Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I need a buying rest. Lol
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Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+
- Thread starter Paul Spinnler
- Start date
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
I don't care how ugly the cameras are, I'll use anything that delivers the goods. I personally wouldn't call any of them ugly, with the notable exception of the Lunar/Stellar which are ugly in the same way a beautiful woman on "Jersey Shore/pick your glamour housewife show" is ugly when their personality is exposed.
I think the new CMOS technology will make 135 users more likely to upgrade to a Pentax than before, as you won't need to sacrifice features as you had when going from CMOS to CCD. So in that aspect it could be a game changer.
In the short term it won't affect Hassy and Phase, price difference was there already with the CCD version.
As new photographers start with 135 systems it could be a change in the long term though. When MF digital was new the customers were MF film and large format film users. Today a photograper will already know how to make good results with 135 so making them wanting to upgrade to a $30+K MF system may be more difficult. Maybe Phase like Hassy will also try the luxury and status product path as an alternative in the future.
The Pentax is priced about the same as a flagship Canon, so anyone wanting a fatter DSLR may go for the Pentax.
In the short term it won't affect Hassy and Phase, price difference was there already with the CCD version.
As new photographers start with 135 systems it could be a change in the long term though. When MF digital was new the customers were MF film and large format film users. Today a photograper will already know how to make good results with 135 so making them wanting to upgrade to a $30+K MF system may be more difficult. Maybe Phase like Hassy will also try the luxury and status product path as an alternative in the future.
The Pentax is priced about the same as a flagship Canon, so anyone wanting a fatter DSLR may go for the Pentax.
as a pentax 645d user i can say that this is a great ads for phase one products, who show little knowledge of pentax product.Notably this is, as far as I can tell, just rumor, and not actual product information. But sure, let's go ahead and take it at face value...
First, I think it's great and a net positive for everyone that Pentax would do a nice crop-CMOS camera. MFD is a small sliver of the overall market and everyone in it (Phase, Leaf, Leica, Hassy, Pentax) benifit when more photographers hear about, try, or purchase medium format. The main path to growth for anyone in MFD is to increase the size of the pie by getting another 1% of the total market. As much as the narrative is more fun to enjoy when it's billed as P1 vs Hassy or P1/Leaf/Hassy vs Pentax the truth is the narrative is more [all MFD] vs "good enough".
Second, this is nearly post-for-post the same conversation that takes place every time a new camera is released in the lower-end pricing range. Go back and read the posts here or any other forum when the 1D, 1Ds2, Mamiya ZD, D3X, 5D2, D800, or Pentax 645D was announced/rumored/shipped. Basically some people say the sky is falling. Yet Phase One has done *better* and better (revenue/profit/product-quality) every year since the financial crises.
Notably to this thread this has included the years for which Pentax had offered a roughly $10k Pentax 645D at 40MP which was more or less the same sensor as in the H4D-40 and similar (at least in spec) to the p40+ and IQ140.
Someone said earlier the only difference would be flash sync and wireless tethering and tech camera compatibility. Here's a continuation of that list in no particular order:
Capture One compatibility (both for tethering and for raw processing where the algorithms have been fine tuned with great effort to get the most out of the camera), tethering experience and speed (not all "usb3" cameras will have the same actual tethering speed, a lot depends on the quality of the usb3 implementation and internal processing speed of the camera), color profiles, quality of the high ISO (specs are meaningless here, if/when hassy and Pentax ship a comparable camera we will have to compare the final resulting images at high ISO. And don't assume because one company has spec'd a higher ISO setting that they are getting better quality at high ISO). Availability in rental houses and rental studios as a main camera or backup to a personally owned camera, familiarity of digital techs and assistants in major and minor markets, quality and speed of professional support/repair in a particular market, quality and variety of made-for-digital lenses, look/feel of camera, burst speed/depth (very very few MF shooters need 3fps, but many want sustained shooting which has no buffer limit and want review of the last image to be immediate even when a long burst is shot), fast focus mask in the back (useful for fashion, but amazingly useful for sheimflug movements, double tap for 100% focus review on a specific area without having to first zoom then second scroll around, customizable highlight warning, variety of grid overlays including user movable guides, metadata entry for at-time-of-capture horizon/pitch for automatic batch correction of perspective and horizon, FireWire 800 in addition to usb3 (nice as a backup and for longer cable lengths including a manufacturer approved 33' cable), extremely high build quality with great history of durability and longevity (we have many h25 users still despite being 11 years old) compatibility with 3rd party cameras like the RZ, Contax, Fuji 680, etc with unique features like waiste level viewfinders and built in movements and dedicated fan bases.
