A down to the line decision

[tashley]

Good evening everyone!

As some people might know I've not had a happy ride with my Phase One gear and after several rocky road episodes that I won't re-hash here, my dealer has sensibly offered me a refund (I asked for either that or a swap with cash adjustment for a Hassy HD39 plus 28mm + TS adaptor) on the basis that the hassy TS adaptor is still a horizon rather than an event.

Firstly let me make my needs clear: I mostly 'do' fine art work with a landscsape or 'architectural landscape' bent. Anyone with the time or inclination can see specific examples at

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p203936640

What I need is:

* The ability to do tilt AND shift
(hopefully for long night exposures sometimes too)
* Lots of large pixels for large prints with fantastic quality
* A setup which is as light as possible given the aim of the exercise. In other words hopefully avoiding carrying a digibody alongside a tech/field body.
* A setup which avoids, if at all possible, dark cloths, sliding adaptors, upside down composition using loupes on ground glass, central graduated ND filters etc.


It seems to me that Phase have been quoted here as agreeing that their new TS lens, on which most of my hopes were pinned, is kinda blurry at the edges. Now this is a huge shame because the images from my P45+ back are amazing. And it does incredible night shots. Really amazing. But it's the glass that's troublesome.

So should I wait for the Hassy TS, buy an HDII 39 or 50 now and then strap on the adaptor? Or should I stick with the Phase for its night ability and bear the (back) pain of adding a Silvestri Flexicam and putting up with the general grief of the extra body, weight and fiddle?

I want to make images printed to the largest exhibition sizes in fantastic detail with corrected verticals and enhanced DOF. I'll lug light-meters and tripods and so on uphill and dale if I have to, but what do people think of the potential difference in quality of let's say a 60" x 45" print taken on a hassy with their 28mm F4 and the T/S adaptor, versus the Sivlestri/Phase combo, in a sort of 'I'm willing to trade of a little bit of ultimate image quality at the furthest margins in exchange for a lot more convenience, but only a little for a lot' kind of a way...

Tim

ps my dealer suggested Horseman or Cambo with the Phase - but they're all tilt and no shift! And I do realise that few people have seen the Hassy TS results in action in the field rather than a studio...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Depends on how you look at life really , sell the Phase system at a loss. Or spend a little extra and get a Silvestri and actually there maybe other solutions to the T/S solution The Hassy 28mm and the T/S adapter are not exactly cheap either but nor is the Silvertri but anything over 30 seconds than Phase backs really shine there. Personally switching systems is not the answer IMHO and any 28mm Hassy or Mamiya lens will not be as good as a tech lens. Although I love my 28mm mamiya but this serves many purposes and i can shoot fast with it. The way I look at it instead of taking a 6 k loss on selling the current system given the times i would instead add to it because even the Hassy will not buy you a wide T/S either. Seriously switching systems is not buying you any extra quality Hassy and Phase are great systems and very much alike in many ways. Adding to either system if you have a special requirement actually makes more sense and also gives you better glass than both plus the ability to go very wide and long even with the Silvestri with T/S. The TS sounds very nice from Hassy no question and a useful accessory but still can't get wider than a 42mm or so

 

[carstenw]

I think you need to do three things before deciding:

1) Do you need more than 30s exposures? Then the Phase is the only back for you.

2) Decide how large you mean with printing large, how much stitching you are willing to do to get there, and choosing the minimum resolution you can, while still getting what you need.

2) Rent the various systems before committing.

Unless you are made of cash, I would say that making do with a 39MP over the massive outlay for the 50/60MP backs makes much more sense. Even the 33MP of the Sinar 75LV is probably enough for large prints, depending on how large you need.

 

[robsteve]

Doesn't Leica have a tilt/shift lens coming for the S2? It was either 30mm or 35mm. I know how much Tim likes Leica 35mm lenses

Is there still a Leica/Phase relationship. In other words, are there going to be any Leica lenses for Phase?

Robert

 

[woodyspedden]

Agree with Carsten.

