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Tech Cam advice please !!

lance_schad

Workshop Member
Here are some additional links to show you a little bit more insight into the Cambo system.
Cambo is a great company to work with as a value added reseller because they make a quality product and are VERY RESPONSIVE if an issue or question arises.
As value added reseller of specialty medium format digital photography systems that is important to us since we need to provide the highest level of support for our clients.
Here is a link to a few Brian Hirshfeld posts:
Cambo Factory Tour - see a behind the scenes look at their production facility in the Netherlands .
Cambo RC400 Review - hands on review of an interior stitched shot and some outdoors shooting.
Cambo 2013 Tech Camera PDF Catalog - see a nicely produced catalog that clearly shows all their models , available lenses and accessories.

Of course here is a link to our complete Arca-Swiss/Cambo resource pages as well.


Lance
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I've been following this discussion for awhile and thought it time to add my 2¢.

First there's a hell of a lot of good advise here for anyone looking to get into a tech camera in many ways I wise I had this amount when I made my move in 2008. I did however have (and still do today) a great dealer support system.

There's a certain amount of bias from everyone no matter the make they use or if they sell the product. That bias is based on personal use and in the case of a dealer their knowledge base on their sales and service.

My bias is towards the Cambo WRS that I've been using since the fall of 2008. I first got my hands on the WRS in October 2008 and it remain today, 5-years later my all time favorite system to use. In some ways it's getting a little long in the tooth when compared to other systems being offered however it continues to work for me.

My personal feeling is you can't go wrong with any of the systems being offered whether it be Alpa, Arca, Cambo or some other manufacture. However. You need to base your decision of not what works for me, Guy, Graham, Jack or Stephen or anyone else but what works for you. It's hard to find a dealer that offers multiple platforms so you need to work up a list of which systems you want to try and if it means going to multiple dealers then so be it because in the end the travel time/money will save you thousands in the end by selecting the system that works best for you.

In the end the majority of the systems are nothing more than a dumb piece of metal that you attach a lens to the front and a back in the rear. A camera sandwich.

Here's more on my bias. Cambo designed the WRS to be used strictly for digital. The footprint is smaller than the much older WSD which can take either a film or digital back. Of course it cost more. The shift controls on the WRS are located on the rear of the body. I can be standing or sitting on the edge of a 1000" drop off and have shift the back up or down left or right without moving the camera or stepping in front of it. Once I have the focus, f/stop and shutter speed set I can then do the rest of my work from the rear (with the exception of cocking the shutter). I've read comments on how "precise" or lack a Cambo is. All I can say from well over 60 months of using mine in all types of conditions (snow, rain, blowing dust, freezing conditions) is that I've yet to encounter a problem. I've taken multiple images beginning with the upper row finishing with 3-row of 3-files each row for a total of 9 files and was able to nail each file on each row for a very solid repeatability. The addition of an IQ back as well as the new and very much improved groundglass has helped in fine detail focusing as well. Likewise switching to a tilt/swing lens panel has helped as well.

Saty posed 2- items that has caused him much confusion:

1. the high costs involved. There's simply no getting around this and welcome to the Infernal! In the end the body will be the lest of your cost as the digital back as well as the lenses to eat up your back account much more. Then again, the back can be used of other systems (I just recently returned to also using a Phase DF). Likewise in most cases the lenses can be used on multiple systems. Speaking from experience with Cambo, the lenses I use on the WRS can be used on any WDS and most other Cambo systems. I don't have any personal experience with Alpa or Arca but feel that "should" be the same with them as well.

2. equal fervor. That's the bias I spoke of before and can't be helped. I wouldn't be surprised that in a year from now you'll be exhibiting the same.

Just noticed I almost missed one last question of Saty - which pano head and why.

You don't need a panorama head when using a tech camera because the camera doesn't move. The back moves across the camera giving you a flat stitch (I routinely do 30x60 images). What you do need is a rock sold platform to mount your tech cam onto. And to open yet another can of worms - my bias on heads is the Arca Cube. I've been using a Cube almost as long as I have the WRS and I have never had a situation where it failed me. I can get an almost instant level just about all types of conditions. Conversations on heads should be left for another thread (actually there's been a lot already written about the Cube).

Best of luck and sorry this got so long winded.


Don
 

jlm

Workshop Member
I find true panos (swivelling the camera) to be quite useful. I use stitching to tweak composition, sometimes to increase the image area, but mainly to lose some foreground, esp with wide angle lenses. I generally level the camera both ways, so the stitching is a requirement for most tall images.

but if i am trying to get a really wide view, panos do it better.