O, and yes, flash sync speed, wireless review/control, and tech/view camera compatibility.
The point is the sky didn't fall before (quite the opposite actually) and isn't falling now. But we are, as quality-discerning photographers getting more and different options, and that's great news for everyone.
iso performance is already great in pentax 645d compared to gassy or phase one, pentax has already showed that they can squeeze the best out of sony sensor with the best performing apec camera.
second building. the 645d durability is simply amazing. for sure not behind the phase or gassy, who are not even weather sealed, but maybe i'm wrong
tethering is already possible with pentax 645, and with double card you can tether also wifi, and sure the new model will have the usability with flu card.
capture one is a good program but i don't see great difference with other raw converter. i find it less user-friendly and featured than other program.
lenses the pentax has a great line up of lens. new are coming, but you can mount a 600 f 5,6 to a medium format camera. in my opinion if they come out with some new ls lenses they will close the gap even for studio shooters.
the pentax 645d is a camera you can use like a d800 that produce outstanding images, surely not less than gassy or leica s. and cost less than a third.
sure there will be rich men, and some very high end photographer who could buy a camera not even considering the price.but as a photographer i see the community of photography more and more in trouble as far as assignment, revenue and less photographer ready to fork out 35000 for a camera.
in my opinion phase one is asking a price that is not justified by nothing. a
when the 645d2 will come out.
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Ugly camera? If that isn't an oxymoron, I don't know what is :ROTFL:
1- tethering...pentax already has it ,and with flu card it will be possible to use remote control---Notably this is, as far as I can tell, just rumor, and not actual product information. But sure, let's go ahead and take it at face value...
First, I think it's great and a net positive for everyone that Pentax would do a nice crop-CMOS camera. MFD is a small sliver of the overall market and everyone in it (Phase, Leaf, Leica, Hassy, Pentax) benifit when more photographers hear about, try, or purchase medium format. The main path to growth for anyone in MFD is to increase the size of the pie by getting another 1% of the total market. As much as the narrative is more fun to enjoy when it's billed as P1 vs Hassy or P1/Leaf/Hassy vs Pentax the truth is the narrative is more [all MFD] vs "good enough".
Second, this is nearly post-for-post the same conversation that takes place every time a new camera is released in the lower-end pricing range. Go back and read the posts here or any other forum when the 1D, 1Ds2, Mamiya ZD, D3X, 5D2, D800, or Pentax 645D was announced/rumored/shipped. Basically some people say the sky is falling. Yet Phase One has done *better* and better (revenue/profit/product-quality) every year since the financial crises.
Notably to this thread this has included the years for which Pentax had offered a roughly $10k Pentax 645D at 40MP which was more or less the same sensor as in the H4D-40 and similar (at least in spec) to the p40+ and IQ140.
Someone said earlier the only difference would be flash sync and wireless tethering and tech camera compatibility. Here's a continuation of that list in no particular order:
Capture One compatibility (both for tethering and for raw processing where the algorithms have been fine tuned with great effort to get the most out of the camera), tethering experience and speed (not all "usb3" cameras will have the same actual tethering speed, a lot depends on the quality of the usb3 implementation and internal processing speed of the camera), color profiles, quality of the high ISO (specs are meaningless here, if/when hassy and Pentax ship a comparable camera we will have to compare the final resulting images at high ISO. And don't assume because one company has spec'd a higher ISO setting that they are getting better quality at high ISO). Availability in rental houses and rental studios as a main camera or backup to a personally owned camera, familiarity of digital techs and assistants in major and minor markets, quality and speed of professional support/repair in a particular market, quality and variety of made-for-digital lenses, look/feel of camera, burst speed/depth (very very few MF shooters need 3fps, but many want sustained shooting which has no buffer limit and want review of the last image to be immediate even when a long burst is shot), fast focus mask in the back (useful for fashion, but amazingly useful for sheimflug movements, double tap for 100% focus review on a specific area without having to first zoom then second scroll around, customizable highlight warning, variety of grid overlays including user movable guides, metadata entry for at-time-of-capture horizon/pitch for automatic batch correction of perspective and horizon, FireWire 800 in addition to usb3 (nice as a backup and for longer cable lengths including a manufacturer approved 33' cable), extremely high build quality with great history of durability and longevity (we have many h25 users still despite being 11 years old) compatibility with 3rd party cameras like the RZ, Contax, Fuji 680, etc with unique features like waiste level viewfinders and built in movements and dedicated fan bases.
