The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Speculation : Sony MF system

markymarkrb

New member
You know what would really be cool is if Fuji bought some of these sensors and entered the MF digital back world. I really hope Fuji has MF in their future although I doubt it is in their short term plans.
 

msadat

Member
i said this a while back and will repeat it again, remember amg after market for benz and then it became part of the MB line. think of hasselblad is amg for sony and the eventual buy out by sony.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Personally, Sony's strategy of focusing on high-end gear is a worrying sign for the industry. It is trying to simply survive on an affluent customer base. It is fine for smaller companies like Leica and Phase, but not for larger operations that need a broad customer base. Great for photographers in the short term, maybe not so good for the companies in the long.
 

MaxKißler

New member
Of all the crazy corporate cultures, Fuji has one that might actually do that.
Agreed. Somebody from Adox told me, Fuji is still producing film only because their CEO insists on it. The market for film is so insignificant by now that the costs of their large scale production are not being covered by the revenue. I hope they can preserve their film production as long as possible.
 

markymarkrb

New member
Fuji's current APS-C digital lineup has some great looking image files not to mention their "film simulation" modes are quite nice. If they could move into MF, I would not complain.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Fuji is probably the most likely candidate for a new digital MF camera.

- They still make MF cameras and have enormous experience within that field.
- They make the MF lenses for Hasselblad.
- They have made a digital back earlier, a Super CCD for the GX680, but only marketed in Japan.
- They make their own sensors.
- They are known to do unexpected things.
- If the X-T1 body is designed with some transfer of concept/knowledge from Kyocera (I doubt that they would make a camera that looks like a modern copy of the RTS III without at least consulting them), they might also have access to the technology and design behind the Contax 645.
- If they have access to the Contax lens mount, they also have access to a healthy customer base. Without customers, no camera.

With the success of the X-series, I doubt that 35mm is in the cards for them. It's not a big enough step. MF on the other hand, might be it. It's obviously speculation combined with a large portion of wishful thinking, but again: If anybody, they may be the most likely candidate. Much more so than Sony.

Edit: The challenge for anybody entering the MF industry would be lenses and lens mount. If someone like Sony design their own, it's a huge investment and in the current market, selling enough to get a sufficient return would be a tough challenge. If they are going to use an existing mount, they need a partner, a partner that is not afraid of diluting their own market shares. Leica pulled it off, but I suspect they were able to pick up many customers who were waiting for the R10. Sony have no such customer base to pull out of their hat.
 

msadat

Member
there are a lot more billionaires and milliners out there, all over the world and in china in particular with a fine appetite for cool expensive stuff



Personally, Sony's strategy of focusing on high-end gear is a worrying sign for the industry. It is trying to simply survive on an affluent customer base. It is fine for smaller companies like Leica and Phase, but not for larger operations that need a broad customer base. Great for photographers in the short term, maybe not so good for the companies in the long.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
there are a lot more billionaires and milliners out there, all over the world and in china in particular with a fine appetite for cool expensive stuff
Apparently wearing different hats...

Photography is a niche hobby. Only about 5% of US households earn more than $200,000. Not a very large customer base, especially if we leave it to billionaires and people who sell hats.

Auto-correct is a beech...

;)
 

BlinkingEye

New member
Sony might just have signed a "we won't do it!" agreement before the Medium-Format manufacturers agreed to buy this new sensor.
If I was Phase, Hasselblad, Pentax I'd not trust Sony an inch and insist on them not undercutting the whole market with their own camera or back.
As a business person, I like this thinking. Furthermore, we do not know Sony isn't doing R&D for one or more of the camera companies they supply sensors to. It is much more inexpensive to exploit Sony's engineering lab that develop your own in house staff and lab.
 

fmueller

Active member
OK, so it seems there is a consensus that an 33x44 fixed lens or better yet, interchangeable lens camera from Sony would be a game changer, even Lloyd Chambers dreams of a MF Sony sensor cam. Right up until the day it is introduced and everybody starts howling about it being a crop sensor when it should be a full frame MFDB. Heaven help us if they would dare put a focal plane shutter on it...:eek:

Some day you will be able to buy an IQ260 for $5000, but the year will probably be 2024 and I'll bet it will work about as well as the day it was new. :D
 

wryphotography

New member
I think the interesting part of this "war" is that 35mm full frame has now hit 36mp. The question is then how much more MPs can you cram into the space of a full frame sensor at the expense of affordable lenses? From what I have seen, glass is going to have to get quite a bit better to go beyond the 36MP on a postage stamp. This will deter a big part of their market. In other words, I think they have backed themselves a little into a corner with the 36MP sensors. I love my IQ180 but I can't see me enjoying the look of an image that is smaller than the 5.2 micron size. This is where the MF world has an inherent advantage. The IQ250 is not full frame but the sensor but the IQ3XX will be. MF can keep getting bigger and bigger without shrinking the pixels even up to the image circles of tech lenses. By the way, If someone can talk to the right person to get me a 617 digital sensor, let me know. I hate stitching shots at the beach.
so seconded!


I would not be surprised to see a canikon move up to medium format. The megapixel wars are over as far as 35mm and crop cameras are concerned. Diffraction does indeed start to creep in at higher pixel counts.
 

Paul Jameson

New member
I would personally love to see a a 645 Digital Rangefinder/Mirrorless, someday, with this new technology. Something like the Mamiya 7.
 

narikin

New member
I longed for this years ago, and was hopeful when Phase bought Mamiya that a ZD2 or 7III digital would appear, but it never did. Phase are not interested - they are supporting the bulk of their users and the Mamiya 645-SLR based options, with full retrofocal lenses, and big mirrors slapping about. That will be reflected in the upcoming new Phase camera, which will work with legacy lenses, of course. I cannot see the IQ250/CMOS live view changing any of this, sadly.

Another problem with the digital 7/MF rangefinder concept is the true wide-angle (Biogon type) lenses, which the original rangefinder cameras deploy, will result in a lot of off-axis color casts. Probably unacceptably so. It all needs to shift to Apo-Distagon type wides, (moderate retrofocal, highly corrected) which are bigger, bulkier and pricier. Rodenstock has already done this with their MF tech lenses, and they are superb, clearly superior to the Phase/Schneider MF wides.

The answer is indeed for Sony to break the logjam, make a fixed lens MF camera with a Zeiss ~50mm specially developed for this sensor, and correction programmed into the firmware. Hopefully with a leaf shutter, like the RX1R. Phase will not do that. I remain unconvinced that Sony would undercut its MF partners this way, but that said - I would certainly buy one!
 

douglasf13

New member
I think the interesting part of this "war" is that 35mm full frame has now hit 36mp. The question is then how much more MPs can you cram into the space of a full frame sensor at the expense of affordable lenses? From what I have seen, glass is going to have to get quite a bit better to go beyond the 36MP on a postage stamp. This will deter a big part of their market. In other words, I think they have backed themselves a little into a corner with the 36MP sensors. I love my IQ180 but I can't see me enjoying the look of an image that is smaller than the 5.2 micron size. This is where the MF world has an inherent advantage. The IQ250 is not full frame but the sensor but the IQ3XX will be. MF can keep getting bigger and bigger without shrinking the pixels even up to the image circles of tech lenses. By the way, If someone can talk to the right person to get me a 617 digital sensor, let me know. I hate stitching shots at the beach.
You can cram as many pixels on there as you want, and, while there may be a need for new lenses to take advantage of higher resolution sensors, you won't be at a disadvantage using older lenses. Plus, more megapixels is still an improvement when downsized, and moire is decreased.

I could easily see 24x36 chip megapixels go up to 100mp+, where diffraction at even large apertures would probably start limiting the practical advantages of going any higher.
 

douglasf13

New member
Fuji is probably the most likely candidate for a new digital MF camera.