RRS makes an excellent pano-clamp (not necessary with the cube, which has panning platforms above and below the leveling gear)

misc: you want the true pano axis to be plumb (platform to be level both ways) and then you want the camera above it to be level. most of the cameras have built in bubble levels, both ways, and redundantly mounted in several places. some time spent calibrating your rig for level is worth the time. my system has levels on the cube, levels on the camera (cambo) and the IQ back has a horizon/yaw feature; they don't always agree, so i typically rely on the cambo levels

a typical operation would be to set camera to portrait orientation, level it all, shift back downwards anywhere from 5-15mm based on composition, then shift Lside, center and Rside (or pano, if you want more width), overlapping by 1/3.
shifting is limited by the image circle of the lens, wide angle lenses will have some corner distortion, so as you shift toward the corners, you will get more of it

panos will have their own distortions (the edges of any frame will collect more of the corner distortion, but when you assemble the image, some of those "corners" won''t be in the corner any more.
 

dchew

Well-known member
...
a. need to try and see what suits ME best. I'm typically not a big "vista" person, but would like the ability to go wide angle. Alpa = no tilt under 80mm. interesting. So wide landscapes with Alpa are done without ANY tilt at all ? So wider than 80, would it be that Alpa users go hyperfocal for wide scapes ?
Actually that's old info. Alpa can shift down to the Rodi HR 32. Originally they only had a 34mm tilt adapter, so the comment above used to be true. Sometime in 2012 Alpa introduced a 17mm t/s adapter for the Rodi 32, 40, and 70mm; Schneider 60 and 75mm. Also the Rodi 50 can t/s with the 34mm adapter.

Arca Swiss still has an advantage if you want to tilt with any lens. With Alpa and Cambo you have to plan your lens purchases in order to tilt. Given the cost of lenses, most of us "plan" our lens purchases long in advance. :)

So it really does come down to your first point in "a". Check them all out. I went with an Alpa STC because I wanted a lightweight, simple design that could tilt, shift, rise and fall, from either the lens side or the sensor side. The STC fit those requirements perfectly. I take this thing with me to some pretty remote areas so simplicity and weight are important.

But my list is my list! After trying at least two of the three you will develop your own list of important features that you can then prioritize. From there your favorite system will emerge. That's pretty much the only way to do this. the good news is it is a hell of a lot of fun experimenting with all of these designs!

Dave
 

tjv

Active member
Have you shot using a technical camera on film before? If so, what format and type of camera, and how did you like the experience? Can you post some pictures of what you're hoping to do, or ones you've done taken that you think would have benefited from using a tech camera / movements?

Me, I'm a strange case scenario. I use a Techno (currently on film, scanning with an Imacon 949) for pretty much everything. I shoot fine art / documentary, portraits, landscapes, etc. I use it to slow me down and really, really force me to concentrate on every element of the picture. I like the challenge of working within the limitations of the tool, and usually find the "fight" is to my advantage. Obviously, I wouldn't shoot quick action sports with it, but it works for everything else I do.

When I was in the market for a tech cam, I looked seriously at Alpa as well. While I think it would have been a great choice too, ultimately I was looking for something that would replicate, as close as possible, the workflow I developed when shooting 4x5" on a Master Technika. That and it was going to cost me almost twice as much to get the equivalent experience with an STC as the lens mounts were insane, not to mention the accessories.

Ultimately, I think it's down to the individual and what he / she appreciates in terms of workflow and other options. Also, I live in the South Pacific so have no nearby support for any brand / make of tech camera here. Paula at Linhof and Studio was absolutely brilliant in terms of pre and post sale service and walked me though both the Alpa and Linhof options in a way that made me feel confident my "investment" was safe, either way.
 

satybhat

Member
Actually that's old info. Alpa can shift down to the Rodi HR 32. Originally they only had a 34mm tilt adapter, so the comment above used to be true. Sometime in 2012 Alpa introduced a 17mm t/s adapter for the Rodi 32, 40, and 70mm; Schneider 60 and 75mm. Also the Rodi 50 can t/s with the 34mm adapter.

Arca Swiss still has an advantage if you want to tilt with any lens. With Alpa and Cambo you have to plan your lens purchases in order to tilt. Given the cost of lenses, most of us "plan" our lens purchases long in advance. :)

So it really does come down to your first point in "a". Check them all out. I went with an Alpa STC because I wanted a lightweight, simple design that could tilt, shift, rise and fall, from either the lens side or the sensor side. The STC fit those requirements perfectly. I take this thing with me to some pretty remote areas so simplicity and weight are important.

But my list is my list! After trying at least two of the three you will develop your own list of important features that you can then prioritize. From there your favorite system will emerge. That's pretty much the only way to do this. the good news is it is a hell of a lot of fun experimenting with all of these designs!

