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Leaf AptusII-12 damaged...advice?

Egor

Member
Hi forum!
Sit back and enjoy a tale of mystery, intrigue, international espionage, SEX, medium format digital cameras, Israeli hostage negotiations, pole dancing, and murder!….

Actually I made up the parts about sex, pole dancing, and murder… just to try and maintain some interest ;)
But the rest is mostly true…mostly…

Sorry for the long story, but thought some may find it interesting and hoping for some advice.
I wanted to get your thoughts about what I should do about an issue I am dealing with regarding repair of my Leaf AptusII-12 back.

I am not going to name anyone or any company I am dealing with, because I do not want any hard feelings. I have always been served well by my sales rep, and Mamiya/Leaf, and the company I purchased my mfd gear from.
Unfortunately; some things have happened that are unusual and making me question the service I am getting. I am hoping for some feedback.

A few weeks ago, one of my studio assistants was reaching for a falling fill card on the set and accidentally hit the release button on the DF. She caught the back, so it didn’t hit the floor or anything major like that, but the IR filter did hit a rubber grip on the tripod head, causing it to break in front of the sensor. I called my sales rep and he said to package it well and send it in immediately.
I was informed that this may incur a repair cost of as much as $2500+ but we will see when they get it.
We have access to a real “clean-room” and inspected the sensor with a 10x loop, and saw no sensor damage at all.
One of my assistants boxed it up like the delicate instrument it is, wrapped entirely in anti-static and foam… and sent it in.

A few days later I received a report saying that the cost of repair would be about $1500 and all that was necessary was a new IR filter, and to authorize a credit card for this. We did.

A few days later, I received an email that said they wanted to send it to the factory in Israel for “better more extensive cleaning of the sensor. I was told they would handle all this internally (they would ship) and they were doing this because that they just did not have the appropriate “factory” facilities to do a thorough job. They said they did not expect further costs but would let me know if incurred.
I said OK, go ahead.

A week and half later, I received an email saying that “significant increase in repair costs needed to be approved….The report said that the entire CCD sensor now needed to be replaced, as well as its Firewire800 assembly…incurring a new revised repair cost of $15,085.00!!!
I was also told that “if I refused all service, I would now be charged $700… just for the diagnoses.
So in other words, they have my Leaf AptusII-12 back, want $15K to repair, or $700 to return it un-repaired (I assume).
I have repeatedly inquired for any further clarification of these “damages” to the sensor that render it “inoperable” but have not received any reply other than “The sensor has now been deemed “damaged and inoperable and must be replaced, as well as the FW assembly”

I feel like my mfd back is being held hostage, in Israel, for at least $700 I never agreed to, for damages I can not verify, or get any clarification of.

My business insurance doesn’t cover damage, only theft or total studio loss.

So I am now questioning the meaning of life, the universe, and everything…or at least what $15k may get me in used mfd replacement gear, any trade-in value from Leaf or PhaseOne?….or whether I should pay the $15k and get back an “as new” 80MP AptusII-12 back and get better insurance for next time?
Should I fight the $700 charge and just get the Aptus back and take my chances? What if it was damaged further after “they” received it? How would I know?

Any thoughts or advice is always appreciated. :)
Thanks in advance!
 
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kdphotography

Well-known member
Wow---that sounds like a horrible nightmare.

Something doesn't sound right---particularly the decision by the servicing party to now see some need to send the back in for more "extensive cleaning." Then to later be hit with $700 if you refused service seems to add more insult to injury. Do you know how much sex and pole dancing you can get with $700? Just outrageous. :D (had to work that back into the story line).

It sounds to me more like "theft by trick or device." Theft being covered by insurance. :angel:

I hope you find a better resolution---and hope your dealer will come clean and go to bat for you. ~$16K isn't chump change. Maybe a better explanation by the servicing center on how the CCD sensor was damaged and why the entire FW800 assembly now needs to be replaced would help. It doesn't sound right.

ken

p.s. You wouldn't know if the damage was incurred after the service center received it---you rely on honesty and integrity of the facility technicians. But that IR filter looks like it took a nastier hit than just a bump and hairline crack. *ouch*
 

Pemihan

Well-known member
Did you try to shoot with the back after the damage but before sending it in?