- They make their own sensors.
The sensors in most of Fuji's X cameras are simply Sony sensors with Fuji's unique (I'm personally not a fan) X-trans CFA on top, and the X100 and XA-1 are regular Bayer on a Sony sensor. This isn't any different from Nikon, Ricoh, etc. who also use their own CFAs on top of Sony sensors. If Fuji went medium format, they might still use the Sony 33x44 sensor.
 

BANKER1

Member
Why can't Hasselblad design a mirror less camera, Fuji build it, and Sony provide the sensor? After all, Hasselblad has great working relationships with both companies.

Greg
 

Plateau Light

New member
Can't see it happening myself, for all the reasons mentioned already.

What I can see happening though is what torger suggested in another thread - Sony releasing a mirrorless fixed lens camera utilising their chip. Now that I reckon there is a huge potential for.
YES! That would be the ****! Imagine Sony with their new a12r medium format mirrorless system with an EFC that puts the Apla 12 FPS to bed at a fraction of the cost.
 

D&A

Well-known member
The last "new" player to enter medium format digital was Pentax and it took them seven years between when they announced they were going to release a digital 645 until they shipped one to a customer – and they had some pretty decent prior experience in medium format with a range of lenses already designed.
The main issues for Pentax during the lengthy time of development for the 645D was very limited financial resources and the exploding megapixel wars with cameras increasing in resolution by leaps and bounds every 6 months during various development stages of the 645D. This doesn't even include the accompanied developing tech that was also being added to each emerging new model of 35mm DSLR's at the time too which meant Pentax had to once again hold up production.

Pentax was on shaky financial footing long before the global economic downturn and when they thought their prototype was getting close to final production with both specs and choice of resolution and sensor size, the market place and specs for 35mm DLSR's was growing so fast, that the various incarnations and specs of the 645D appeared already obsolete just when it looked like they were almost ready to go with it. Hence the interminable delays.

Prior to the 645D Pentax was a co-developer of their first lalong with Contax's (Kyocera) 1st DSLR, the N1 (a company they have had a long time working relationship with) and poured in large sum of money to fund the project. Just when production was close to being ramped up, Pentax suddenly pulled out fearing the camera's specs have already been surpassed by Nikon & Canon in that segment of the market and they would loose their proverbial shirts by proceeding. Contax went ahead on their own and from what I know, Kyocera (Contax) took a financial beating and subsequently Contax was none more. Pentax learned from that experience and treaded very carefully with development and subsequent release of the 645D. They almost pulled it's production at the last minute, and that's why the inside compromise from what I understand was first release of the 645D in Japan and select markets and vitually no development of new lenses ...only the WR 55mm. Users had to relay on legacy lenses, most of which were produced on a very limited basis and of which had limited distribution. In other words Pentax was going to limit investment in case things went badly.

After years of barely hanging on, Pentax had agreed to a partial buyout/merger with Hoya and then the eventual spinoff/sale of the Pentax division to Ricoh.

Sony appears to rely on Zeiss for producing high quality optics for their cameras. I cannot see either company wanting to invest the necessary $$ or R&D for a new line of medium format lenses for a potential Sony MF digital, considering the market is too small. What I can envision is essentially a digital back with lens mount ala A7 which allows mounting various medium format lenses via adapters. Interesting times ahead.

Dave (D&A)
 
Last edited:

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
The sensors in most of Fuji's X cameras are simply Sony sensors with Fuji's unique (I'm personally not a fan) X-trans CFA on top, and the X100 and XA-1 are regular Bayer on a Sony sensor. This isn't any different from Nikon, Ricoh, etc. who also use their own CFAs on top of Sony sensors. If Fuji went medium format, they might still use the Sony 33x44 sensor.
So let me put it another way:
Fujifilm develop their own sensors and those sensors are unique to Fujifilm cameras. I doubt Fujifilm would launch an MF camera with an off-the-shelf Sony sensor. The CFA, in my view, is a part of the sensor. No CFA, no photo.
 
Top