PENTAX 645D II

[jduncan]

I have a great idea. We need four East coast members: one to buy the Hasselblad, one to buy the Phase, one to buy the Pentax, and I will buy the beer. We get together and take pictures and drink beer. I am sure we will have results!

Yeah, results like :
1. (4) drunk
2. (3) stolen cameras
3. (3) crying photographers
4 (1) One person with a grandchildren ready anecdote.



In the other hand it will be good to see a direct comparison.

Best regards,
J. Duncan

 

[D&A]

Like Marc, I too was under the impression that a the S2, 645D and the Hassy HD-40 all used a Kodak sensor.

Dave (D&A)

 

[tsjanik]

Like Marc, I too was under the impression that a the S2, 645D and the Hassy HD-40 all used a Kodak sensor.

Dave (D&A)

Correct Dave. See Rob's post. H uses the KAF 40000 too; not sure about 16 bit with the Leica.

The S2 uses the KAF-37500 and the Pentax uses the KAF-40000,the Leica is 16bit and the Pentax 14bit afaik..

Size is slightly different,45x30 vs 44x33..

Rob

 

[douglasf13]

14 bits is enough for even the newest backs, and the 16bit thing is just a marketing point. Here's a great post about it from Joaquim "theSuede," who works in the industry:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1234124/10#11758030

In fact, I'd recommend reading that entire 17 page thread, particularly Joaquim "theSuede's" posts. It's a lot of nice insight on the advantages of larger format.

 

[fotografz]

Like Marc, I too was under the impression that a the S2, 645D and the Hassy HD-40 all used a Kodak sensor.

Dave (D&A)

If you mean me … I said the H4D/40 and 645D use the same sensor. The S2 does not.

- Marc

 

[rummenigge2]

The 645D was never really a big success mainly thanks to the D800E.

really? maybe in the US, but there is a little more space left on the planet for photographers

 

[Charles Wood]

The 645D was never really a big success mainly thanks to the D800E. The 645D just does not have much better image quality overall than the Nikon (dynamic range is even a touch less on the Pentax). Specially for landscape situations.

The 645D was introduced two years before the D800e and judging from the fact that Ricoh is putting resources into continuing it (as well as other Pentax products), I would say it was quite a success, all things considered. By the time the D800e was introduced, the 645D, like most technology products, was on the downhill slope towards end-of-manufacturing life.

As for it not being a landscape camera, I would differ with you. I use it primarily for landscapes. I did use a D800e for over a month and had time to extensively compare files and in spite of differences regarding dynamic range and slightly better S/N performance, the IQ of the 800e simply didn't match my expectations vs the 645D. I'm not alone in that opinion.

 

[D&A]

If you mean me … I said the H4D/40 and 645D use the same sensor. The S2 does not.

- Marc[/QUOTE]

Marc, I certainly don't want to misquote you. I thought you also were under the impression that the S2 used a Kodak produced sensor although maybe not the same one as used in the 645D and Hassy HD-40. This is my impression too.

Dave (D&A)

 

[fotografz]

Oh, I see Dave. Yes, Kodak makes the sensor in the S and S2. I thought the discussion was about the same Kodak sensor in all three cameras. I believe Leica custom specified theirs, and as far as I know it isn't used in any other camera … whether it is an exclusive design, or could be used by another company, I do not know.

- Marc

 

[Shashin]

Yes, Leica had exclusivity for their sensor. When TrueSense was a division of Kodak you could get the codes/model numbers for their sensors and their pixel resolution. For every sensor except the Leica one, you could get a detailed spec sheet. The S2/S sensor was conspicuous by its absence. No other camera used it. The difference between that and the other sensors is simply unknown. But since they share the same technology, it is doubtful there was any practical difference. The difference is probably in the architecture in the different cameras rather the sensor per se.

 

[douglasf13]

Yes, Leica had exclusivity for their sensor. When TrueSense was a division of Kodak you could get the codes/model numbers for their sensors and their pixel resolution. For every sensor except the Leica one, you could get a detailed spec sheet. The S2/S sensor was conspicuous by its absence. No other camera used it. The difference between that and the other sensors is simply unknown. But since they share the same technology, it is doubtful there was any practical difference. The difference is probably in the architecture in the different cameras rather the sensor per se.

