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IQ260 vs IQ280
- Thread starter satybhat
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Kolor-Pikker
Member
If you ever intend to use tech cams with tilt/shift movements, particularly with wide angles, know that 80mp backs do not like lenses with a symmetrical design.
Schneider lenses have a symmetrical design, meaning light may exit at a steep angle (depending on focal length) and will cause lots of color shift, sometimes even without any movements. Rodenstock lenses are retro-focus and will work just fine.
The problem? Some Rodies cost almost twice as much as Schneider's and are also larger and heavier as well, even though performance-wise, they'll be quite similar (not much difference between excellent and amazing
). So you'll have to take lens budget into account... an 80mp system with a few lenses could set you back double for those extra 20mp.
Schneider lenses have a symmetrical design, meaning light may exit at a steep angle (depending on focal length) and will cause lots of color shift, sometimes even without any movements. Rodenstock lenses are retro-focus and will work just fine.
The problem? Some Rodies cost almost twice as much as Schneider's and are also larger and heavier as well, even though performance-wise, they'll be quite similar (not much difference between excellent and amazing
). So you'll have to take lens budget into account... an 80mp system with a few lenses could set you back double for those extra 20mp.
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alajuela
Active member
If you ever intend to use tech cams with tilt/shift movements, particularly with wide angles, know that 80mp backs do not like lenses with a symmetrical design.
Schneider lenses have a symmetrical design, meaning light may exit at a steep angle (depending on focal length) and will cause lots of color shift, sometimes even without any movements. Rodenstock lenses are retro-focus and will work just fine.
The problem? Some Rodies cost 3x or more than a similar lens from Schneider and are also larger and heavier as well, even though performance-wise, they'll be quite similar (not much difference between excellent and amazing
I have the the IQ 280 - upgraded from the IQ 180. I agree with Kolor Pikkers comments 100%. I did have the good fortune of having no investment in Schneider wides - which can be problematic until you hit 60mm (which btw the Schneider 60mm is a great lens)
I would add - one of the deciding factors for me was that I knew I was going to shoot outdoors allot with the DF (apart from a tech) and I wanted the sensor+ files at 20 meg. You get cleaner files say on a sensor+ iso 400 than a full file at iso 400. If you shoot handheld - you will find yourself going up in iso to get a higher shutter speed. You will also want to be f8 - f16 to get sharpest photos, unless there is a compelling reason for shallow depth of field.
FWIW - I am very happy with MF.
Phil
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
3x is a bit of hyperbole, at least with Cambo and Arca.The problem? Some Rodies cost 3x or more than a similar lens from Schneider and are also larger and heavier as well, even though performance-wise, they'll be quite similar (not much difference between excellent and amazing
Roddy 28HR vs Schneider 28XL: about 1.1x
Roddy 32HR vs Schneider 35XL: about 1.7x
Roddy 35HR vs Schneider 35XL: about the same
Roddy 40HR vs Schneider 43XL: about 1.2x
I'm rounding heavily as it varies depending on whether you're talking about Cambo or Arca and whether you're talking about a tilt-swing lens or not on the Cambo side; my only point is that while Roddy is almost always more expensive it is not 3x. That does not negate your overall point that one must consider all accessories and lenses when planning a back+tech camera, especially when some tech camera manufacturers have basic accessories that are 2-3x the cost of their competitors.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
If you haven't seen it there is a nice list of technical specifications here:
Tech Camera Overview
80mp, with good technique and a sharp lens, is really something special. However, in general my default position now is to recommend a 260 over an 180 for landscape/tech use until/unless someone has specific reasons why 80mp is critical/important to them.
Also bear in mind that a two shot stitch with 60mp is (accounting for overlap) in the ballpark of 100mp –*even more than the 80mp single capture. And it's much harder to find lenses that will handle a two-shot stitch of an 80mp sensor. The point being, for specific scenes that you identify as wanting absolute max resolution, you can have it even with "only" (lol) 60mp sensor. You can see the image circles and whether they allow two 60mp frames here: Tech Camera Image Visualizer
If at all possible however, go shoot with these things, words/specs/recommendations only go so far. I am the proud new owner of an X-Pro 1 after renting an X-E1 which I suspected I'd like based on the reviews and images – turns out I really need an optical viewfinder to be happy with a snapshot camera.