You could tell them to just replace the IR Filter and send the back back....
That will cost you the $1.500.

Peter
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Well, first, I would get them to drop the $700 of the evaluation if they promised no charge. You have to have the claim for free service in writing. Then you can get your back back. If the offer was verbal, then you will need to pay $700 as you have no proof. I would also get the service folks on your side so they can pressure the factory.

I am suspecting the sensor was damaged in the fall and the service people misinterpreted the damage with dust.
 
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Egor

Member
It was mostly just a series of hairline cracks and my assistant caught it upside down and decided to remove the IR filter (while still facing down) so as to not allow any glass particles to touch the sensor. So the breaks you see fell out after sensor was removed.

No I did not authorize shooting without the IR filter because I was concerned about ESD damage if powered up. Probably should have and it probably would have been fine (other than no IR filter) but will never know. I am afraid that if I pay the $1500 and replace the IR filter it will come back "non-working and I will be out over $2k
(probably will be $2200 because they will now want the addl $700)
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Give your assistant a raise and then deduct the cost of the repair from her paycheck? You could break even...
 

Egor

Member
Hi Shashin,
Great minds think alike! My acct says that repairs are deductible either way so it's a good idea but not necessary I think. No different than just lending the money to myself and depreciating...iow, hell with her, give myself the raise! ;)

I do not have any proof in writing that they wouldn't charge me for evaluation, but numerous emails that do not mention it and say specifically that there would probably be no addl charge (to send to Israel) but if so they would let me know.

I have figured out how to actually work in the sex, pole dancing and murder aspects of the story:

The assistant who broke the back is sexy, Scottish, and looks like Amy Pond from the Doctor Who series
She was essentially "dancing" around a 9ft Cambo UST stand to catch the camera, which is essentially a giant steel pole
If this ends up costing me $15k there is a good chance my wife will murder her
 

torger

Active member
What a nightmare :-(

It surprises me that a sensor replacement is $15K. I would expect the sensor cost $5K tops, if even that. Reason backs are expensive is due to low sales volumes, not ultra-expensive sensors or other expensive manufacturing. But maybe these "non-standard" 80 megapixel sensors really are super-expensive. Does sound to me like they're charging more than they need though, but sure they're free to do that. It's more expensive to buy a new one.
 

Egor

Member
I hear you, torger.
Are you familiar with the story of the nuclear engineer who puts a pencil "x" on a trouble spot at a nuke plant? They get his bill for $50,000.25 broken down as

#2 pencil___$0.25
knowing where to put pencil mark__$50,000
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I had a similar situation when I broke the IR glass on my Aptus 65. It went to MAC group who assessed the sensor as being damaged beyond economical repair as a few glass specs had impacted the sensor itself, resulting in a small number of spots on the sensor. Since these are probably less than the amount of dust on my main back on a bad day, plus they correct out with an LCC, I asked them to sell me the IR filter alone and let me fit it in a 'clean' environment and be done with it. However, they initially refused and wanted the $1200 or so I think it was to replace and mount the IR glass using the 4 screws on the back. This was just going to be for fitting - no re calibration etc etc. Having been a Kodak DCS645M user where the removable filter was a "feature" I wasn't really impressed by this.

In the end my dealer went to bat for me and convinced MAC to sell the replacement IR filter on its own (it comes in a snazzy green metallic finish box btw - I was surprised!). Net result was I got the filter for $850 and replaced it myself. The back is still rolling along although I got the originally broken glass filter frame cleaned up and a 720nm IR pass filter fitted so that now I can swap between regular IR cut or IR pass filters.

Btw, I had to force MAC Group to send me their test images that showed any damage to the sensor. They weren't at all happy about having to do that but my dealer really helped push them.

