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Hasselblad price increase

fotografz

Well-known member
Interesting, you seem to be the first person to not like that camera, well... I have owned neither so I respect your opinion.

No wonder I didn't know about that, no one talks about how great the tones and colors are in their images except you guys, everyone else is shooting charts. :watch:
Like, or not like, depends on what circles you move in ... in other words, applications.

The D3X seemed better suited when used in studio with strobes, and I believe at the time was positioned as a higher meg "studio" camera that could be also used elsewhere. Obviously the Nikon was a Pro level camera built to work in crappy weather and tough conditions ... however, I have now shot years and years worth of weddings, events, and portraits as well as travel with the A900 and it has never failed in any way. I think Sony over-built that camera and under-marketed it because it was their first FF camera aimed at advanced amateurs and some Pros like me.

It was the post processing drudgery of the D3X that I hated. The A900 cut that time in half. Other people may like a flat file that they can adjust anyway they want, and don't mind fiddling with skin tones ... I wasn't one of them when slogging through a thousand wedding shots every summer week :rolleyes:

So, YMMV depending on applications.

- Marc
 
Ok, so that makes sense now, first thing I do when I load up a photo is drop it into linear gamma, so mark me down as likes-to-toil-in-post-ographer.
 

jerome_m

Member
Remember the Nikon D3X and Sony A900? Both had the exact same 24.6mp sensor in them, but the Nikon ran circles around the Sony in terms of noise and dynamic range.
In fact, the A900 was even worse than the 5D2 in high-ISO performance, while the D3X was superior. So yes, same sensor, but not really.
Count one other A900 user to think otherwise. In my opinion, the A900 ran circles around the 5D2, not the other way around. But, the 5D2 real success was in video, which the A900 and D3x could not do.

And since I am at it: count me as a very happy Hasselblad user as well. The lenses are impressive, in particular the HC 50mm II which I used this week-end. Phocus is peculiar and slow, but the results are there. The HTS is unmatched by the competition. Generally speaking, the cameras are well designed ergonomically, with good balance and handling and a very nice viewfinder (much nicer than the Pentax, for example).
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Prices for used H gear will probably go up now, because of the fact no one will want to purchase new gear now. Aside from the venerable 500 series to the H2, Hasselblad lost me as a customer because of QC issues of the H3/ H4 models. Price increases will still seem like a bargain in comparison to Leica S2 users though. Broadcast quality digital video on an CF/SD card puts Nikon and Canon in its own category for most photographers - something Leica, Phase, and Hasselblad will never capture.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Count one other A900 user to think otherwise. In my opinion, the A900 ran circles around the 5D2, not the other way around. But, the 5D2 real success was in video, which the A900 and D3x could not do.

And since I am at it: count me as a very happy Hasselblad user as well. The lenses are impressive, in particular the HC 50mm II which I used this week-end. Phocus is peculiar and slow, but the results are there. The HTS is unmatched by the competition. Generally speaking, the cameras are well designed ergonomically, with good balance and handling and a very nice viewfinder (much nicer than the Pentax, for example).
Ya gotta have a good video card to run Phocus. When my old card started acting up, I upgraded to the best one my computer could take, and Phocus zoomed into action. :thumbs:

I wish other software had the color selector wheel like Phocus does ... best job of precisely isolating a specific color for adjustment I've ever used.

- Marc
 

ondebanks

Member
Nikon chose to produce a very flat file with a somewhat better high ISO performance that required considerable time in post to get anything decent from ... where Sony chose to concentrate on midtone response and truer color fidelity especially regarding skin tones right out of the camera.

- Marc
Jorgen Udvang said:
Interesting difference of opinion with regards to A900 vs. D3X. I like both, but mostly prefer the colours of the D3X.
You guys are talking about processing from JPEG, right? Or at least, you were ceding control of the RAW channel mixing to the settings preferred by Sony or Nikon?

Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.

