Game changer? Pentax 645 II - 10k USD for 50Mpx CMOS, 3fps, ISO 200k+

[jlm]

i've said this before, but if Sony were to put their A7R business end in a "back" they would offer something quite similar to the IQ250: same sensor/pixel size, articulated LCD with mag focus, live view, live exposure with histogram. Hard to imagine the price of that would get to even $5k

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Bravo, jagsiva...bravo!

 

[pozzello]

Back to beauty pagent contestants - she has my vote

And if someone would make a full frame 6 x 6 sensor I would mortgage my house in a heartbeat.

 

[stephengilbert]

Maybe when a long post trashing Phase and Leaf elicits a "Bravo!" it's time to give this subject a rest.

How about concentrating on trashing the Las Vegas photographer and the taste of Americans for a while?

 

[jagsiva]

Maybe when a long post trashing Phase and Leaf elicits a "Bravo!" it's time to give this subject a rest.

How about concentrating on trashing the Las Vegas photographer and the taste of Americans for a while?

My definition of trash talk is shooting my mouth off without first hand evidence or experience. In my case this is not the case. I'd be happy to share whatever you like. This has been my experience and I have not seen it improve despite multiple attempts on my part.

For example, I had to open support ticket with Phase to find out the Achro back did not have LV. Below is the excerpt. Do you really think that is the service we should get on a product that was clearly advertised with this feature, not to mention that LV has been a cornerstone of IQ capability? Of course nobody from Denmark contacted me. I did reach out to their US sales guy and the response was that he did not have an answer for me and not really his department. I also posted here, but none of the often helpful dealers were able to shed any light on the matter either.

I have similar emails from LEAF when I tried to upgrade my Aptus 12 to a Credo 80.

So, no this is not trashing anyone, but simply stating the facts.


01. Aug 2013 14:45
Customer Support DK
5. Finished

Latest comment
Hi Jag,

Noted. Apologies you were not informed.

Support


01. Aug 2013 14:30

2. Input from web

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Latest comment
Please do. This is simply not acceptable, and I'm sure he or she will be getting call from my dealer today as well.

BTW, let them know that I am still waiting for LV over USB on my IQ180.

Simply disgusted by your company's behaviour on this.

Jag

01. Aug 2013 14:23
Customer Support DK
5. Finished

Latest comment
Hi Jag,

I will forward your concerns to the product manager.

Support

01. Aug 2013 14:13

2. Input from web

Latest comment
This is mind numbing! Why is this not stated in any of your literature? LV is one of your major features with the IQ series!

Jag

01. Aug 2013 14:10
Customer Support DK
5. Finished
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Latest comment
Hi Jag,

Live view is not possible with Achromatic - live view requires binning (Sensor +) which is not available on the Acho sensor.

Support

01. Aug 2013 13:36 - 2. Input from web
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Latest comment
Hi, I just received a new IQ260 Achromatic back and I don't see live view on the menu. Can you please let me know if I have missed something?

I also have an IQ 180 and am familiar with your backs and how live view is used.

 

[stephengilbert]

I used the word "trash" as a verb: as in to bad-mouth or criticize. I think you'd agree that your post was critical, no? My point was more that this thread his sunk to the level that fans of one product or another say "bravo" when the "enemy's" product is criticized.

 

[jon11]

Notably this is, as far as I can tell, just rumor, and not actual product information. But sure, let's go ahead and take it at face value...

First, I think it's great and a net positive for everyone that Pentax would do a nice crop-CMOS camera. MFD is a small sliver of the overall market and everyone in it (Phase, Leaf, Leica, Hassy, Pentax) benifit when more photographers hear about, try, or purchase medium format. The main path to growth for anyone in MFD is to increase the size of the pie by getting another 1% of the total market. As much as the narrative is more fun to enjoy when it's billed as P1 vs Hassy or P1/Leaf/Hassy vs Pentax the truth is the narrative is more [all MFD] vs "good enough".

Second, this is nearly post-for-post the same conversation that takes place every time a new camera is released in the lower-end pricing range. Go back and read the posts here or any other forum when the 1D, 1Ds2, Mamiya ZD, D3X, 5D2, D800, or Pentax 645D was announced/rumored/shipped. Basically some people say the sky is falling. Yet Phase One has done *better* and better (revenue/profit/product-quality) every year since the financial crises.