You have my sympathies at being held hostage by Leaf. As Will said, if you weren't aware of the extra $700 diagnosis fee then I'd strongly fight them over this. I would definitely get them to justify their damage assessment with evidence. I think it's too easy for a tech to decide unilaterally what constitutes damage worthy of $15k of work vs what you might deem economically and practically acceptable for images in the real world.
 
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Egor

Member
Hi Graham,
Your story gives me hope! Thank you!
Like I said, I like my dealer and have always had good service from him. Perhaps he is going to bat for me and I just don't know it yet. Lately he has been somewhat less communicative than usual, but I give him the benefit of the doubt because I suspect he may be busy with the new IQ250. Then again, its been 3 weeks now, he nevah calls, he nevah writes...oi vey :)

My main assistant has been saying the exact same thing, and thinks the damage may be totally acceptable to us. I keep asking for more info about the "actual" state of the back and keep getting the same response. Possibly a communication error with the Israeli techs at Leaf? In any case, I will definitely try to get more info from him starting Monday morning.

I have also found a P65 that I can get for sub-$10k and am considering it as a replacement. I always wanted a P65 anyway so that may work out quite nicely. (except for the being out $10k I wasn't expecting this year :(...still better than being out $15k ) and if the Leaf back returns and is useable...:)
 

torger

Active member
I've had a support issue with Leaf concerning a back that wouldn't work in the cold. I eventually got help and I'm very pleased with the end result but I took a lot of patience and nagging. It was very clear to me that they have an organizational problem, they can't really do support well. I was surprised that an organization that sells to professionals don't have better support, as I was thinking support was a prior concern for professionals. I've understood afterwards that what you need to get a good support is a super-dealer that takes the Leaf/Phase fight for you, if you have a busy undermanned dealer which don't have time to help you much (which I'd say is common here in Europe) you need to fight for yourself.

But if you are patient and push (or have a dealer that can push for you) then it can sort out in a good way. Of course if the sensor really is broken beyond use it's bad, but if it's still usable you should be able to get it back with just the IR filter replaced. First step is to get them to precisely specify what the error is, eg send you test images and show to you how broken (or not) it is. It's the least one could ask when they want to charge you with a $15K repair. I find it quite upsetting that they're so sloppy handling these kind of very costly repairs.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Your dealer generally is your friend in these matters. In my experience all of the dealers and techs I've dealt with have always been very helpful in pushing the manufacturers. Let's face it, keeping the customer happy in MF is WELL worth their while and so without exception all of my dealers (Optechs, CI and DT) have been very helpful even if they didn't sell me the gear the first time around (although they all sold me plenty of other stuff as replacement or later!!).

Have faith with your dealer first. They have an economic incentive to act for you, if they're smart.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Btw, in all Leaf matters I highly recommend contacting Yair Shahar here and also Ziv Argov at Leaf directly. A direct call for the inside track can really help.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I had a filter replaced and the whole camera checked to spec on a H3D-II/39. It was $550 + shipping to Sweden.

$1,500 seems deliberately high, $700 inspection/hostage fee seems ludicrous, and $15,000 for an unspecified, non-detailed sensor replacement is beyond outrageous. Frankly, even if it were documented in detail, $15,000 seems outrageous IMHO.

Someone at Leaf needs to wake up and smell the MFD forest burning. This kind of bad PR goes well beyond any cost of being considerate and supportive of the small cadre of MFD faithful. The internet is a powerful tool for or against you. They should know that.

That said, I think it borders on insanity to operate a studio without full gear insurance … just jack up the deductible to reduce the premiums, which keeps it more for "disaster" coverage like this one (IF it actually is a disaster).

