the camera it requires less work in post processing. The more efficient I am the more jobs I can do and start paying off the equipment faster.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
In order to justify the cost to them they have to see a better result visible. A lot of it is strictly setting the bar higher than the competition can compete with. A large portion of it is also them requesting images that can be cropped and still be 10+ megapixels. I am not going to argue with potential clients. I say "if you want that is fine." This is not just virtual tours but their portfolios to do with what they desire. I don't ask why they want the specs they do, I show up and do my job better than the competition. :)

Most of the stuff that is online via OBEO or ipix is really low quality out there. As long as the competition buys consumer grade slrs, my plan is to do the job even better and with higher quality. You could shoot multiple focusing depth of field and stack them in photoshop to produce a deep DOF as a work around but the way I see it is that if I do it right outside the camera it requires less work in post processing. The more efficient I am the more jobs I can do and start paying off the equipment faster.
Yep, understand the concept of out gunning the competition and selling that capability to potential clients. I was just applying the "Horses for Courses" principle to what appears to be a low resolution "Virtual Tour" end product no matter what camera you use. But for other uses, and the ability to use the files in more aggressive crops and so on, MFD indeed IS an excellent selling feature and unmatched in IQ by any 35mm DSLR.

BTW, another application that wows the clients socks off is doing stitched panoramics with a MF digital camera.

As far as where to buy, may I suggest contacting any of the professional MFD dealers that have posted on this thread as opposed to a regular camera dealer. I think most owners of these cameras will agree that after purchase service/support is more important with Medium Format Digital than it is with any 35mm type DSLRs.

I've owned and/or used most all of the MFD systems and they are all very good with relatively small differences in end quality. So shooting preferences are basically what it comes down to in the end when selecting which way to go. Others have outlined their preferences for Phase One and some Sinar possibilities. My current preference is for the Hasselblad H3D-II/39 because I need/want the high sync speed, and a fully integrated system ... including the new HT/S adapter with programed electronic corrections for tilt/shift location work with the 28, 35, 50, 80 and 100mm lenses ... and I have a full compliment of Zeiss V 500 series lenses that sync to 1/500 and work fully "auto stop down" when mounted on an H camera via the CF adapter.


No matter what way you go, best of luck, and welcome to the MFD club. :thumbs:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
In order to justify the cost to them they have to see a better result visible. A lot of it is strictly setting the bar higher than the competition can compete with. A large portion of it is also them requesting images that can be cropped and still be 10+ megapixels. I am not going to argue with potential clients. I say "if you want that is fine." This is not just virtual tours but their portfolios to do with what they desire. I don't ask why they want the specs they do, I show up and do my job better than the competition. :)

Most of the stuff that is online via OBEO or ipix is really low quality out there. As long as the competition buys consumer grade slrs, my plan is to do the job even better and with higher quality. You could shoot multiple focusing depth of field and stack them in photoshop to produce a deep DOF as a work around but the way I see it is that if I do it right outside the camera it requires less work in post processing. The more efficient I am the more jobs I can do and start paying off the equipment faster.
Yep, understand the concept of out gunning the competition and selling that capability to potential clients. I was just applying the "Horses for Courses" principle to what appears to be a low resolution "Virtual Tour" end product no matter what camera you use. But for other uses, and the ability to use the files in more aggressive crops and so on, MFD indeed IS an excellent selling feature and unmatched in IQ by any 35mm DSLR.

BTW, another application that wows the clients socks off is doing stitched panoramics with a MF digital camera.

As far as where to buy, may I suggest contacting any of the professional MFD dealers that have posted on this thread as opposed to a regular camera dealer. I think most owners of these cameras will agree that after purchase service/support is more important with Medium Format Digital than it is with any 35mm type DSLRs.

I've owned and/or used most all of the MFD systems and they are all very good with relatively small differences in end quality. So shooting preferences are basically what it comes down to in the end when selecting which way to go. Others have outlined their preferences for Phase One and some Sinar possibilities. My current preference is for the Hasselblad H3D-II/39 because I need/want the high sync speed, and a fully integrated system ... including the new HT/S adapter with programed electronic corrections for tilt/shift location work with the 28, 35, 50, 80 and 100mm lenses ... and I have a full compliment of Zeiss V 500 series lenses that sync to 1/500 and work fully "auto stop down" when mounted on an H camera via the ingenious Hasselblad CF adapter ... and is the only 645D system that does so.