Tech Camera Overview
80mp, with good technique and a sharp lens, is really something special. However, in general my default position now is to recommend a 260 over an 180 for landscape/tech use until/unless someone has specific reasons why 80mp is critical/important to them.
Also bear in mind that a two shot stitch with 60mp is (accounting for overlap) in the ballpark of 100mp –*even more than the 80mp single capture. And it's much harder to find lenses that will handle a two-shot stitch of an 80mp sensor. The point being, for specific scenes that you identify as wanting absolute max resolution, you can have it even with "only" (lol) 60mp sensor. You can see the image circles and whether they allow two 60mp frames here: Tech Camera Image Visualizer
If at all possible however, go shoot with these things, words/specs/recommendations only go so far. I am the proud new owner of an X-Pro 1 after renting an X-E1 which I suspected I'd like based on the reviews and images – turns out I really need an optical viewfinder to be happy with a snapshot camera.
Kolor-Pikker
Member
Yes, it was hyperbole, shock factor is a better and easier tool to drive a point than giving straight numbers. I don't want to spend half the day looking up spreadsheets and prices. I edited my post for less tin foil content.
Lots of good info has been posted already.
Both are awesome backs.
I can make some generalizations based on all the info I have been able to gather but as always your final choice completely depends on how you intend to use the back (type of photography and working style) including the camera platform and lenses.
1- For studio work on an SLR like a DF+ body and for work outside the studio (including landscapes up to 30 sec exposures) and even some available light work in low light using also an SLR body and higher iso (sensor +) the IQ280 is the best back made.
2- For landscape/architecture use on a technical camera with rodenstock lenses and short exposures of 30 sec or faster the IQ280 is the best back.
3- For long exposures the best choice is the 260.
4- For using on a tech camera with lenses down to 23mm and also if you do a lot of movements on the camera (rise/fall, L/R shift) then the 260 is the best choice.
For all of the above then the 260 is the best all around back.
(I own a Arca Swiss RM3Di with Rodenstock lenses a PhaseOne IQ160 and a Hasselblad H1)
to return to the OP - one thing to note is that the shift to MFDB, and to tech camera lenses is a significant jump in quality over most anything else. A decent lens with a 40 mp back will be much better than you might imagine - the 60 mp is even better, etc.
One way to look at this, put crudely, is that 40 mp is like 4x5 film; 80 is like 8x10. The 60 gives flexibility to crop and still have plenty of resolution, but it is not so demanding on the gear as the 80.
One way to look at this, put crudely, is that 40 mp is like 4x5 film; 80 is like 8x10. The 60 gives flexibility to crop and still have plenty of resolution, but it is not so demanding on the gear as the 80.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
My preference would be the IQ260. The best general purpose back on the market. Plenty of horsepower with the least amount of limitations. I owned the IQ160 and loved it and shot the 260 for a week with some pretty long exposures and it was very clean.
FYI shooting in sensor plus at 15mpx is really more like shooting a 24mpx 35cam. Don't let the mpx deter you here. Sensor plus is really darn good
FYI shooting in sensor plus at 15mpx is really more like shooting a 24mpx 35cam. Don't let the mpx deter you here. Sensor plus is really darn good
RVB
Member
Guy,is the 80mp back any better at handling fabric's,I heard many people say that the ultra high res mitigates moire,I have a 50mp H back and I do see moire with fine fabric from time to time..
Rob
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Most likely it will be because of the smaller micron sensor 5.4 compared to the 260 at 6 micron. I have yet to run into though when I had my 160.
This one is kind of tough since there is no real hard evidence to go by. So if you had to give a edge than the 80 mpx sensors. When I did a moire test a couple years ago you can see it really bad with the P25 Plus at 9 micron, the P45plus at 7.4 I think it is was much better than the P65 it was hardly there at 6 micron. So moire seems to reduce as the microns get smaller.
The difference between the 6 micron and 5.4 would be a much smaller instance if you know what I mean. Lets say if I was a studio shooter and shot textiles all day long than i would be more concerned about it. I also learned that if you take it off critical focus and just stop down you can wipe out any moire. I do that with cockpit display instruments. You get into the nyquist levels it becomes a mess, so I back off a touch but still sharp.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
What may have not been brought up here is the 80 mpx sensor has a little bit more color range to it than the 60mpx and a touch more DR but ignore DR as its so good on both these backs, you would be splitting hairs. The color tone though is interesting but you got to have a really good eye to see it and in print it may not play a role. Obviously the 20 mpx is handy when your printing really big and it is the biggest dog in the shed no question. The really big downfall is a tech cam but if you have roadies under 60mm than its not a issue. If anything its the difference between having to buy a Roadie 32mm HR lens for the 280 and cheating with a SK 35mm for the 260 which is far cheaper but worthless on the 280. Also some things as mentioned but bottom line if you have the money to work around it the 280 is killer good.