Dave
THanks Dave.
Do you find the 18mm on either side shift a limitation for stitching ? I was kind of taken to the STC, but the Cambo WRS offers 45mm lateral shift as opposed to 45mm on Cambo. How do you overcome this ? (or do you even need to ? )

Fellas, how inconvenient is the STC as compared to the MAX when travelling ?

Some great info here.
THanks everyone.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
THanks Dave.
Do you find the 18mm on either side shift a limitation for stitching ? I was kind of taken to the STC, but the Cambo WRS offers 45mm lateral shift as opposed to 45mm on Cambo. How do you overcome this ? (or do you even need to ? )

Fellas, how inconvenient is the STC as compared to the MAX when travelling ?

Some great info here.
THanks everyone.
Not going to speak to much on the Alpa's since it was not something I owned . But the STC is the smaller of the 2 and is more the travel cam. Beautiful cam but it does only have rise or fall on it or if you flip the camera you can stitch, does not have both like a Arca RM3D or the Cambo WRS which have rise and fall and stitch movements. The Max with a stitch adapter I would say for sure bigger and as big as the Arca. The Cambo WRS is the smallest with both rise and fall and also stitching capability together. For me the Arca never interested me since I like the standard type of focusing, Alpa was my second choice but Cambo was easy to get from my dealer and it had everything I needed in a small package. Small played a role for me and having both rise and fall adjustments along with stitching movements together was my deciding factor. But you could hand me a Alpa of any flavor and i would shoot it.

One thing to point out here is not always will you be having lets say a rise movement and than decide to stitch at the same time. Interior shooters yes this maybe very common , doing landscapes and stitching sometimes can be problematic given weather and wind. Having said that I get away with maybe just a rise and than shoot panos. It saves on doing more than 1 LCC and its fast. Doing a interior assignment doing Panos is not something you want to do as the flat stitching is far more accurate with regards to lines in walls and keeping everything straight. In the field that is not such a big deal so Panos are more common. Nice thing about Panos and i did this in Acadia with a Cambo compact was maybe put a little rise on and do panos with one of the least functional of the cams.

Not only are you dealing with what maybe comfortable to shoot but knowing your needs going in helps a great deal. Panos you can do with any of the systems and any of the cams. Flat stitching is more accurate for sure but here again you have a 80 mpx sensor and that elevates trying to get a big enough file. Panos and Flat stitching are in this case more a image ratio look your after.

The thing is you need to know your work arounds and how to cheat. being a Pro that is sometimes my main job is how to get around obstacles to accomplish the end goal. Having said that the Keystone tool in Capture One is so good having rise and fall may not be such a big thing. Having shot the 23mm Rodie with no movements you have to cheat sometimes and tilt the camera up but its also a easy fix in C1 to go in and correct that.

A good thing to remember is deciding what kind of shooter you are and build around those needs . Landscape shooters have different needs than lets say Interior shooters. You could give me a Alpa STC with just rise and fall and the ability to putt on its side and i will figure a way to use it in everything I do. This sounds bad but knowing how to cheat is a good thing.

Im not very brand oriented. Ill shot just about anything as far as the cam , I am more a Phase back guy though as i think they are the best around given the files functions and such. The body does not mean much to me except for what it can do. Now that comes from a Pro with a far different mindset, a hobbyist would much prefer in many cases something very nice to look at and something that functions with precision and is more brand specific. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I play golf for my hobby I want Taylor Made clubs period. Different hobby same desire to own the best and feel good about it.
 

satybhat

Member
Some reply, that...
Guy, thanks for taking all this time to write, but it surely clears the cobwebs...
In perspective, being a physician, I am really not bothered about which brand of stethoscope I use, but with landscape photog as a hobby, I would want something of a tool to cherish. never thought about this issue in this way.
So I think I'm kinda favouring the STC for now.
The baseline kit thus far looks like this:
IQ260, Alpa STC, 40 and 70 Rodies, 17mm tilt adaptor and a tele, yet to be decided...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Seriously I have done 19 workshops now and all with hobbyist with lets be honest better gear than me but the underlying factor for them is photography is all about having fun and getting away from there real life. Believe me i totally get that thinking, i get on a golf course and Im on another planet. Photography is fun and it should be with something that makes you happy , feels good in your hand and more important free's you from gear thoughts and focus on enjoying your art. Whatever makes you do those things than that is what you should buy. Nothing worse in golf than looking down at a golf head and its ugly as ****, I guarantee you the shot will be too. LOL

Not a lot of difference. For you The Alpa STC or Cambo WRS would be my suggestion. They both are small and compact do what you need and for a hobby outside of Graham here should not be carrying a 40 pound backpack.