No matter which way you go, best of luck, and welcome to the MFD club :thumbs:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well I am in the camp of hitting clients with the biggest gun I can find or afford. Another reason i went MF is any client can buy a 5D and try and do stuff themselves and they do. But when they need talent and big files than I am a phone call away. Plus i can provide better than the local competition. Really you want a edge in these hard times, so yes if you can justify it and provide that edge than you will recoup the investment.

I also agree with Marc regardless of what system you chose find a dealer that you can work with. Service and support I have found to be invaluable in MF and frankly i want my hand held and not having to try and get something from B&H or going through the OEM's directly for service. Not that there bad but a quick phone call on a question or issue makes life just a little easier on you.

Now lighting is another area that will come into play. Here is the secret on lighting, don't buy the crap stuff. i know that was pretty blunt but lighting is something that you buy to last awhile and not as disposable as camera's are. They can last as much as 5 years or longer without any major changes to the system. Look at some of the better ones that are still affordable.Profoto, Hensel, Elinchrom, Dynalite and a few others that are not going to kill the bank account but still provide quality and constant color temp in output. Home interiors i find the Monolights slightly better because you are not tied into a pack and can spread them from room to room. I also have a Elinchrom Ranger Battery at 1100 ws that i find very useful inside and out. Check out the lighting forum. Some nice idea's on lighting there. Look at lighting as a real investment because of there long life in use
 
T

Theo

Guest
Hi there,
all I can say is that after having made the change to the Hy6, I will never look back!
The Schenider and Zeiss glass is my favorite anyway, and the Sinar back is a dream. Also my dealer is giving me good trade-in/trade-up value with new Sinar backs, so I am no complaining there either.
I have not used the Sinar Artec camera yet, but just played with it at the show. It looks to be a real find for architectural photography, and if I were you, I would certainly take a close look at it.
Good luck with your choices!
Theo
 
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petermacc

Guest
Well I am in the camp of hitting clients with the biggest gun I can find or afford. Another reason i went MF is any client can buy a 5D and try and do stuff themselves and they do. But when they need talent and big files than I am a phone call away."

Most of the people locally here have been using their little P+S, I have a different acronym for most of them.

I also agree with Marc regardless of what system you chose find a dealer that you can work with. Service and support I have found to be invaluable in MF and frankly i want my hand held and not having to try and get something from B&H or going through the OEM's directly for service. Not that there bad but a quick phone call on a question or issue makes life just a little easier on you.

Guy, I agree with you there. I got a lot of really good info from you here as well and this place is a treasure trove of information, not to mention artistic!

The closest town to me that deals with Phase One or Medium format is Tampa so I am going to speak with them more about this after the holidays are over at Image Productions. I also think being able to drive to get something rented, fixed or spur of the moment purchase is a good idea. Well, not so much the spur of the moment as a good idea. That could really be a double edged sword! ;)

I can't imagine buying any of these cameras without trying them out. The local shops in town have expressed no interest in selling equipment for medium format shooting.

I was rather frustrated a few weeks ago when I went into the local camera shop in the area of FL I live and was asked "Why the heck would you want to buy a camera that will cost you 40K minimum? You can buy a D3 or D3x for less than 25% of that cost." Never mind that you can get into medium format a lot cheaper than that and closer to the costs of the Pro Nikon bodies or insert canon for nikon depending on your position. I was even told that Mamiya is out of the camera business by several people.:wtf: It is a side of the camera world that is really hard for people to understand these days so forums like this and honest reputable dealers are a godsend.


Now lighting is another area that will come into play. Here is the secret on lighting, don't buy the crap stuff. i know that was pretty blunt but lighting is something that you buy to last awhile and not as disposable as camera's are. They can last as much as 5 years or longer without any major changes to the system. Look at some of the better ones that are still affordable.Profoto, Hensel, Elinchrom, Dynalite and a few others that are not going to kill the bank account but still provide quality and constant color temp in output. Home interiors i find the Monolights slightly better because you are not tied into a pack and can spread them from room to room. I also have a Elinchrom Ranger Battery at 1100 ws that i find very useful inside and out. Check out the lighting forum. Some nice idea's on lighting there. Look at lighting as a real investment because of there long life in use