Agreed. I'd guess the difference is simply in size, but I have no idea.

 

[markymarkrb]

A few more interesting bits here:

RICOH IMAGING to Exhibit 4 Reference Products atCP⁺ 2014 Camera and Imaging Show

RICOH IMAGING COMPANY, LTD. is pleased to announce the exhibition of four reference products -- medium-format digital SLR camera, interchangeable lenses and camera accessories currently under development -- at CP+ 2014, one of the largest and most comprehensive camera and imaging shows in Asia. This annual event will be held from February 13 to 16 at the PACIFICO YOKOHAMA convention center in Japan.

Reference Products
1.Product type:Medium-format digital SLR camera (Product Image 1 , Product Image 2)

Model name (tentative): PENTAX 645D 2014
・Latest, super-high-resolution CMOS image sensor
・High-speed response in a variety of photographic applications
・Tilt-type LCD monitor
・Market launch scheduled for Spring 2014
2. Interchangeable lens for 645 mount digital camera (Product Image)

Model name (tentative): to be announced later
・Ultra-wide-angle zoom lens for use with the 645D
・Newly designed optics optimized for digital imaging characteristics
・Market launch: to be decided
3. Interchangeable lens for Q mount digital camera (Product Image)

Model name (tentative): TELEPHOTO MACRO
・Unifocal telephoto macro lens (high-performance-series model) for use with Q mount interchangeable-lens digital cameras
・Market launch: to be decided
4. Film duplication accessory (Product Image)

Model name (tentative)ENTAX Film Duplicator
・Produces digital duplicates of silver-halide-film images in combination with a digital SLR camera and a dedicated flash unit.
・Compatible with 35mm- and medium-format films
・Market launch: to be decided


Notes:
Model names, designs, specifications and market launch schedules of these products are all tentative and subject to change without notice. Prices of these products will be announced at a later date.

 

[laopai]

645D was a success until D800/D800e came to market.

I'm from California. I bought my 645d in the summer of 2010 from Japan directly with some help from a friend living there. I waited for 3 months after putting my credit card on it. Pentax said 500 units were built per month (and for Japan only) due to their limited production capacity then. I believe it was some 14 months later they brought 645D to the States and eventually rest of the world.

645d was not marketed for the traditional digital MF market occupied by P1 and Hass and Leica and others. Pentax made it very clear when announcing 645d that it was aimed at the market of "pixel cameras" like Nikon D3x which was sold at $9000. That's why 645d was priced at $10k.

645d enjoyed its success until Nikon responded with D800/D800e. A friend of mine visited Nikon's R&D base in Tokyo and the Japanese showed them the comparison between D800e and 645D. Of course Pentax had to slash the price short after.

I think with 645D2, Pentax can have some breathing room in the pixel area (50MP vs 36 MP now).

What I'm trying to say is, the focus on Pentax has never been the traditional MF market. That market was/is too small for them to consider (6000 units a year?). That's the reason they price 645d and 645d2 more close to DSLR then MF backs and cameras.

 

[laopai]

Another point is that Pentax CAN manufacture a medium format camera with a much lower cost compared to likes of P1, Hass, Leica, and other traditional MF palyers. Why? they have 135 DSLR product line that they can leverage. Especially they can leverage R&D and component sourcing and others. 645d share the same 14-bit ADC, image processor, AF module, LCD screen, memory, flash, etc with their DSLR products, say K5.

On the other hand, for P1 or Hass, they don't have this leverage. If they had priced their products like Pentax, they would have lost money.

 

[dougpeterson]

Another point is that Pentax CAN manufacture a medium format camera with a much lower cost compared to likes of P1, Hass, Leica, and other traditional MF palyers. Why? they have 135 DSLR product line that they can leverage. Especially they can leverage R&D and component sourcing and others. 645d share the same 14-bit ADC, image processor, AF module, LCD screen, memory, flash, etc with their DSLR products, say K5.

On the other hand, for P1 or Hass, they don't have this leverage. If they had priced their products like Pentax, they would have lost money.

I sincerely hope they aren't sharing the same image processor and memory with their K5 or similar. You can read about the enormous technological hurdle it was for P1 to make the most out of this very fast CMOS sensor in our article IQ250, CMOS fully realized.

