PENTAX 645D II

[Paratom]

The 645D was never really a big success mainly thanks to the D800E. The 645D just does not have much better image quality overall than the Nikon (dynamic range is even a touch less on the Pentax). Specially for landscape situations. It is one of the reasons I sold it. For working with people it is awesome though because of the good AF, superb handling and different color and generally shallower dof (has a different look even at mid apertures) although I much prefer the look of the Dalsa sensor in the IQ backs.

The 645D II changes this being that it has a 50MP sensor and Live View. So it separates itself nicely from the D800E for Landscapes. Should give up nothing to the Nikon in regards to Dynamic Range, High Iso / Long Exposure performance (if anything it might be better) and functionality (thx to Live View!) and of course 50mp is a significant increase from 36mp. Not huge, but significant enough, at least for marketing purposes and it should do very well against the D800E in side by side tests.

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I find even from websize images the IQ from the Pentax 645 looks much better than that of the nikon. just my subjective impression.

 

[Ed Hurst]

As a user of the D800E and 645D (for their different strengths), I have to agree. 645D files are much better (for me). I only use the D800E when its relative strengths require it (better at high ISO, ability to shoot long exposures without dark frames). But, in market terms, you may be right. The perception that the D800E is close to medium format quality is enough to knock sales, I expect...

 

[douglasf13]

Me too Dave. I'm not liking the fact they are all relying on one chip maker. And as Will said above . Hello

The biggest problem in having one chip maker, which I personally see as a god thing, is how are the MFDB makers going to legitimize their prices if this Pentax is only $10K? Most coming from medium format film could never legitimize a switch to medium format digital, but Sony's involvement might start driving prices in the right direction.

For now, Phase and others will still have the larger CCD chips to draw people in, but I can't imagine spending so much more for the Phase or Hassy back with this new 33x44 CMOS sensor, assuming this new 645D does fall around $10K. The larger chips will always be more expensive, because it takes more than two stitched sensors to build them, but this 33x44 crop chip only takes two stitched sensors, just like a 35mm sensor, so the prices should reflect that.

 

[fotografz]

This seems to be an economy of scale. While MFD companies may be swapping market shares, the over-all share is pretty small.

In a Forbe's interview with Leica's head of Professional Photo, Stephan Schulz said they estimate the core MFD market at roughly 6,000 units per year world-wide, for all brands. He claimed Leica already had 20% of that (1,200 units, which outstripped Leica's ability to manufacture). Even if Phase has 50% of the market, that's 3,000 units spread out over a whole line of various different backs between Leaf and P1.

How Leica Camera Is Reinventing The Medium-Format Market On Its Own Terms - Forbes

The unknown since then is the continued impact of a persistently challenging photo economy, and the continued onslaught of high res 35mm. Hey, when you are running out of business capital, 36 meg FF for under 3K starts looking very good.

All these sensor makers have bigger businesses in industrial and smaller sensor manufacture … both CCD and CMOS. Reinventing the wheel for every new low volume MFD camera doesn't seem likely.

Whether Leica adopts this Sony sensor or turns to CMOSIS for a upsized version of the M240 base sensor remains to be seen. Either way, it's an "odd man out" sized sensor anyway.

Whether the CCD CMOS difference is a myth, is a myth itself. It needs to be proven, and so far the difference hasn't been disproved, especially in the areas of color that is so important to consistent MFD users. Maybe Phase with Capture One will finally do exactly that. We'll see.

Gotta hand it to Phase One … they beat everyone to the punch … again. I must say, if they had a camera to go with those backs it'd be all over but the "cry in and whining". Probably P1 and "boutique" Leica left standing.

Just my opinion.

- Marc

 

[Shashin]

I don't think Phase beat anybody. So far they, Hasselblad, and Pentax have announced a CMOS MFD camera. Even though Phase has the product out first, the other two are on the horizon. Unlike a good beer, I don't need an MFD camera now. I can wait. Besides, being first has its downsides if something goes wrong.

I also wonder if Phase is paying a premium to be first...

