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Considering Medium Format

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petermacc

Guest
I am considering jumping to medium format to do architecture and real estate photography for a few local real estate offices. I am getting a lot of people asking me to do virtual tours for them and they are requesting high resolution tours since many of the real estate offices deal with British citizens on holiday. What would you suggest using besides the typical tilt shift lenses and 28mm choices?

What companies do you think are the most secure choices for long term stability?

The ones with the best cameras seems to be the Hy6, H3D II and the Phase one Camera. What has been your experiences with them? Most of the photographers in my town that are advertising their services are simply using D70's or on the rare occasion a D300 or Canon equivalent. We have homes that the real estate agents have listed in the 500K to 10 million dollar range in my town and the area is really not well handled.

Also coming from using a DSLR, I have done a lot of available light shooting and would like to continue, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to continue doing that with medium format?

Peter
 
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petermacc

Guest
I am also concerned about Hasselblad. Is it true they eliminated their trade in to newer gear upgrade paths? I don't want to be stuck with a 20 value% trade in 12 months later!
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Hi Peter, and welcome to the forum!

If you peruse our MF forum, you will find answers to many of your questions already discussed.

Aside from that, here are a few points I would offer to anybody contemplating the move to MF digital for any reason:

1) First, deciding on the brand of back you want may help to focus the decision on which camera platform to adopt. All the current backs are capable of producing excellent images, so the main differentiators will probably be the software, the size and resolution of the rear LCD, UI, tethered operability/functionality (again software), and finally if long exposure capability is a concern, some of the backs are limited to 60 second exposure maximum. Finally, dealer or manufacturer responsiveness, support and service and even "upgrade paths" are probably worth considering.

2) Assuming you get the back choice narrowed down to a few, then start looking at the camera platform. Here, at least IMHO, the first consideration is leaf shutter lenses (higher flash synch) or focal plane shutter body (higher maximum shutter speeds). At present no company offers both in one body, but a few have rumored future options in that direction. After that it will likely boil down to body features, ergonomics, lens quality, lens line depth and availability, and finally pricing. And of course again, dealer service and support.

3) You mentioned architecture, so you may want to use your back with digital-specific lenses on a shift-camera like the Alpa, Cambo, Horseman, or a tilt-shift camera like the Silvestri or Sinar, or even a view camera. Most any of the contemporary backs will couple to most of these cameras, though some ofer only proprietary mounts and interfaces, so it is worthwhile to consider these options carefully.

4) I'll add in a 4th consideration to any/all of the above -- resale-ability. Definitely a consideration for an investment of this size.

I suspect if you create a decision matrix with the important criteria for you, the right solution will ultimately surface. However be forewarned that there is no ideal all-in-one solution, and every current combination of choices will have its own set of compromises for any given task.

Again welcome, and let us know how you progress!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Peter besides Jacks excellent points you have to decide also what you want to accomplish. Since others in the area are doing it with small format 35mm will moving to MF give you a competitive advantage. Now for me wanting to do more of this myself , my answer is yes but i already have a system and use it for all my work. So it was natural for me to adapt to MF for this stuff also. In my case i went with a Mamiya 28mm to handle it without going down the tech camera path and it is working out. Now to make that point to have a MF system already only two OEM's have 28mm as there lenses. Mamiya and Hassy both have these ultra wide 28mm in there lineup which is about a 21mm in MF depending on sensor size. I have not shot the Hassy myself but i do hear it is a nice lens and nice corrections for it in there software Phocus. I will let the Hassy shooters describe that lens more to you. I shoot the Mamiya 28mm with a P25 Plus back. Now instead Of talking about it here is a thread that shows what the 28mm can do for interiors. One thing to point out is in all of these images i am using lighting and you have to decide this also. If you want to do available light only you are going to run into things that are impossible to avoid and one is blowing out any daylight coming in. But here is a good thread that walks you through a lot of this and may explain doing interiors with MF better than me just talking about it. I would rather show you what I do. Now you could apply some of this to the Hassy 28mm as well. Hopefully this helps

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3856
 
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petermacc

Guest
I read your excellent post on interior shooting a few days back I have been lurking around in here the last four days. That is exactly the kind of look in the photos I am looking for. I am looking at getting a panning kit from Really right stuff to do virtual tours and am obviously going to have to pick up some tilt shift lenses. What do you consider a necessary lighting kit for your work?