- Marc
 

Egor

Member
Yes, Marc, I never really gave it much thought. I didn't know, until it was too late, that I could insure for breakage and the like. I had just the usual liability insurance and fire/theft/vandalism kindle thing. I self-insured for equipment failure all these years as my "photography empire" grew around me. :) (See attached)
I now have joined PPA and have extra ins. from their plans; and have breakage and location insurance for gear and employees from package choice. I just didn't know about it before and had lots of other things to think about without realizing I was amassing a fortune in gear, furniture, computers, and software all the time

Insanity? Guilty as charged! Total bonehead I was! What a rube, eh? Moron, thats me! OK I think we all get the idea...my bad ;)

In my defense....Almost all gear related to this business comes and goes obsolete so fast that I just didn't think insurance for such a thing was even out there....AND why didn't any of you geniuses out there tell me about this, or even discuss it from time to time!!!??? Or my insurance agent??? Or my dealer??? Yeah!! I blame everyone else!!Thats the ticket ;)

Graham, do you have those "inside track" phone numbers to Yair Shahir or Ziv Argov? That could really help me out here.
 
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torger

Active member
Kind of reminds me that I need to improve my own insurance. So far I've had the principle to not buy anything as expensive that I could not buy a new one if it would break. However my system has now grown so big and costly that if everything got destroyed at once in a fire or something I would certainly become a 135 shooter again :)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yes, Marc, I never really gave it much thought. I didn't know, until it was too late, that I could insure for breakage and the like. I had just the usual liability insurance and fire/theft/vandalism kindle thing. I self-insured for equipment failure all these years as my "photography empire" grew around me. :) (See attached)
I now have joined PPA and have extra ins. from their plans; and have breakage and location insurance for gear and employees from package choice. I just didn't know about it before and had lots of other things to think about without realizing I was amassing a fortune in gear, furniture, computers, and software all the time

Insanity? Guilty as charged! Total bonehead I was! What a rube, eh? Moron, thats me! OK I think we all get the idea...my bad ;)

In my defense....Almost all gear related to this business comes and goes obsolete so fast that I just didn't think insurance for such a thing was even out there....AND why didn't any of you geniuses out there tell me about this, or even discuss it from time to time!!!??? Or my insurance agent??? Or my dealer??? Yeah!! I blame everyone else!!Thats the ticket ;)

Graham, do you have those "inside track" phone numbers to Yair Shahir or Ziv Argov? That could really help me out here.
:ROTFL:

Yeah, it seems simple but actually isn't. Insurance agents usually don't have a clue unless they specialize in business policies. So not much help there. Most folks here are advanced amateurs so usually don't get all tangled up in business coverage.

Here's a hard earned tip:

I once had an "all inclusive" rider on my homeowners that covered my gear as line listed items. I asked my agent what all inclusive meant, and they replied anything listed for any possible occurrence of any kind.

Wrongo.

At the time I was just shooting a few weddings and my 503CW with a digital back went down a flight of marble steps (long story). Make the claim, adjuster calls, asked what I was doing, shooting a wedding for chump change, sorry no business use covered. So much for all inclusive.

Conversely, my buddy that owns a big studio goes to Jamaica on vacation, gets mugged for all his Nikon gear, makes claim on his business policy, denied because he wasn't shooting for pay.

I now have a policy that covers any item up to $6K without a line listing @ $500 deductible. Line listed items over $6K have no deductible, and are paid out via my assessed value. I just update that on their website when I sell something or get something new. Usually once a year is enough.

I contend that big insurance is how the Mafia went legit. Trace back the holding companies and we'd find Lucky Luciano, Inc. ;)

- Marc
 

stephengilbert

Active member
I once went to a Berkshire Hathaway shareholders meeting. After the ten minutes of official business, Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger answered questions from the audience. A woman asked Buffett if Berkshire carried "key man" insurance to pay if he died. Buffett replied, "We sell insurance; we don't buy insurance."
 

EH21

Member
Woah, sorry to hear about this. Did you by chance take pictures of the sensor when you were inspecting it prior to sending the back in for service? Do you know for sure if the back was working?

Reading your post it sure sounds like something happened to this after it left your hands. I mean you'd assume that when it first arrived at service they would have checked the sensor and back operations prior to giving you the first estimate of $1700.
 
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