 

[D&A]

Pentax success for decades for better or worse has always been a value leader and the 645D was no exception. I believe that will continue with the new 645DII. In that regard I think Pentax in some respects is in a slightly different market than Phase, Hassy, Leica etc. Their recent lens introductions though at high price points I believe was in some instances in the wrong direction and not in true Pentax spirit of an entry way to MFD.

Lastly, like aspects of high end audio equipmenr, the ears or eyew as one would have it, sees or hear things that lot can't always be measured in numbers. My gut feelings so far has usually favored CCD output for color depth perception and the overall look of image output. Whatever it's due to has been my impression. That's not to say there aren't knock your socks off CMOS based cameras.

Dave (D&A)

 

[bensonga]

Pentax success for decades for better or worse has always been a value leader and the 645D was no exception. I believe that will continue with the new 645DII. In that regard I think Pentax in some respects is in a slightly different market than Phase, Hassy, Leica etc. Their recent lens introductions though at high price points I believe was in some instances in the wrong direction and not in true Pentax spirit of an entry way to MFD.
Dave (D&A)

I agree Dave. I think if Pentax had re-released many of their best FA lenses at sub-$2k prices when the original 645D was released, they would have been in a better position to lure new buyers, who didn't already have a stake in the P645 or P67 film systems. For many of those people, a more complete 645D system might have been an attractive alternative to a Nikon D800 or to other cameras at the low end of the MFD market.

It's my impression that those 645 FA lenses are still available new in Japan. If that's true, Pentax should have ramped up production to deliver these lenses with the 645D in global markets. They could have still released some of the higher end lenses, like the new 25mm and 90mm lenses for those who wanted the ultimate in IQ, while they continued to develop a line of weather resistant lenses specifically for the 645D.

Instead, many people were left scrounging for used P645 or P67 lenses wherever they could find them.

Oh well, that's water under the bridge now. One way or another however, they need more lenses for this system, if it's going to have a long term future....no matter what improvements they make to the camera. I hope the new wide angle zoom is something on par with the FA 45-85mm lens (or wider) and is in the $2k price range, not $4k+.

Gary

 

[fotografz]

I also wonder if Phase is paying a premium to be first...

"To be first" is the definition of "beating someone to the punch".

Hasselblad announced it's H4D/60 on the "Horizon". Turned out that "Horizon" was well over a year away.

- Marc

 

[douglasf13]

Pentax success for decades for better or worse has always been a value leader and the 645D was no exception. I believe that will continue with the new 645DII. In that regard I think Pentax in some respects is in a slightly different market than Phase, Hassy, Leica etc. Their recent lens introductions though at high price points I believe was in some instances in the wrong direction and not in true Pentax spirit of an entry way to MFD.

Lastly, like aspects of high end audio equipmenr, the ears or ears as one would have it, sees or hear things that lot can't always be measured in numbers. My gut feelings so far has usually favored CCD output for color depth perception and the overall look of image output. Whatever it's due to has been my impression. That's not to say there aren't knock your socks off CMOS based cameras.

Dave (D&A)

Sure, Pentax 645 has always been a value leader, but there's a bit of a difference between saving $1000 in buying the Pentax 645NII vs. the Mamiya 645AF in 2002 (with a film back and standard lens,) compared to the $25,000 one would save in buying the 645D II (assuming it'll be around $10K) vs. the IQ250...and that doesn't even include the price of the camera to put on the IQ250!

As I mentioned earlier, I could see someone justifying the price of the larger CCD backs from Phase and Hasselblad, but I can't imagine someone spending $25K more for the Phase or Hasselblad back, if the 645Dii is only $10K, and that includes the camera body. We'll see.

 

[f8orbust]

The larger chips will always be more expensive, because it takes more than two stitched sensors to build them, but this 33x44 crop chip only takes two stitched sensors, just like a 35mm sensor, so the prices should reflect that...

You would hope so:

 

[tsjanik]

I
..............It's my impression that those 645 FA lenses are still available new in Japan. ..................