I like the 260 and the 160 backs but hat was what I was using and grew to love. In fact I had the P40+, IQ 140 and IQ 160 all the same identical sensor and they all behaved the same. If you need that extra 20 mpx in the 180 and 280 than go for it as they are great backs and for some folks having the absolute best is there priority and nothing wrong with that thinking. You just have to buy your way around a few limitations is what it comes down too.
I like the 260 and the 160 backs but hat was what I was using and grew to love. In fact I had the P40+, IQ 140 and IQ 160 all the same identical sensor and they all behaved the same. If you need that extra 20 mpx in the 180 and 280 than go for it as they are great backs and for some folks having the absolute best is there priority and nothing wrong with that thinking. You just have to buy your way around a few limitations is what it comes down too.
RVB
Member
I think the smaller micron size really makes the difference,I have a D800E which has 4.17microns (I think) and I rarely ever see Moire,not even with the sharpest Nikon Lens I have (85mm 1.4G at f4),I am guessing smaller microns increases spatial resolution..
I am considering an IQ back in place of my H to use on a H4X body,and the iq260 seems like the best back around right now,just the moire issue is bringing the 80mp into consideration,
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
We should also point out here that moire can and will show up in a sensor with a AA filter as well. Reason you don't see it so much and pardon me here but most of the time canon, Nikon with some of there **** lenses could not get to the nyquist level anyway. LOL that was not nice of me but its true.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Also for you the H50 is Kodak and the 260 Dalsa you will see some differences in color tone and the Dalsa more neutral in color. I love the Dalsa sensors myself. So you will see some difference , not only that you get all the great functions of a IQ. So bottom line its a good trade for you. I know Capture Integration sells both Hassy and Phase and maybe you can work a trade with them even though your out of country. I don't know how the international stuff works but might be worth a call at least. I can help you if need be
RVB
Member
Very true,, similar to using the simple method of stopping down to diffraction zone to mitigate moire when using very sharp glass on medium format..
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
BTW I have seen Moire with the Zeiss 135 F2, but that maybe a exception since it maybe the best lens on a D800E. But your correct I have not seen much with that sensor. So my general rule stands the smaller the micron the less moire effect.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
wow !
superb replies... one of the reasons I love this forum... the amount of knowledge shared here is nothing short of amazing.
Doug / Guy / Jack, I really wish I could visit you guys at some stage, however at present my hand are pretty tied up in my business here in Melbourne. So ( at some premium ) I will have to buy locally, but my next iteration of "essential supplies" would be from you guys, so I'll surely be keeping in touch...
As regards my query, I'm still a bit undecided whether and how limiting the color cast issue would be on the IQ280, when (not if) I go the tech way. But what I do know is that I'll likely not need exposures > 2 mins at this stage.
Thanks again guys. btw, this is one helluva inferno for sure !!
superb replies... one of the reasons I love this forum... the amount of knowledge shared here is nothing short of amazing.
Doug / Guy / Jack, I really wish I could visit you guys at some stage, however at present my hand are pretty tied up in my business here in Melbourne. So ( at some premium ) I will have to buy locally, but my next iteration of "essential supplies" would be from you guys, so I'll surely be keeping in touch...
As regards my query, I'm still a bit undecided whether and how limiting the color cast issue would be on the IQ280, when (not if) I go the tech way. But what I do know is that I'll likely not need exposures > 2 mins at this stage.
Thanks again guys. btw, this is one helluva inferno for sure !!
Landscapelover
Senior Subscriber Member
Rob,
I traded my IQ180 with the IQ260 and have never looked back.
If you are interested in using the back with the digital SLR body like Phase One DF+/Hassy H4X you may go with the IQ180 (or 280) for higher MP but not DR. However, if you want to use it with the tech cam, it's no brainer, I will go with the IQ260. It is significantly more forgiving for the color cast than the IQ180. I did not use the Rodie 28mm I bought from Guy for a long time due to inability to shift with the IQ180 until I have the IQ260.
Did I mention about long exposure? It is the best in business!
Best
Pramote
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