Ray
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
You guys are talking about processing from JPEG, right? Or at least, you were ceding control of the RAW channel mixing to the settings preferred by Sony or Nikon?

Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.

Ray
Cameras with identical sensors can in fact produce different color.

See also Credo 60 vs IQ160 (different color science team) or hassy h3d-39 vs p45+ (Different everything besides sensor) or heck even p45 vs p45+ (Different ir filter, moderate hardware differences).

The sensor is just one part of the image quality chain.
 

AreBee

Member
Ray,

...if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900...
The following is an excerpt from comments on the D3x by Thom Hogan, available here in its entirety. I hope it sheds some light on the matter:

Thom Hogan said:
There's the inevitable "is it a Sony or Nikon sensor" question thing that arises from another new sensor announcement. But it especially rises this time as the primary difference between a D3 and a D3x is the sensor, and Sony has a similar-sized sensor in a camera that's US$5000 less expensive. I think there's a clear assumption by many that if it is a Sony sensor, then either the A900 is a bargain or the D3x is overpriced.

In actuality, the origin of the sensor is, like virtually all Nikon sensors, more complex. There's a story going around Japan, for instance, that one of Sony's newer fabs was partially leased to another company making CMOS sensors. There aren't many companies making CMOS sensors that need a state-of-the-art fab on lease, so the rumor has it that Nikon is the leasee. Given that the steppers in the plant probably came from Nikon Precision and things get messy real quick. There have also been rumors around for some time that Nikon was either specifying or applying their own "toppings" (that would be microlenses and Bayer filtration), even when they were using a Sony generated sensor. To say that there is a lot of entwinement between Sony Semiconductor and Nikon Imaging is understatement. Personally, I like the way Nikon puts it: "unique." The D3x sensor is unique to the D3x, though it may share some underpinnings with other sensors.

So it seems clear to me that the D3x sensor isn't the A900 sensor. There are some obvious differences that can be gleaned from the specs and without access to technical data sheets. At the same time, there are too many coincidences for the D3x sensor not to be based on the Sony sensel (the light sensing area of the photosite). It also seems clear that the low-pass filter is handled differently in the Nikon version. So all those thinking that the A900 and D3x should be the "same" for raw files are probably going to be proven wrong. And for JPEG files, the EXPEED and BIONZ image processing ASICs are certainly going to produce different results.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
You guys are talking about processing from JPEG, right? Or at least, you were ceding control of the RAW channel mixing to the settings preferred by Sony or Nikon?

Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.

Ray
RAW files.

Yes, you can fiddle with the files and get similar results. My point was "How much fiddling?" The camera's electronics do assign "as shot" data to the RAW files which you can alter anyway you want. Again, how much altering is required is the issue I had.

For what it is worth, LuLu did a comparison and concluded there was little to no difference in DR and no difference in noise up to and including ISO 800 where the Nikon then pulled ahead by about a stop. That was before Sony issued a firmware update that better addressed ISO performance. I now use ISO 2000 without much worry, and rarely need to even go that high.

IMO and experience, in-body stabilization was and remains a key advantage of the Sony DSLRs ... where every lens made by anyone is stabilized. Including all the fast ZA primes, and any adapted lens.

- Marc
 

jerome_m

Member
Because if the sensor really was the same in the D3X and A900, there could not be colour differences in the RAW file - irrespective of the electronics in the cameras.
The color filters array chromaticities are different between the D3x and A900 (they are also slightly different between the A900 and A800).
That alone is sufficient to explain differences in the RAW file.
 

jerome_m

Member
IMO and experience, in-body stabilization was and remains a key advantage of the Sony DSLRs ... where every lens made by anyone is stabilized. Including all the fast ZA primes, and any adapted lens.
Adapted lenses will only be stabilized if there is a chip with the correct focal length (whereas on Olympus, there is a menu to enter it if the lens is not recognized). But you are right on the other count: stabilized f/1.4 primes made the A900 quite efficient at night.

