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Capture One vs. Leaf Capture vs. Lightroom

Mgreer316

Member
Hey guys, I've been a professional wedding and portrait digital photographer for 13 years but I'm new to the medium format game. I have a DM33 back and I use PCs. I used C1 for several years starting back in 2003, switched to a bible Pro, RAW Shooter Pro, then settled on Lightroom 7 years ago.

So, I have the Aptus II back and I have 3 options to process files with. Leaf Capture only runs on Macs. So for this to be a consideration, I'd need to know what it does, if anything, that Capture One or LR don't do? Does it do something better? Under Phase management is it still going to be developed? Basically, is there any compelling reason to get outfitted to employ Leaf Capture?

I've run files through both C1 and LR. Thus far I'm only seeing issues of a subjective nature. Are there any functionality advantages that C1 has over LR with these files or with things like tethered operation?

Your assistance is very much appreciated as I navigate my way through this jungle.
 

Tibor

Member
Leaf Capture is no longer developed (I think 11 is the last version). The only advantage over C1 is the price. Leaf Capture is free. I switched from LR to C1 when I got my Leaf Aptus and could not be more satisfied with C1. The biggest advantage - rendering of the skin tones, just perfect. Other advantages: I really like working with sessions, a few neat tricks in tethered mode (overlay, composition mode, ...), fast and easy organisation within a session and best of all you are not tied to a predefined workspace design (like in LR) but can design your workspace in details as deep as it goes. Then there is focus mask, the excellent loupe tool and many many more advanced features (layered local adjustements, color wheel, ...).

I suggest you watch their excellent webinars and video tutorials before starting working with C1.

The only downside is that C1s Catalogs don`t work as good as Sessions, so if you are accustomed to LRs Catalogs I suggest switching your mindset to Sessions. They just work, flawless.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Since you're new here I should first point out my bias. Read my signature. Though I do try hard to provide accurate advice founded on real world experience I can't be considered entirely objective.

Here is a self-quote from a recent post on made on another forum regarding reasons to select C1 over LR:

Off the top of my head (I don't keep a list - things change too frequently):
- Better Color (subjective but found consistently enough by myself and a high enough % of customers to say with confidence) especially with strongly saturated colors, purple/pink/red crossovers, skintones, and in steep tonal transitions like strongly side-lit portraits.
- Better tonality especially in deep shadow detail
- Noise/Grain/Texture/Microcontrast which looks better if your aesthetic is to allow grain but want that grain to be gaussian, fine, and film like rather than clumpy and digitally blob-like. On the other hand if you're shooting fairly high ISO with a dSLR and want the "clean commercial look" LR4/5 does a better job of what I'd call the "sledgehammer" approach of noise reduction if you abhor noise/grain and want no part of it.
- More pro tools for tethering:
--- live view
--- camera controls
--- fixed-focus windows (e.g. for four-corner-and-center analysis in a product/catalog environment)
--- focus mask (especially powerful for first-round edits and shoots involving tilts/swings)
--- overlay (great when matching another shot, or fitting a layout, also useful for random applications like matching color in art repro settings or corporate color settings)
--- more detailed/flexible controls (assumes/requires more education and a desire for more power/nuance over first-glance-simplicity) like full RGB levels with numerical entry, more specific noise reduction sliders,
- LCC tool which is required for tech cameras, but useful in a variety of niche applications including art reproduction and catalog shooting and automatic dust removal
- Chromatic aberration and purple fringing tools that work better on a broader range of files with far less work/twiddling
- A better laid out system for local adjustments (I think I'm in the minority here)
- Far more customization of the user interface, especially handy on very small (e.g. 10" MBA) or very large monitors (e.g. 30" Eizo) or in multi-monitor environments. Every tool can be floated/added/removed/collapsed or put on a second monitor. Including keyboard shortcuts which are every power user's dream.
- Better laid out tools for manual keystone/perspective correction (also auto-integration with newer Phase One digital backs, though that only helps those shooters)
- Completely/immediately portable session layout. For anybody who uses multiple computers in their workflow this is a huge help. You don't have to export/splice/import/merge or do anything at all to move a C1 session from one computer to the other. Everything resides in the folder.
- Massively better color editing tool (Color Editor) which is harder to learn but far, far more powerful than the LR equivalent.
- Far more flexible process recipes/definitions/presets. I've set up some very sophisticated ones for clients which saved them many many hours every month.
- Much better support. P1 has no "low level" support folks. You don't need to get "elevated" to get past the person who can only really help with basic problems. Support cases are answered in hours (very often faster), not days. Dealer support (at least the value added dealers who have dedicated tech departments) includes weekend/holiday/night/crazy-emergency support and includes workflow/productivity style help not just "this button doesn't work"
- Faster processing in most cases (somewhat computer configuration dependent) with accurate time-to-completion times and preemptive scheduling (you can push a job to the front if you have a long queue that isn't a priority)