Gary

And Asia, Europe, Canada etc. It's my understanding that it was Pentax USA who declined to bring in the old lenses; they didn't even want the 645D. John Carlson (marketing manager) said they would never sell more than 200.

 

[D&A]

Gary, spot on! I think if Pentax had made available most of their legacy lenses brand new, there would have been a larger number of individuals who would have considered the 645D. As it was Pentax did continue production of many of these lenses but only authorized Pentax entities in Japan and parts of Europe and Asia were privy to their availabilty. Pentax USA opted out except for allowing those authorized to sell the 645D in the US, to special order certain select legacy lenses and made only a few models available.

That's one of the reasons I went on a mission to test as big a variety (and multiple samples) of as many legacy lenses as possible and list my results here on Getdpi. With a modest investment and a fair amount of testing, it's possible to put together a reasonable size and priced kit of the these lenses but not everyone entering a system wants to do this or rely on used lenses.

I also agree, having a mix of more expensive weather resistant lenses along side some of their legacy lenses at a lower cost, would definitely make this a highly desirable and popular entry way for many interested in MFD.

I too spent a lot of time testing the D800 vs. the 645D in terms of file quality and overall appeal of the image and my findings parellel those of Ed and others. On paper the two cameras have similar resolution but that's where the differences end in my opinion. Each tool has their strengths and weaknesses for a variety of applications but in terms of shear image quality, it's easy for me to pick the one that appeals to me most often.

Dave (D&A)

 

[D&A]

Lol...Tom, I was busy typing my post above while you posted yours about Pentax USA and legacy lenses. Yes Pentax USA wanted little to do with the 645D and especially investing heavily in 645 legacy lenses. It was during economic difficult times both in general and for Pentax USA as a whole. The timing was bad. If the 645D had come out some years earlier or even at this current date, I believe we might have seen a more supportive Pentax USA.

Dave (D&A)

 

[tsjanik]

This seems to be an economy of scale. While MFD companies may be swapping market shares, the over-all share is pretty small.

...............- Marc

It may be small market, but Pentax's decision to go ahead with the 645DII is a positive sign. Phase and Hasselblad only do medium format, they have little choice but to continue with MF (excluding the Hasselblad dressing up of Sony bodies). Pentax could drop the 645 and focus on the K series, but they seem to think the MF market is there.

 

[Shashin]

"To be first" is the definition of "beating someone to the punch".

Hasselblad announced it's H4D/60 on the "Horizon". Turned out that "Horizon" was well over a year away.

- Marc

??? Hasselblad announced the H5D-50c would go on sale in March. That is a month away. A month difference is about as simultaneous a release can be with two different companies in the photo biz.

Beside, the H5D-50c is the World's first MFD with a CMOS! Don't believe me? Just read the Hasselblad press release! Who is beating who and what kind of feathers are they using?

 

[Shashin]

It may be small market, but Pentax's decision to go ahead with the 645DII is a positive sign. Phase and Hasselblad only do medium format, they have little choice but to continue with MF (excluding the Hasselblad dressing up of Sony bodies). Pentax could drop the 645 and focus on the K series, but they seem to think the MF market is there.

The sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is the price. I hope it also not the answer.

 

[tsjanik]

The sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is the price. I hope it also not the answer.

Or even half that. Based on what I've read, 10k is a target price for Pentax and frankly if the 645DII is much more, it will have a hard time competing with the 645D at 7k.

 

[Shashin]

When they release the 645DII, it will mean that stocks of the 645D are gone or almost gone. They may even drop the price of the 645D a little more to clear it out.

 

[yatlee]

Assuming the larger CMOS fab costs the same as the 35mm sensor fab.

The larger chips will always be more expensive, because it takes more than two stitched sensors to build them, but this 33x44 crop chip only takes two stitched sensors, just like a 35mm sensor, so the prices should reflect that.

 

[Shashin]

This Sony sensor thing reminds me of the good old days of film. Remember when you could buy a Mamiya, Hasselblad, and Pentax camera and stick the same roll of film in them?

And this is what I think is going to be really interesting to see how each manufacturer handles signal processing and color. It will fun to see where these cameras intersect and diverge.