 

jerome_m

Member
IMO and experience, in-body stabilization was and remains a key advantage of the Sony DSLRs ... where every lens made by anyone is stabilized. Including all the fast ZA primes, and any adapted lens.
Adapted lenses will only be stabilized if there is a chip with the correct focal length (whereas on Olympus, there is a menu to enter it if the lens is not recognized). But you are right on the other count: stabilized f/1.4 primes made the A900 quite efficient at night.

 

tjv

Active member
...and here lies Hasselblad's problem. Every conversation about their products ends in talk about Nikon and Sony...
 

Kai.Ø

New member
...and here lies Hasselblad's problem. Every conversation about their products ends in talk about Nikon and Sony...
Well, the cliche that photography is all about compromises is still true, although the superb new technology in iso for especially 35mm is helping ending that cliche... -There is an incredible large gap going from the versitile Nikon, Sony, Canon and the 35mm's to hasselblad or phase if you have enough light/time. The end result from medim format is truly breathtaking.
I can only speak for myself. I shoot both, and can't really share my excitement when post processing a 35mm file as I do with my medium format files. Although the time spent retouching a medium format is greater due to the insane amount of (both positive and negative) details in a picture! The end result is miles away from 35mm. That's not really up for debate and leaves the conversation on what second camera to compliment a medium format (if needed).
In the end, the real question comes down to if you're a technician or a creative. If you can combine the two, perfect! Understand the limits and create within those bounderies.
Realised I just went on a bit. Sorry about the novel
-Kai
 
...and here lies Hasselblad's problem. Every conversation about their products ends in talk about Nikon and Sony...
Many years ago, if you said something about wanting to get into professional photography, you'd hear the word Hasselblad sometime within the next sentence or two. and the conversation would end there.

You dropped the ball, Hasselblad, you've dropped all of the balls; and a thousand midgets kicked them into the net.
 

ondebanks

Member
Cameras with identical sensors can in fact produce different color.
Not if they are truly identical; I regard everything inside the camera which interacts with a photon, en route to its photoelectric capture, as being part of the sensor makeup. You can't obtain different colour responses unless you alter the selectivity of photon wavelengths. This is why comments on the back-end electronics (and firmware, ISO, noise) are superfluous to the colour question.

See also Credo 60 vs IQ160 (different color science team)
Did this team change the filtration in front of the silicon?

or hassy h3d-39 vs p45+ (Different everything besides sensor)
Again, different filtration?

or heck even p45 vs p45+ (Different ir filter, moderate hardware differences).
Well, you say it yourself - different IR filter. So, not the same sensor setup in my view.

Ray
 

ondebanks

Member
Ray,



The following is an excerpt from comments on the D3x by Thom Hogan, available here in its entirety. I hope it sheds some light on the matter:

Thank you too, Rob, for sharing that excellent extract. I like the way it's phrased: "Nikon was either specifying or applying their own "toppings" (that would be microlenses and Bayer filtration)".

I'd like a chocolate sundae please, with Bayer sprinkles - but hold the microlenses!

Ray
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Adapted lenses will only be stabilized if there is a chip with the correct focal length (whereas on Olympus, there is a menu to enter it if the lens is not recognized). But you are right on the other count: stabilized f/1.4 primes made the A900 quite efficient at night.

Thank you for the correction. Yes, lenses like the Leica R series using a Leitax adapter with the proper chip included enables Sony's Super Steady Shot, as well as focus confirmation and metering in A mode.

Leica lens for Sony cameras

Interestingly, the previous disadvantages of SSS in the A900 due to OFV viewing, has been eliminated with the A99 because it uses a EVF.

Yes, SSS has been a God sent for those using lenses like the ZA24/2, ZA50/1.4, ZA85/1.4 and the incomparable ZA135/1.8 in "unavailable" light.

- Marc
 
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