O, and yes, flash sync speed, wireless review/control, and tech/view camera compatibility
The point is the sky didn't fall before (quite the opposite actually) and isn't falling now. But we are, as quality-discerning photographers getting more and different options, and that's great news for everyone.
2-capture one....pentax work with all the community of raw converter, personally i find capture one one of the less user friendly converter and poorly integrated with other editing software...so?
3-building. you have never probably hold a pentax 645d. is built like a tank. and the viewfinder is amazing, better than leica s in my opinion.
4-color profile. i have and produce color profile with a color checker. maybe i understood wrongly.
pentax plus
5- complete weather sealed system for wide angle.
6-double slot card for back up or use wifi card to remote tethering and control
7-small and cheap battery
8 double tripod hole so you can create a l plate with small arca plate
9- built like a k5...probably the best and most intuitive camera ever built
10- af fine adjustment to check back and from focus ( don't know if phase one has this)
11- first stabilize lens in format. a zoom like 35 95 is coming too.
12- liveview mode usable to check focus, and probably video mode implemented ( from what i have seen the live view of phase one is a gimmick)
13-plenty of external control
i think phase one is great for studio and retch camera, pentax is more an all around camera, who open possibility for wedding photographer and reportage photog also.
and i think that 35000 for a camera when another manufacturer can produce and sell it for 10000 will shake a bit the market.
Landscapelover
Senior Subscriber Member
If Pentax 645 II comes up with Leica S and Hasselblad H adapters, it will be a game changer!
I don't think any of the MF cameras are ugly, including this Pentax 645 II.
At least they are more beautiful than the ugliest, Mamiya RZ, my most favorite camera
My point is I don't think the look of camera is matter. "Ugly women always get married".
Pramote
I don't think any of the MF cameras are ugly, including this Pentax 645 II.
At least they are more beautiful than the ugliest, Mamiya RZ, my most favorite camera
My point is I don't think the look of camera is matter. "Ugly women always get married".
Pramote
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Ben Rubinstein
Active member
You people have a point on the price of the excretable DF body. Going through DF shutters like water we're on the point of having to buy a second DF just to have while we send the other for repair. We were playing with the idea of switching to the D800, with custom ICC profiles the colour was practically the same but the 2:3 sensor works against us. We end up losing too many megapixels at the sides. This however would give us the bigger chip at a correct ratio, more megapixels and we could buy two for the price we would sell the present setup and what we would have spent on the new DF body. I think I would be amiss not to be looking at it.
How is tethering done with the 645D? Does anyone know what the shutter rating is on it?
How is tethering done with the 645D? Does anyone know what the shutter rating is on it?
johnnygoesdigital
New member
The attitudes here border on passive/aggressive comments when talking about another's camera choice. I've had the Leica S, Phase DF, and several H models. The Pentax at least has a price point that's more realistic and weather sealed. Weather sealing is not rocket science and that one feature opens up so many more photographic opportunities than any other camera period! The S may have sealing, but using your fingertips to hold that camera doesn't instill confidence. The point is, whenever a new camera comes along that might actually have features and resolution that rivals most in certain areas the usual detractors wave their arms yelling look over here, look over here! Price point is the primary reason so many defend their camera purchases because they must have the best...no matter how obsolete!
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Jon,
Yes, thanks, I have held a Pentax 645D. Though it's a bit insulting that you'd think I have not.