Also I would love to hear from anyone using Hasselblad, as they are very tough to find people who are using them on a daily basis. Has anyone used both Hy6 and the phase one camera and which do they prefer and why?
 
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woodyspedden

New member
Peter

Hasselblad cancelled their trade in programs when they reduced virtually all of their prices by 20%. That was for bodies only but during the holiday season they also reduced the prices for their lenses by 25%. I doubt they could both reduce the prices by these amounts and then provide a generous trade in program as well. (Of course you can always negotiate with your dealer to get a good trade in and then just see where it goes.)

It is unlikely that you will suffer a loss as many of us who bought the Hassy before the price reduction did. In my case I bought my system about 4 weeks before the announcement and was offered nothing to retain my good will. However I am glad for the industry and the shooters that they can get such a great system at these prices. ($21K for an H3DII-39 with 80mm lens!) I paid $28K for the same combo.

From a shooting perspective it is hard to beat the Hassy. I really like the ergonomics but some folks really prefer the more DSLR feel of the Phase. The phocus software is very good and gives you the software DAC corrections which are really important for the 28mm as it was designed with software rather than optical corrections for distortion, color aberrations and vignetting. If you prefer other raw software you can simply bring the 3FR files into Phocus and then immediately export as a DNG which then can be used in all the other converters of your preference. However with the 28mm lens the DAC corrections are not included in the DNG file. So you would export these files as TIFFs which again can be used with other programs e.g. ACR, Lightroom etc. Lots of choices.

Finally the issue comes as to whether you want to shoot with a leaf shutter system (Hassy) or a focal plane system (Phase). This basically comes down to a preference for high speed flash sync with the Hassy central leaf shutters or the high speed of the Phase system with flash sync limited to a much lower speed (I think 1/60 of a second but it may be 1/125. You'll have to ask the Phase shooters about that one.) Neither system is well done as to weather sealing for harsh weather. However people use both for architectural shoots and I can't believe it only occurs during bright sunny days.

From a lens standpoint both systems provide very high quality options. The Phase system works with a long history of Mamiya lenses and the Hassy system with all of the legacy Zeiss V system lenses using an adapter provided by Hasselblad. So both systems provide options from 28MM to 300MM which is about the whole deal for medium format.

One other difference is use of a waist level finder. WLF. This is possible with the Hassy and not for the Phase. However even the Hassy approach is a little non-conventional using a finder which you have to bring your eye down to the camera to use. It works well but is not what I would love to have for a WLF. To get a conventional WLF you are best served by a Sinar or the Leaf system as well. If you only use the WLF occasionally then the hassy approach is just fine. But if you are used to the conventional WLF approach from, say, the Hassy 500 system or you use it constantly I would go for probably an HY6.

Sorry for the long and rambling answer but I wanted to provide as much completeness as I could to help you with your purchasing process.

Best

Woody
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well said Woody . Just a small correction the sync on the Phase is 1/125 and i should add in C1 lens corrections are possible with the 28mm, distortion, CA, Vignetting, purple fringing and light falloff. Not sure but I think Phocus may do more on there Hassy 28mm. Both great systems
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Both Hasselblad and Phase make good products. Check out the Hasselblad HTS attachment for use with 28/35/50/80 and 100 lenses it delivers tilt and shift with digital calibration in built via sensors and DAC software - with extension tubes , you can even do closeups. I am happy with the H series system - even though I bought before the massive price reduction. ( he says through gritted teeth and strained smile muscles).
 