Lighting definitely seems to be an interesting place to look next since it is the foundation of all photography. I have found that anytime you stop gap on your purchases for work reasons you pay twice easily.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
STAY OUT OF CAMERA SHOPS. Except for a select few that are here and we talk about, they will always try to sell you what they have or can get. LOL

There are exceptions of course . David at Dale and Sean at Camera West are dear friends and great retailers. Plus some of the Samy's and B&H where pro sales are made your dealing with what they know and that is ultimately what they sell. MF stuff is generally not stocked on shelves nor will they give you the service and support your after. I also like your thoughts on the lighting , yes do it once and get it over with and make sure it will last a long time and is good stuff.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Hi Peter

I’ve just re-read the excellent points brought here by Jack and Guy as well as others and wanted to add a couple comments as well.

The first thing to consider in medium format is it isn’t cheap and in many ways it shouldn’t be. The other consideration is how the body feels to me in my hands might be completely opposite in yours. You really need to try out the various bodies before you spend the cash that’ll be needed (consider the cost of a good used car vs. the cost of the gear).

It’s the camera body that’ll be in your hands and up to your eyes and if it doesn’t “fit” then you’ll have a problem. I think simply put the camera body has to do something for you (there’s a car commercial in the States that goes like this – “When you turn your car on does it return the favor?”).:bugeyes:

I’ll explain my thought process when I switched to medium format.

The body:

I tried two bodies, Hasselblad and Mamiya and went with a Mamiya 645 AFDII (later upgraded to a Phase One 645 III) as I liked the way the Mamiya felt in my hands. Part of this “feeling” was that I felt almost no difference between the Canon 1Ds II that I had shot my landscapes with and the AFD.

The lens:

In choosing the Mamiya I also found that I was able to get excellent lens at an affordable price something I had no experience with while using the Canon.

The back:

The final piece of the puzzle was the digital back. After doing my due diligence, I picked Phase One as the company (I have since completely forgot who else was in the running and have never looked back). My first digital back was the P30+ which I used with great success, producing outstanding images that have not only been published but more importantly sold.

I have only recently added a technical camera to my kit bag (had to get another to fit it all) and choose the Cambo RS 1000. The major factor in deciding the RS1000 over the Cambo WDS was that Cambo designed the RS 1000 for digital. The RS has all the movements on the rear plus it has geared movements making repeatability great when applying multiple movements. While I plan to use the Cambo RS 1000 as my main landscape camera I’ll be keeping the AFD III for those times when I need or want a “point and shoot”.

The last comment I want to add is the need to find the best dealer you can; in this case price isn’t everything. Having a great dealer is much like having a good marriage. There are a couple of great posts here from two people that I consider friends from one company that you should consider contacting.

I don’t want to turn this into a sales pitch for either a dealer or camera kit; my final suggestion is to keep doing what you are doing, that is research. Don’t be influenced by anything or anyone other than yourself as in the end the entire kit must not only fit your hands and style but your checkbook.

Almost forgot to add this. Regarding KEH – I’ve brought and sold to them in the past – consider KEH as the Carmax for camera goods. I’ve always found them to be fair when selling to them and I’ve found their ratings for good received to be under-rated (meaning if they say the condition is a “9” it will more than likely be “like new”.

These have been my incoherent ramblings and I’ll get off my soapbox now and wish you good luck and happy hunting.

don
 

jlm

Workshop Member
something to bear in mind when shooting architecturals:

shift is very useful for perspective correction. usually it is only found with Nikon or canon TS or PC lenses in 35mm format and even harder to find in MF without using a special body like the Horseman SW or equivalent. if you need to eliminate converging verticals you will need to look into this. (Guy likes the 12' step ladder) check out some of Jim collum's posts using the Horseman, for example

wide angle: MF lens availability and the crop factor makes it tough to get really wide; again shifting will help or pano's and stitching
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Little trick I do with my tripod is I get it perfect level with a Pano clamp than i put the camera on and raise it to where I need to be. So many times i will be on a short ladder , hey I am short what can i say but I get the tripod to where i think I want it than make that level adjustment than put the camera on. This way i know immediately I am all square. I also shoot tethered and do NOT underestimate that ability about the best thing since sliced bread. You know EXACTLY what you have before packing those bags. Trust me software is more important than anyone thinks. Usually this will save your bacon knowing you got what you need.
 
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