We could go back and forth on the details forever. For instance the live view on the *shipping* IQ250 is excellent, contrary to what "you've heard" (where did you hear this??). See our IQ250 Live View video as one example).
But my point was not that the Pentax 645D II isn't going to be a good camera. I assume it will be a very nice camera, like it's predecessor. I'd also be happy to agree there are some features the current Pentax 645D has over comparable Phase/Leaf/Hassy offerings, and the same will be likely true of the Pentax 645D II.
In other words I wasn't attacking your camera.
My point was only that the sky is not falling for Phase/Leaf/Hassy and that, as counter intuitive as it is, having a lower-end product enter a market segment often helps the dominant players. Phase/Leaf sold more The Mamiya ZD didn't kill Phase One's P25 sales; if anything, they improved them. Leica will still sell lots of M bodies even though you can buy a Sony FF rangefinder with arguably "more features" for less money. Phase One IQ140 and Credo 40 sales weren't crushed by the Pentax 645D (mark 1); to the contrary, sales were up over that period.
The theory, and in the last several years my practical experience has been, the more offerings they are for higher-end cameras the more people start researching all their options (they may hear about a ZD, or a Pentax, but they're going to spend at least a few hours checking out the relevant competition before they commit) and the more people start researching their options the more total people will end up finding a Phase One or Leaf is the best choice for them (some/many will also end up reaffirming their original plan to go with the ZD/Pentax/etc).
And re: "i think Phase One is great for studio" - working for the largest dealer in the US does provide some insight here: about 50% of our customers at this point spend little or no time in a studio.
Yes, thanks, I have held a Pentax 645D. Though it's a bit insulting that you'd think I have not.
We could go back and forth on the details forever. For instance the live view on the *shipping* IQ250 is excellent, contrary to what "you've heard" (where did you hear this??). See our IQ250 Live View video as one example).
But my point was not that the Pentax 645D II isn't going to be a good camera. I assume it will be a very nice camera, like it's predecessor. I'd also be happy to agree there are some features the current Pentax 645D has over comparable Phase/Leaf/Hassy offerings, and the same will be likely true of the Pentax 645D II.
In other words I wasn't attacking your camera.
My point was only that the sky is not falling for Phase/Leaf/Hassy and that, as counter intuitive as it is, having a lower-end product enter a market segment often helps the dominant players. Phase/Leaf sold more The Mamiya ZD didn't kill Phase One's P25 sales; if anything, they improved them. Leica will still sell lots of M bodies even though you can buy a Sony FF rangefinder with arguably "more features" for less money. Phase One IQ140 and Credo 40 sales weren't crushed by the Pentax 645D (mark 1); to the contrary, sales were up over that period.
The theory, and in the last several years my practical experience has been, the more offerings they are for higher-end cameras the more people start researching all their options (they may hear about a ZD, or a Pentax, but they're going to spend at least a few hours checking out the relevant competition before they commit) and the more people start researching their options the more total people will end up finding a Phase One or Leaf is the best choice for them (some/many will also end up reaffirming their original plan to go with the ZD/Pentax/etc).
And re: "i think Phase One is great for studio" - working for the largest dealer in the US does provide some insight here: about 50% of our customers at this point spend little or no time in a studio.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Notably with your digital back you can slap it on the back of a cultural heritage camera designed specifically for the art reproduction work you're doing and your shutter issues would vanish.
Art Repro and cultural heritage is tough on ANY SLR shutter. Hell even with our camera's million-release warranty our cultural heritage clients frequently exceed the warranty and have to replace a shutter at (we've been averaging) around 1.5 million releases.
With an all-in-one design the Pentax would not be able to work on such a camera.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
The vast majority of DF+ are sold as part of a kit, where the body and Schneider 80LS or Phase One 80D are bundled with a back at a much lower effective price. The DF+ and 80D are, for instance, included in the Credo 40 bundle promo.
kdphotography
Well-known member
No matter how well she performs in bed---she's still ugly. Well, maybe with the lights off...