carstenw

Active member
I know you are asking about support, so this is probably not an option for you, but I just wanted to mention it: The Contax 645 system is really great, with several amazing lenses, including the Distagon 35mm, which is the MF equivalent to the famous Contax 21mm Distagon, as well as the 120mm Macro lens, which is supposedly the sharpest MF macro lens. Everything can be found at really good prices, including a backup body, still for less than any of the other systems, and it is very popular, even among some professionals, and has great support from all the back manufacturers, except Hasselblad (I am not sure about Leaf). It has a true waist-level finder, as well as a spot- and matrix-metering prism.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I know you are asking about support, so this is probably not an option for you, but I just wanted to mention it: The Contax 645 system is really great, with several amazing lenses, including [...] the 120mm Macro lens, which is supposedly the sharpest MF macro lens.
The Hasselblad HC 120mm, Mamiya 120mm D, and the Contax 120mm are all razor sharp lenses. If one is sharper than the others it is only a on-paper sharpenss; in practice they are all about as sharp as you can get for everything up to and including the P65+.

The Contax system is a great system though and worth at least looking at. The main issue is that there won't be any future development and support/repair/replacement is strained (but possible).

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
From a lens standpoint both systems provide very high quality options. The Phase system works with a long history of Mamiya lenses and the Hassy system with all of the legacy Zeiss V system lenses using an adapter provided by Hasselblad. So both systems provide options from 28MM to 300MM which is about the whole deal for medium format.
[...]
Woody
Just a quick note that the Phase system can use all of the Hasselblad V system lenses as well as the legacy Mamiya lenses. In addition it can accept Pentax 6 glass.

I hope you're prepared to enter the inferno. As exhibited by the input of several people on this thread there are very few poor choices to be had in medium format digital. I sell Phase and believe very strongly in that product and could talk for ages about why we are a better choice than this brand or that brand (hey hassy: why can we do an hour exposure with the same sensor that you can't go past a minute with... o smack! :LOL:) BUT I'll be the first to admit that Hasselblad, Leaf, and Sinar also make good systems.

Your post here indicates that you're doing the appropriate amount of due-diligence. Make sure to actually shoot each of the products you're considering and take at least one picture all the way through to print. Software, workflow, raw-file flexibility and compatibility are almost as important as hardware (you'll spend at least half your time in your digital darkroom). This might mean a flight to sunny South Beach Florida (where we are) or to Moab where GetDPI's next workshop is (you could see a LOT of gear there).

Doug

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

Clawery

New member
Peter,

The DB is THE most important part of your decision overall, but it is only part of the overall purchase. Pay close attention to the prices of the additional lenses and peripheral items that you might need. The Hy6 lenses are quite high in price considering what Mamiya/ Phase and even Hasselblad offer.
A Hy6 150mm f/4 is $5,609.00 (found online 12/29/08) and a Mamiya is only $3,339.00.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Peter,

The DB is THE most important part of your decision overall, but it is only part of the overall purchase. Pay close attention to the prices of the additional lenses and peripheral items that you might need. The Hy6 lenses are quite high in price considering what Mamiya/ Phase and even Hasselblad offer.
A Hy6 150mm f/4 is $5,609.00 (found online 12/29/08) and a Mamiya is only $3,339.00.

Chris Lawery
Chris is even being modest. Since the Phase system accepts the manual focus legacy Mamiya glass (as well as the newer Phase One lenses, Mamiya D Lenses Hassy V, Pentax 6 lenses, and the Hartblei TS) you can find very very inexpensive versions of the lenses which won't be your primary workhorses but that you'd like to have for completeness/flexibility/variety.

- The 150mm AF f/2.8 Mamiya D is $3,339.00. [no CA and really sharp even at f/2.8]
- The 150mm AF f/3.5 version is $500 used* [modest CA and sharp at f/5.6 and up]
- The 150mm f/3.5 manual focus is $100 used* [medium CA and sharp at f/5.6 and up]

The f/2.8 lens is so free of CA and is so sharp even wide open and with such pleasant fall off that it's well worth the extra money IF that's going to be one of the lenses you use most often (e.g. for portrait photographers). But if for example you mostly shoot landscape then you can spend our big $$$ on the latest wide-angle lenses and pick up the 150 f/3.5 MF for $100. That lens won't look great when compared head to head with the newer f/2.8, but judged on it's own merit it's pretty darn good. And it's $100!