Remember that the native size of the 39 Mpx files from either hassy or Phase are 22x32" Given my printer (Epson 7880) that just about does it. If you are into really large prints then you will have to stitch or uprez, your choice. Again though, the files come from the same Kodak sensor for either Hassy or Phase. The cooling approach from Phase allows the 1 hour limit as compared to the 60 second limit for the Hassy. Neither is really long enough for star trail work but the Phase certainly gets you closer.

If your dealer is willing to refund all of your money I personally would take and then follow Carsten's advice. Rent until you have been able to totally understand both systems. That way, when you finally buy again you will be a happy guy because you understand the benefits and trade-offs with each.

Just my thoughts

Woody

 

[Jack]

It's all been said:

1) If you need more than 60 second exposures, your current back is the highest resolution of the few options available.

2) If you don't need long exposures per #1 above, test out the Hassy AND the software before selling your Phase --- if you like it, you are done.

3) Only other viable option for *tilts* is your P45+ back and a view or tilt camera of some sort, but IMO *any* of them will require a sliding back for convenience -- no other convenient way to set compositions, movements and focus, then doing the back and forth with confirmation exposures...

3a) An ancillary option I'd explore for adjusting PoF is focus blending; I am thinking it may be superior to tilts since you can get more than one plane of subjects in focus at a time -- but then that's me and I am pretty darn happy with my Phase/Mamiya outfit.

4) All that said, coupled with your disastrous Mamiya history, I think you should go Hassy. I mean it can only be better unless you are cursed, and you seem so disillusioned with Mamiya now I doubt you can ever be happy with it.

5) On the upside, I suspect you will be able to sell your P45+ in Mamiya mount pretty easily.

Best,

 

[tashley]

Thanks To Everyone Guys!

What a bunch of really helpful and considered reactions that has been - and also thank you to those who wrote me privately with alternative suggestions.

When I originally chose the Phase over the Hassy I assumed that both would soon have functional, easy ways of achieving TS with existing bodies so my choice was made more on the basis of a philosophical preference for an open system, a desire to achieve longer exposures and a preference for the lighter smaller lenses of the Phamiya range with their 'no leaf shutter' design. I also preferred the higher shutter speeds of the Phamiya body and since I have never needed high sync speed flash (I don't do studio work) I wasn't giving up anything for that advantage.

Those preferences remain and I would like to make it really clear that I think the Phase One P45+ back is an incredible piece of kit. I have got over (either solved or ceased to care about!) all my other frustrations and teething issues with glass, chargers, flash and so on: it's just this danged TS issue that remains.

I could give up the things I like about the Phase system, take a Hassy now and accept the bigger lenses, slower shutter and more limited long exposure range on the basis that the TS adaptor will be good. Or I could keep the Phase setup, which by now I do at least know pretty well and for which I have purchased additional glass and accessories, and add something like the Silvestri to it.

Doing that would make surprisingly little difference to weight. If you add the weight of a Silvestri plus lens up and compare it to a Hassy TS adaptor plus, for e.g. 28mm F4 lens, you're probably lighter with the Silvestri gear! And from what people have said, that is the way to ensure ultimate (and most importantly known) quality. It will also cost in the same ballpark and will offer a far wider range of movements, probably more than I need. But it will also be much more of a hassle!

So it's a tough call. I'm going to have to think this one through in detail. In truth I have so far shot very few frames at over 1 minute exposure but those I have, I've loved.

Hmmmm. Hmmmm... Hmmmm............

 

[PeterA]

Personally I cut losing bets fast - that minimises the 'sunk cost ' argument...and therefore future pain. You sound like a tripod guy - so really the body shouldn't fuss you too much anyway. So if you are looking for a solid reason to get out of Phase/mamiya and into H series system with blad - it is an even money call..:thumbs:

thats how they suck people in and lock 'em in - BARRIERS TO EXIT.

PS - I own and shoot with both systems.

 

[robmac]

if you're dealer is offering a full refund and you're even thinking of getting out, what is the downside?