We're just being tongue in cheek fun here and it doesn't matter except where the Pentax performs (paper bag handy or lights out). I'm serious here---I'd like to see how the Pentax 645D II would be as a converted IR camera. That's IR with live view. That's huge. Graham? You got room in that camera cart land rover ...
johnnygoesdigital
New member
Doug,
Your objectivity is waning as are the continuous sales pitches. The DF has had notable MLU issues, and in some cases shutters that destroy themselves inside the camera. Let's be honest about photo gear because we will all benefit if we can share our experiences without reprisals wrapped in sunshine and lollipops and the always cute emoticons! The price of MFD does not mean you will always get the best when most firmly believe they should...and why not?
As for new camera releases from other companies increasing your sales is perplexing unless your just comparing studio / tech only photographers with limited end use, but these specialized photographers already know those limitations. Oddly, you left out the D800 when comparing models. For an all around MFD camera with competing resolution that will suffice for many shooters without the insult of entry prices, you should be pleased then that Pentax is releasing the 645DII, as your profit margins will surely be realized.
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From a distance, its interesting to watch the price sniping going on here. If the Pentax were 70-80% of the cost of more expensive cameras, heck, the conversations might even be more fierce. But since we're dealing with multiples of difference (2X or more), something else might be occurring. With such variation, its likely price is not the primary factor as people make these choices. It was probably always this way in photog, but seems even more evident in MFD.
I don't see the 645DII as a game changer anymore than the 645D was. The 645D uses the same sensor as the Hasselblad 40MP and an equivalent Kodak sensor to that used in the Leica and those companies don’t appear to have been impacted to any large extent. Sure it may have caused some pricing pressure, but not as much as the Nikon 800 (IMHO). I love my 645D, but lenses, system and support continue to be an issue for Pentax, most especially in the US. I'm not particularly tempted by the 645DII at this point, other than higher ISO it doesn't offer much that is important to me.
As to appearance, none of the MF cameras is something I would display as art (well, maybe a tech cam). I really liked the appearance of the Pentax 645 film cameras and found the softer, wider shape of the 645D a bit of a disappointment – something like a 645N that had been eating too many doughnuts.
I like the appearance of the Sony A7 - no curves, angular - very crystalline.
Tom
As to appearance, none of the MF cameras is something I would display as art (well, maybe a tech cam). I really liked the appearance of the Pentax 645 film cameras and found the softer, wider shape of the 645D a bit of a disappointment – something like a 645N that had been eating too many doughnuts.
I like the appearance of the Sony A7 - no curves, angular - very crystalline.
Tom
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
It was going to be one of my first options Doug. Problem is that Live View with our Aptus II is just not good enough for consistent accurate (close to) macro distance focusing. From our testing AF gets sharper results pretty much every time. Mainly due to the lag with the LV. What is the price of your camera? Close focus distance? Can it be triggered electronically? I'm willing to change my mind. We blew through our DF+ new shutter (they put the DF+ shutter rated for 100K in our DF last time) in 7 months, i.e. just a month after the warranty was up. If we go for a manual focus solution it has to be easy to use across multiple workers and thousands of pages per day. I'm worried about consistency of focus between photographers and books in a fast paced environment.
I recently got an email for a promo on brand new Credo 40 kits with DF and lens for like 13K. So we can't be that far off the price. Granted it is a different back.
The Phase/Hassy prices will have to drop in the mid-long term. There is no way you sell a cropped 50MP back for 35K when there are competing 40MP backs in the 10-15K range from below, and 60-80MP used backs in the 15-30K range from above.
The Phase secret sauce can be argued till the cows come, but I have certainly chomped on my share of lips and teeth in it. The last of these was the "oops" we forgot to put LV in the Achro 260, and "OOPS" we forgot to tell you when you shelled out 45 large for it. Ironically, with the IQ250, there is an entire campaign being run around LV. In all this time, not a single correspondence from Denmark explaining the situation of why a cornerstone feature of the IQ series was an afterthought, even worse, spoken of multiple times in their literature on the back when promoting its sale...BTW, did I mention it was 45 large and I waited 4 months after giving 1/2 money up front for the order, investing in a bunch of filters and only to find out it could not focus off spectrum without a bunch of workarounds? The IQ was wonderful, but the experience was terrible and the workflow for me was not practical. Apparently a lot my experience was used to improve the launch process for the IQ250, so that gives me a nice warm and fuzzy and I will add up the time I wasted and the money I lost and see if Revenue Canada will allow me a deduction.