Let me add something because i do want to compliment him. He is crazy and carries a lot of gear but more importantly he truly is a dedicated hobbyist looking to enjoy himself and his life through photography. I can't respect him enough for that desire and heres the kicker he is damn freaking good at it too. Great shooter and love his work.
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
My 2 cents,

I picked up and played with all three.

The Arca just felt weird. I love their ball heads, use the cube 90% of the time on tripod, but found the tech camera unsettling. Some gear sticks to your hand (Leica S). Some gear jumps away from you like a nervous kitten. The Arca did that with me.

I expected to like the Alpa, given the reports of owners - I'm usually a sucker for insane engineering. I tried the SWA and STC. They both felt limited. I kept thinking "why can't it rise and shift? The Max is too big... " As Guy points out, the workarounds are easy, and I don't do interiors, so would have been happy using Alpa, but went with...

The Cambo WRS AE, which was the least glamorous, was as functional as the Arca, but seemed very easy to use with well thought out controls. One thing that makes the Cambo feel less precise - the zero points of adjustments on tilt and swing have a slight dead space. This is intentional, so you know you're really at zero. It feels loose, though. The rise/fall/shift controls are wonderful, and that's what I use all the time.

But really, the backs and lenses are the same for all three systems, so it just doesn't matter. Get what sticks to your hand!

Hmmm... maybe I should have gone for the Leica...

--Matt
 
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kdphotography

Well-known member
Some reply, that...
.... but with landscape photog as a hobby, I would want something of a tool to cherish. never thought about this issue in this way.
....
Saty, I think the importance emotional appeal is something a lot of photographers overlook. Regardless of capabilities, if it floats your boat, it gives your more enjoyment in the realm of the photographic experience.

I think a pretty Alpa or the Cambo WRS Anniversary Edition both with AS Cube and RRS tripod would fill the bill fine here.

:) ken
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Sorry Ken. I meant to say "But the Cambo WRS AE, least glamorous because of its ridiculous hand grips..." Who makes wooden handgrips with sharp edges? ;)

--Matt
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Hand grips on tech cameras are overrated anyway!! That said, I do like the rosewood grips on my Alpa. I'm still not sure what to make of those translucent Arca things though. :D

Ken, Matt and Guy nailed it about the need to enjoy using your gear and having a connection with it. That shouldn't be overlooked, especially when you consider how much of an investment this is and hopefully how long you'll be using it for.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Don't knock handgrips. :D They might not be for everyone however they do serve a useful purpose. I found the original grips on my WRS were just a tad too small at times especially when shooting in the winter with gloves. I replaced the grips with the newer wooden and find I have a much better purchase on the camera. The way I figure it is I don't want to take any chances when handling a camera that costs more than my truck and I don't want the chance of slippage. I also found the wooden grips better to handhold when shooting. If I were doing this all from scratch again one of the very first things I would look at would be how steady I thought the system was in my hands, both with and without gloves.

Once again just my 2¢ based on my own personal experience/preference.

Don
 
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Don Libby

Well-known member
Sorry Ken. I meant to say "But the Cambo WRS AE, least glamorous because of its ridiculous hand grips..." Who makes wooden handgrips with sharp edges? ;)

--Matt
Matt, not sure if my grips are any different that the ones offered on the AE however they're smooth with no sharp edges...
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Saty, I think the importance emotional appeal is something a lot of photographers overlook. Regardless of capabilities, if it floats your boat, it gives your more enjoyment in the realm of the photographic experience.

I think a pretty Alpa or the Cambo WRS Anniversary Edition both with AS Cube and RRS tripod would fill the bill fine here.

:) ken
There was a car commercial awhile back where the spokeswoman ask "does the car return the favor when you turn it on?" I use that same question with my WRS and the answer is always oh hell yes. You should be asking that question no matter what you use to shoot with. I think the better you are emotionally the better chance you have of achieving what you're attempting to capture. Sort of like Zen and the art of photography.....
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Actually grips are a huge safety factor outside of real use when shooting. Pulling stuff out of your bag , putting backs on, filters on and off and changing lenses like having a neck strap to hold onto grips are very useful this way. I work very fast and sometimes things just fly out of your hands. Hmmm just happened hot mirror filter flew out of my hand landed 4ft underwater. Took 5 of us a Gitzo a rubber band and a cut out gallon of milk container to get it and no one shot a video of that rescue. LOL

It was a classic oh **** and it came from yours truly. **** happens and having grips is not a bad thing when your holding 40 grand in your hands.
 
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