Prices are going nowhere but down, so even if you move back to Phase in x months you lose nothing. The Hassy T&S is still un-tested as yet so why move to Hassy NOW with the inherent possible loss if the TS doesn't deliver what you want? If you wait and then decide to bail from Phase, that refund offer may not still be on the table.

Personally, take the refund, thank your dealer, do some more testing and then buy back in to the game via your dealer at that point.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The other alternate plan is return the Mamiya stuff keep the P45 plus back and get a Silvestri with various lenses and only shoot the Tech camera. If this is ALL you do than like many interior shooters this is all they need or have.

 

[dwdmguy]

Not true, the Leaf backs will do 60 min.

Have you looked into the DL28?

I think you need to do three things before deciding:

1) Do you need more than 30s exposures? Then the Phase is the only back for you.

2) Decide how large you mean with printing large, how much stitching you are willing to do to get there, and choosing the minimum resolution you can, while still getting what you need.

2) Rent the various systems before committing.

Unless you are made of cash, I would say that making do with a 39MP over the massive outlay for the 50/60MP backs makes much more sense. Even the 33MP of the Sinar 75LV is probably enough for large prints, depending on how large you need.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

That is a Aptus-II-6 back with a Dalsa sensor. I don't know any Dalsa sensors that will do 60 minutes. If you have specs that say differently please let us know.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Not true, the Leaf backs will do 60 min.

Have you looked into the DL28?

The maximum long exposue for all Leaf Aptus backs is 32 seconds, not counting the new Aptus II 10 which states up to 60 seconds.

With the exception of the P65+, all of the Phase One Plus series (p20+, P21+, P25+, P30+, P45+) will expose for up to 1 hour as has been noted.

The P65+ does use a Dalsa sensor, developed with Phase One involvement. All the other Plus series are Kodak sensors.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Steve for confirming that.

 

[Clawery]

That is a Aptus-II-6 back with a Dalsa sensor. I don't know any Dalsa sensors that will do 60 minutes. If you have specs that say differently please let us know.

You are correct Guy. My understanding is that Dalsa chips can currently only do 60 second exposures. I found the DL28 spec sheet, but it doesn't mention anything about exposure times.


Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

 

[Steve Hendrix]

You are correct Guy. My understanding is that Dalsa chips can currently only do 60 second exposures. I found the DL28 spec sheet, but it doesn't mention anything about exposure times.


Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

The Leaf/Mamiya DL-28 maximum exposure is 32 seconds.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

 

[Clawery]

Tim,

I'm sure size and weight are a consideration for the camera you are looking for, but have you considered 6x9 cameras? Arca-Swiss, Cambo and several other manufacturers make some nice systems. Below is a brochure on the Ultima 23 system.



Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

 

[tashley]

Hi Chris,

All I can say to that is Wow, do you get a free truck with it??

Seriously, I spent some time at the dealer today and we talked through a variety of options. He's expecting a delivery of Hartbee/Phase TS lenses imminently and he's going to test for his own edification and I've agreed that if by some quirk he gets an ultra good one I'll take it. Otherwise he's going to arrange for me to try the Silvestri Flexcam with slidign back setup and if that's not suitable he'll switch me into Hassy, so I now have a great action plan that covers my bases pretty well. My preference is to stick with the Phase back IF I can find a way round the T/S issues that doesn't break my back or my bank, because of the long exposure issue and the fact that I've spent on accessories already.

Thanks again to everyone for their help! If anyone has any experience with the Silvestri it'd be very interesting to hear it. It looks and feels good.

Tim

 

[robmac]

Sounds like you've got yourself a great dealer - looking fwd to seeing how things work out.

 

[tashley]

Sounds like you've got yourself a great dealer - looking fwd to seeing how things work out.

Thanks Rob! I have to say that our relationship has come under some strain through no fault (I hope) on either side but today he was really very helpful and accommodating in helping come up with an action plan. The refund option was gratefully received but I do want to bust a gut to spend the cash with him!

Tim