*Excellent Condition from KEH

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

carstenw

Active member
Chris, I would think that it would be possible to get them closer together in price than that. Anyway, the Rollei system has been around a long time, and it is possible to find many lenses second-hand for much better prices. Foto-Z would be able to provide some feedback there. Additionally, the Mamiya and Schneider/Zeiss lenses are not always of the same quality, depending on the lenses you compare, which is important to consider in the price, just like Leica vs. Canon, and so on.

The Contax 645 also takes Hasselblad lenses with adapters. I just picked up a really nice copy of the 110mm f/2, for example, but V lenses also work.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
- The 150mm f/3.5 manual focus is $100 used* [medium CA and sharp at f/5.6 and up]
Okay, it's a bit of a cheap shot I admit, and not entirely fair so take it mostly as a post for gee-whiz humor's sake, but it does say a little something about total-cost-of-ownership.

Rollei Lens Hood for 180mm lens: $244
Rollei Lens Hood for 80mm lens: $120

Replacement Mamiya hoods are generally in the $30-$50 range (45,55,80,120,150mm) though the 200mm/500mm hoods are $140, and $600 respectively.

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 

Paratom

Well-known member
(As a Hy6-Sinar54r user (just for a few weeks) I would lile to throw in some points about this system:
Since the Hy6 is a 6x6-system you can use a rotating back and switch from vertical to horicontal very fast and convenient. If Waist level finder might be of interest this makes the camera very well for wasit level finder use. If you shoot the Hy6 with other finders the rotating back is still great because you will not need any vertical grips and still have a very good grip of the camera.

On the other side the lenses for 6x6 are somwhat bigger and heavier compared to 645 lenses.
I would think the higher weight is not only needed for the bigger format and the leaf-shutter-also feel mecanically very nice and solid.
I dont have enough experience to comment on the optical quality-but what I see so far from the 40 Schneider, the 80 Xenotar and the 150Zeiss looks pretty good to me.
The prices for new lenses are high but you can get used samples for reaonable prices (for example I paid 470 € for the 150) -still higher than used mamiya lenses.

Personally I find the camera and lenses at least as important as the back.
The back will maybe be replaced when sensors are further developped, but if you have good lenses and a camera with a good user interface you might keep it for a longer time (eventually ;) )

So here are the factors I would want to add to the ones which were allready mentioned:
-evaluate if WLF might be something you want to use sometimes
-would a rotating back be helpfull if you switch often between vertical and horicontal
-weight and size of the systems (do you want to use it as only system, or together with a smaller SLR?, do you want more DSLR feel or more traditional medium format feel-personally I am happy with a bigger MF-system since I also use a Nikon and a M8 system-this might be different if it was my only system)
-lenses: The range of Hy6 lenses is somewhat limited but than again there is some really great glass included.
Cheers, Tom
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Regarding prices.
Mamiya used prices are great but might also indicate how things keep the value. First I was shocked about the Rollei lens prices - but even though the Rollei lenses keep their value a little better you can get them used for quite less than for new. I love the internet for that reason.
And if it was $ per gramm the Rollei lenses might even be lower in price than Mamiya ;)

I dont want to say one is better than the other I just would want to not let list-prices of hoods influence your decision too much.
 

carstenw

Active member
Prices for accessories are also highly variable, and it is likely that with time, more time for some bits, you will find a good deal. I got impatient with my Contax 645 35mm Distagon hood, and paid $200, but I also just picked up a Hasselblad 110mm f/2 hood in very good condition for 39 Euro, so you win some, you lose some.

I think that it is important that if you don't have millions, there is a healthy second-hand market where you are. The Rollei second-hand market in Europe is decent, but in the States it might be harder to find a good deal, and perhaps vice versa. I have never seen a Mamiya in the flesh, but perhaps that is because I currently live in Germany :)
 
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