My dealer was kind enough to take it back. Any good service we see from Phase is from the dealer network and the time they spend with their customers' issues, making up for the manufacturer's shortcomings. I feel for these guys are the unsung heroes, and they are stuck in this "cottage" industry with nowhere to go. At least they have their rental businesses to keep them supplemented.
Most annoying is the double talk. It is sickening, some can be written off to marketing, but you cannot start talking about 1-2 fps as capable of shooting sports, or tout CCD as a unique look and then start claiming CMOS is better when you finally have a back out, or claim the DF focus compares to DSLRs.
Yes I am griping but I expect more when I spend this kind of money. I still have an IQ180 and DF and lenses and so yes, I do have their kit and some experience dealing with them. On a positive note the crappy Phase service is certainly delivered with less arrogance than the crappy service from Leaf - yes I also and an Aptus 12 for a while! If anyone wants to debate this, I'd be happy to forward emails. I will not even get into the Capture One "GPU" certification process!
For me, tech cam use will always keep in the the MFDB game. When time, patience, and expensive lenses are in abundance, the results cannot be matched by any other system yet. However, I am of the opinion that MF can only be sustained by critical mass. Sony appears to be doing this by making the this sensor ubiquitous. I appreciate there may be subtle differences as we see in skin tones between Leaf and Phase, but I don't expect anything earth shattering.
I do think we will have a rangefinder type EVF implementation in a mirror less body soon with these CMOS sensors, but purely speculative.
Pentax is coming at this from a DSLR starting point, and in that sense they do have an advantage. In the end, these are tools and the decision will be made on price/value/performance and invested base already in an individual's kit.
Our incumbent vendors - Phase/Hassy need to change their business models. USB 3 still not fully implemented, new DF, 4 years later still a pipe dream, issues like what I described regarding LV on the Achro etc. are simply not acceptable. Would I drop 45K on a Bimmer take it home and find out it has no seats, and will never have seats, but I can use my lawn chairs in it as a workaround?
BTW, I saw the new Hassy Sony A99 rebadge in Frankfurt. Looked like an A99 drowned and was pulled out of the water 9 months later. Was front and centre in a display case with a 6999Euro price next to it. What a joke!!!
I appreciate most of you have a lot invested in this gear and there is a certain emotional obligation that comes with it. I feel the same way, but sometimes a sh1t sandwich is just that. For the rest of the debates from people that have never shot extensively with these cameras or dealt with these companies, the arguments are not much different from a group of pre-pubescent boys debating the merits of a Ferrari vs. a Porsche!
One sliver of hope is that larger established companies like Ricoh and Sony are now investing more in this product category, and that can only elevate the entire market.
Sorry for the rant, I've now got to go change some diapers.
The Phase/Hassy prices will have to drop in the mid-long term. There is no way you sell a cropped 50MP back for 35K when there are competing 40MP backs in the 10-15K range from below, and 60-80MP used backs in the 15-30K range from above.
The Phase secret sauce can be argued till the cows come, but I have certainly chomped on my share of lips and teeth in it. The last of these was the "oops" we forgot to put LV in the Achro 260, and "OOPS" we forgot to tell you when you shelled out 45 large for it. Ironically, with the IQ250, there is an entire campaign being run around LV. In all this time, not a single correspondence from Denmark explaining the situation of why a cornerstone feature of the IQ series was an afterthought, even worse, spoken of multiple times in their literature on the back when promoting its sale...BTW, did I mention it was 45 large and I waited 4 months after giving 1/2 money up front for the order, investing in a bunch of filters and only to find out it could not focus off spectrum without a bunch of workarounds? The IQ was wonderful, but the experience was terrible and the workflow for me was not practical. Apparently a lot my experience was used to improve the launch process for the IQ250, so that gives me a nice warm and fuzzy and I will add up the time I wasted and the money I lost and see if Revenue Canada will allow me a deduction.