Downsides include:
- sometimes (though not always) being a few weeks behind LR on support of brand new cameras (since they are implementing the full SDK of the camera allowing live view, camera controls etc).
- higher learning curve (often requiring capture one classes)
- no prosumer features like Book/Map
- pretty limited print functionality (some printing workflows C1 can handle on it's own, but more could be handled in LR on it's own)
- spot removal tool is as good as LR4 but not as good as LR5. Not a deal breaker for my own personal work as I'd be hard pressed to not finish an image in Photoshop which requires pixel-level retouching, but for some workflows probably notable. Maybe C1v8?
- no history panel (maybe C1v8?)
- no highlight/shadow recovery in local adjustment system (you can accomplish the same thing with exposure/contrast tools but it requires more work)
- small ecosystem of education/training like with Adobe. This is greatly alleviated by having a good dealer who can easily answer your confused question when google/youtube fails you.

There are many more reasons (on both ends, pros and cons). But in general I see C1 targeting the pro market and making image-quality and pro-tools a high priority of design while LR tries to target pro and prosumer at the same time with the expected results of doing both quite well, but neither excellently.

I'd NEVER tell someone they should just run out and buy Capture One (or any other software for that matter). There is a 60 day fully functional trial for a reason. If it's not clear that it will benefit you enough to justify the cost then you don't spend a dime. In your case however you don't need to pay anything anyway. See my next post...
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Leaf Capture is no longer developed (I think 11 is the last version). The only advantage over C1 is the price. Leaf Capture is free.
Capture One DB, which is free, supports his DM33.

So both C1 and LC are free for his needs.

Capture One Pro, which extends support into the dSLR world does cost $299, but unless he wants to use the software with a dSLR he does not need the pro version.

I do believe Leaf Capture will continue to receive relevant maintenance updates for a while to support new OS's, but feature development and support for new cameras is definitely a no-go. All the R+D is going into Capture One.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Also notably the FILES will load in any of the three software suites. But tethering your Leaf is only supported in C1 and LC.
 

Egor

Member
One advantage to Leaf Capture, when tethered to Aptus2, is that the raw files it captures are not compressed the way C1 does it (for reasons that are a mystery to me). So you can open .mos files in ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) from Leaf Capture, but not from Capture One ( unless you convert them first using a converter program from Leaf)
This doesn't seem like a big deal, but if you like a simple workflow where you shoot tethered into Bridge/Photoshop, tag your selects quickly, and process in ACR, like we do, it is huge.
 

Mgreer316

Member
Thanks guys. Just to clarify things, I'm not foreign to C1. I've kept tabs on every release of C1 since it 2003. I just haven't found this "better color" thing that others claim. But that's with Canon files. My Nikon and Olympus OM-D buddies tell me it's definitely there. Also, the BIG workflow thing for me that has proven itself time and time again over the years are the history states available in LR. When I try to do onesey twosey images in ACR, the lack of History States makes it very difficult for me to work on those images. In fact, I'd say the lack of History States in other tools is what has kept me with LR. So for me this lack in C1 is a biggie.

That said, I'm run both LR and C1 side by side. Have been for years. I just use LR in production because I'm now much more adept with it. But at least I have a better idea for where difference may exits. In C1's favor, live view is very important to me. I run the CamRanger with my Canon gear and it's transformed the way I shoot in studio. SO I will need to thoroughly evaluate this.
 

Mgreer316

Member
OK, help me out with the tethering stuff. It looks like the DM33 has a firewire port. Whether it's 400 or 800 I don't know. But to tether, you'd need a Firewire connection for the computer. However, Firewire is no longer standard issue on the current Macs as far as I can tell and it's never been standard on PCs. If one is using a desktop you can get a Firewire card, but for laptops that goes out the window. So, are there FW adapters. From what I can tell it won't work with USB adaptors. Please fill in the gaps of any misinformation I may have. Because I'm trying to see how backs with older data transfer technology get pulled into the future.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
It's a FireWire 800 port. The only solution to use it with a Mac which lacks FireWire is a thunderbolt to FireWire adapter connected to a firewire cable conncted to a powered FireWire hub connected by FireWire to the digital back; that's a lot of connections and is not exactly the most elegant tethering solution.

I guess I'm confused. How did you come to have this back, is it a recent purchase or?

I only ask because if its a recent purchase you might still be inside a return window to maybe select a more recent Leaf back like the Credo or any Phase One back which would provide native USB tethering (in the case of the credo), tethering by thunderbolt adapter without the need for a powered hub (in the case of the Credo or any Phase back), and would tether to capture one without requiring the files to be decompressed to also open in LR. You could also work with a value added dealer to test and get to know said system well before you make a purchase so there aren't surprises like these which can really put a damper on the experience.