Notably good live view requires sampling the full sensor and downrez from there. If you skip lines during sampling you get bad artifacts and false indications of sharpness on fine detail, and also do less well in low light.

If you want good live view to the computer (option for a large window and fast frame rate) you need a FAST implementation of USB3 and very fast internal bus speeds.

If you want live view on the LCD itself on the camera you likewise need a lot of horsepower.

If you want to be able to shoot continuously without a buffer and have extended bouts of consistently fast shooting with fast review of the most recent capture (read: nearly every fashion shoot I've ever tech'd in NYC) then you need exceptionally fast memory and bus speed and an image processor custom built to handle 50mp raw files.

Anyway, everything is rumor right now. Even when they announce official specs we can can't do the relevant comparisons and tests until they ship a product.

 

[laopai]

I sincerely hope they aren't sharing the same image processor and memory with their K5 or similar. You can read about the enormous technological hurdle it was for P1 to make the most out of this very fast CMOS sensor in our article IQ250, CMOS fully realized.

Notably good live view requires sampling the full sensor and downrez from there. If you skip lines during sampling you get bad artifacts and false indications of sharpness on fine detail, and also do less well in low light.

If you want good live view to the computer (option for a large window and fast frame rate) you need a FAST implementation of USB3 and very fast internal bus speeds.

If you want live view on the LCD itself on the camera you likewise need a lot of horsepower.

If you want to be able to shoot continuously without a buffer and have extended bouts of consistently fast shooting with fast review of the most recent capture (read: nearly every fashion shoot I've ever tech'd in NYC) then you need exceptionally fast memory and bus speed and an image processor custom built to handle 50mp raw files.

Anyway, everything is rumor right now. Even when they announce official specs we can can't do the relevant comparisons and tests until they ship a product.

Sorry I didn't make it clear. It was 645D that shares it components and R&D with K5, not the upcoming 645D2. that's why we 645D shooters always complain about the slow image processing speed and the shrunk AF points in the center...

But I guess 645D2 will share those with K3 or the upcoming Pentax full frame DSLR? without sharing, it's almost impossible to price 645D2 around $10K.

 

[Charles Wood]

A Japanese website quoted on Pentaxforums.com, indicates the 645D II will be capable of 3 fps. If true, along with live view, video capabilities, and AF improvements borrowed from the K3, would seem to indicate the 645D II will have some robust capabilities.

 

[Ed Hurst]

As a proud and very happy 645D user, I have to underline the importance of the above points about support. I live in Australia and was unfortunate enough to have had a problem with the body a little while ago that required repairs. Pentax (Ricoh) themselves have no relevant facility in Australia - just a relationship with a company called C R Kennedy who can do some things themselves - so anything complex or subtle or requiring spare parts means the camera has to be shipped to Japan and back. My camera disappeared into a black hole for over 3 months without a loaner or even any concrete idea of when I would get it back. Language barriers between C R Kennedy and Japan did not help either. Calls from me (to C R Kennedy) were either not returned at all or, when I eventually got impatient enough to escalate things, were simply met by assurances that it would come back as soon as possible. This is clearly not good enough for a pro spec camera. They need decent local support, the ability to resolve things themselves in country (for anything other than major major things), loaners and people here who truly understand what is going on. In short, professional standards of support.

The 645D is a brilliant piece of kit and very reliable. I have every confidence that the 645Dii will be excellent as well. But they really need proper, global (i.e. local) support if they are going to succeed in this segment.

 

[tsjanik]

................The 645D is a brilliant piece of kit and very reliable. I have every confidence that the 645Dii will be excellent as well. But they really need proper, global (i.e. local) support if they are going to succeed in this segment.

I very much agree. Years ago I sent a 67 300mm ED to the Pentax USA repair facility in Colorado and had an enlightening conversion with the repair technician about issues I was having with the 645 body. Since then, Pentax USA has closed their facility and outsourced repairs to an independent; when I call there I get a receptionist, who may be a very nice person, but can tell me nothing about my camera.

Tom

 

[Ed Hurst]

I would even accept the absence of someone knowledgeable to chat to. What I struggle with is "your 10k camera will vanish for months on end without any alternative cover and you will just have to wait and see what happens".