My dealer was kind enough to take it back. Any good service we see from Phase is from the dealer network and the time they spend with their customers' issues, making up for the manufacturer's shortcomings. I feel for these guys are the unsung heroes, and they are stuck in this "cottage" industry with nowhere to go. At least they have their rental businesses to keep them supplemented.
Most annoying is the double talk. It is sickening, some can be written off to marketing, but you cannot start talking about 1-2 fps as capable of shooting sports, or tout CCD as a unique look and then start claiming CMOS is better when you finally have a back out, or claim the DF focus compares to DSLRs.
Yes I am griping but I expect more when I spend this kind of money. I still have an IQ180 and DF and lenses and so yes, I do have their kit and some experience dealing with them. On a positive note the crappy Phase service is certainly delivered with less arrogance than the crappy service from Leaf - yes I also and an Aptus 12 for a while! If anyone wants to debate this, I'd be happy to forward emails. I will not even get into the Capture One "GPU" certification process!
For me, tech cam use will always keep in the the MFDB game. When time, patience, and expensive lenses are in abundance, the results cannot be matched by any other system yet. However, I am of the opinion that MF can only be sustained by critical mass. Sony appears to be doing this by making the this sensor ubiquitous. I appreciate there may be subtle differences as we see in skin tones between Leaf and Phase, but I don't expect anything earth shattering.
I do think we will have a rangefinder type EVF implementation in a mirror less body soon with these CMOS sensors, but purely speculative.
Pentax is coming at this from a DSLR starting point, and in that sense they do have an advantage. In the end, these are tools and the decision will be made on price/value/performance and invested base already in an individual's kit.
Our incumbent vendors - Phase/Hassy need to change their business models. USB 3 still not fully implemented, new DF, 4 years later still a pipe dream, issues like what I described regarding LV on the Achro etc. are simply not acceptable. Would I drop 45K on a Bimmer take it home and find out it has no seats, and will never have seats, but I can use my lawn chairs in it as a workaround?
BTW, I saw the new Hassy Sony A99 rebadge in Frankfurt. Looked like an A99 drowned and was pulled out of the water 9 months later. Was front and centre in a display case with a 6999Euro price next to it. What a joke!!!
I appreciate most of you have a lot invested in this gear and there is a certain emotional obligation that comes with it. I feel the same way, but sometimes a sh1t sandwich is just that. For the rest of the debates from people that have never shot extensively with these cameras or dealt with these companies, the arguments are not much different from a group of pre-pubescent boys debating the merits of a Ferrari vs. a Porsche!
One sliver of hope is that larger established companies like Ricoh and Sony are now investing more in this product category, and that can only elevate the entire market.
Sorry for the rant, I've now got to go change some diapers.
A few comments. Specs look really good for 645DII but I'm not quite ready to let go of my CCD 645D just yet till an in depth comparison of low ISO Raw files is compared between the two cameras. Think of the image charateristic differences between the CCD M9 and the high ISO feature laden CMOS Leica M240. Time will tell but I do have confidence that it's performance will be notable.
I too wish the new wide angle zoom was much akin to Leica's 30-90 zoom. I think that would have peeked the interest of Landscape 35mm photographers who are thinking of moving up to MFD. We already have the legacy 45-85 645 zoom which for a relatively poultry sum is a exceptional performer, especially between 45 and 65mm. Unfortunately it's not a weather sealed lens.
I always wondered why Leica never offered a adapter to use Pentax 645 lenses on the S camera as they do for Mamiya 645 lenses. This always perplexed me. I do agree if Pentax offers adapters for Hassy, S and other MF manufacturers lenses, they are likely to increase their user base for the new camera.
Dave (D&A)
I too wish the new wide angle zoom was much akin to Leica's 30-90 zoom. I think that would have peeked the interest of Landscape 35mm photographers who are thinking of moving up to MFD. We already have the legacy 45-85 645 zoom which for a relatively poultry sum is a exceptional performer, especially between 45 and 65mm. Unfortunately it's not a weather sealed lens.
I always wondered why Leica never offered a adapter to use Pentax 645 lenses on the S camera as they do for Mamiya 645 lenses. This always perplexed me. I do agree if Pentax offers adapters for Hassy, S and other MF manufacturers lenses, they are likely to increase their user base for the new camera.
Dave (D&A)