Or maybe tethering is just not a high priority for your needs?
 

weinlamm

Member
There must be a windows-version of Leaf Capture; it's an older version 11.2.9 - but it runs: see here. So you could try out. ;)

But I think there's nothing you really need, if you use C1. I normally prefer LR, because there I can use every camera-system I have, but I think most time for the perfect picture C1 is better.
 

Mgreer316

Member
Doug,

Tethering is not high on my priority list. I'm just investigating all the possibilitiesat this point. This whole medium format venture for me is a exploration of my photographic passion. Let me explain.

Mondern day 35mm gear is outstanding. In fact, I "think" it's become too outstanding for me. Meaning, everything is so easy. It's so easy to produce awesome imagery that I've been somewhat bored for the past 4 years or so. I've been investigating MFD options since then. My goal is to discover whether slowing down by being forced to take more time to think about and capture my images would inspire more passion in operating my business. Or would the relative lack of technology (as compared to 35mm DSLRs) be too frustrating for me? So for me this is one big experiment. If the passion and the joy returns, then I'll upgrade the back knowing that it will be used. If not, I'll sell everything I've purchased and continue shooting my do everything for you 35mm DSLRs.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Doug,

Tethering is not high on my priority list. I'm just investigating all the possibilitiesat this point. This whole medium format venture for me is a exploration of my photographic passion. Let me explain.

Mondern day 35mm gear is outstanding. In fact, I "think" it's become too outstanding for me. Meaning, everything is so easy. It's so easy to produce awesome imagery that I've been somewhat bored for the past 4 years or so. I've been investigating MFD options since then. My goal is to discover whether slowing down by being forced to take more time to think about and capture my images would inspire more passion in operating my business. Or would the relative lack of technology (as compared to 35mm DSLRs) be too frustrating for me? So for me this is one big experiment. If the passion and the joy returns, then I'll upgrade the back knowing that it will be used. If not, I'll sell everything I've purchased and continue shooting my do everything for you 35mm DSLRs.
That makes sense. In that case I might suggest buying/borrowing/renting a mid-range Mac with FW. A last-generation MacBookPro would be pretty affordable and provide you stable/fast native tethering (one cable directly from computer to back) with that back. I'd avoid the iMac or Mac Mini as we've found the power output of the firewire ports to be insufficient/inconsistent to power a Leaf Aptus back (i.e. DM33) which would require the powered hub and defeat the point. After the shoot you can then transfer the Capture One session to a more recent workstation for editing/adjustment.

Welcome to medium format digital :). It's not without some hassles and, as you say, there are less buttons and fewer convenience features than Nikon/Canon but the shooting experience and image quality is something else! I hope you'll post your findings as you go.
 

Rolo

Member
Doug,
Do you recommend Leica S2/S users to avoid Capture One Pro and use Lightroom, or do you have fixes for them to get around the missing profiles ?
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Lightroom does many things and is best at none of them.
C1 does best at processing images, and has started catalogues in a sort of lightroom way but has a way to go.
I have too many images for Lightroom or C1 to catalog, so I do it the old fashioned way.
The end result is the key.
I know of no other system that is as adept at tethered shooting better than C1 despite its occasional absent-mindedness.
If you don't mind sort of generic renderings with sharpening artifacts and wonky colors, then lightroom is your best bet.
BUT, render your jpegs in Photoshop.
-bob
 

adaml

Member
You can't beat LR for cataloging. LR5 also has so very nice new features where you can really prep your digital negative for Photoshop. Plus, being an Adobe app, all of the commands and keyboard commands are intuitive and the same for the past decade plus. C1 seems to be the most stable for tethering and has fantastic RAW processing, but far less intuitive and not in line with Adobe apps. The lack of industry standards with these apps is very frustrating.

A
 

Louis Novak

New member
I have found that C1 Pro renders and processes the files for the Leica S2/S better than LR does particularly in edge definition and sharpness.
 

Louis Novak

New member
I have found that C1 Pro renders and processes the files for the Leica S2/S better than LR does particularly in edge definition and sharpness.
 

markmullen

New member
I never got on with LR, tried C1 and found that once I'd got my head around how it works and how to get the best from it it pulls a better result out of raw files from all my Canon gear (5D3 / 1Ds2) and so the move to MFD wasn't as difficult as it might have been.

Also I've found C1 has the best tech support of any software company I've encountered, I've had a reply within an hour to online enquiries, even at 2am!
 

alajuela

Active member
Please Please Please People at C1 / P1 improve your layers, give us an opacity control per layer, not just on the mask, make the layers easier to rename, I find I just click until I get lucky. Make the brush a little more responsive, I use a Wacom tablet - I do find the ver 7 seems better than ver 6 - Keep going in that direction :)

I really like C1 - much better than ACR and I never really got into LR. Do like DXO - but hardly ever go there any more.

I don't think C1 can take the place of PS, no way, BUT surely is the best Raw Converter for my Phase, Canon, and Fuji files - that's a fact.

I am so happy I got into C1 - never would have if not gotten the Phase, so this was a great benefit.

Phil
 
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