Notably to this thread this has included the years for which Pentax had offered a roughly $10k Pentax 645D at 40MP which was more or less the same sensor as in the H4D-40 and similar (at least in spec) to the p40+ and IQ140.

Someone said earlier the only difference would be flash sync and wireless tethering and tech camera compatibility. Here's a continuation of that list in no particular order:
Capture One compatibility (both for tethering and for raw processing where the algorithms have been fine tuned with great effort to get the most out of the camera), tethering experience and speed (not all "usb3" cameras will have the same actual tethering speed, a lot depends on the quality of the usb3 implementation and internal processing speed of the camera), color profiles, quality of the high ISO (specs are meaningless here, if/when hassy and Pentax ship a comparable camera we will have to compare the final resulting images at high ISO. And don't assume because one company has spec'd a higher ISO setting that they are getting better quality at high ISO). Availability in rental houses and rental studios as a main camera or backup to a personally owned camera, familiarity of digital techs and assistants in major and minor markets, quality and speed of professional support/repair in a particular market, quality and variety of made-for-digital lenses, look/feel of camera, burst speed/depth (very very few MF shooters need 3fps, but many want sustained shooting which has no buffer limit and want review of the last image to be immediate even when a long burst is shot), fast focus mask in the back (useful for fashion, but amazingly useful for sheimflug movements, double tap for 100% focus review on a specific area without having to first zoom then second scroll around, customizable highlight warning, variety of grid overlays including user movable guides, metadata entry for at-time-of-capture horizon/pitch for automatic batch correction of perspective and horizon, FireWire 800 in addition to usb3 (nice as a backup and for longer cable lengths including a manufacturer approved 33' cable), extremely high build quality with great history of durability and longevity (we have many h25 users still despite being 11 years old) compatibility with 3rd party cameras like the RZ, Contax, Fuji 680, etc with unique features like waiste level viewfinders and built in movements and dedicated fan bases.

O, and yes, flash sync speed, wireless review/control, and tech/view camera compatibility .

The point is the sky didn't fall before (quite the opposite actually) and isn't falling now. But we are, as quality-discerning photographers getting more and different options, and that's great news for everyone.

Jon,

Yes, thanks, I have held a Pentax 645D. Though it's a bit insulting that you'd think I have not.

We could go back and forth on the details forever. For instance the live view on the *shipping* IQ250 is excellent, contrary to what "you've heard" (where did you hear this??). See our IQ250 Live View video as one example).

But my point was not that the Pentax 645D II isn't going to be a good camera. I assume it will be a very nice camera, like it's predecessor. I'd also be happy to agree there are some features the current Pentax 645D has over comparable Phase/Leaf/Hassy offerings, and the same will be likely true of the Pentax 645D II.

In other words I wasn't attacking your camera.

My point was only that the sky is not falling for Phase/Leaf/Hassy and that, as counter intuitive as it is, having a lower-end product enter a market segment often helps the dominant players. Phase/Leaf sold more The Mamiya ZD didn't kill Phase One's P25 sales; if anything, they improved them. Leica will still sell lots of M bodies even though you can buy a Sony FF rangefinder with arguably "more features" for less money. Phase One IQ140 and Credo 40 sales weren't crushed by the Pentax 645D (mark 1); to the contrary, sales were up over that period.

The theory, and in the last several years my practical experience has been, the more offerings they are for higher-end cameras the more people start researching all their options (they may hear about a ZD, or a Pentax, but they're going to spend at least a few hours checking out the relevant competition before they commit) and the more people start researching their options the more total people will end up finding a Phase One or Leaf is the best choice for them (some/many will also end up reaffirming their original plan to go with the ZD/Pentax/etc).

And re: "i think Phase One is great for studio" - working for the largest dealer in the US does provide some insight here: about 50% of our customers at this point spend little or no time in a studio.

you didn't insult my camera at all, i know it's a great camera and nothing in the world justifies the price your company is charging, but the market will say this in my opinion.
i simply noted that you dismissed many feature of pentax as not important, and pointed out only the strong point of a phase one.
in my opinion phase one is better for studio and use of tech cam,. for the rest is simply behind.
in my opinion the pentax 645d2 compared to 645 offer a lot more for the money and is a proposal that could steal customer from other medium format brand.
but they are my opinion.
i live in italy and professional world here is falling down, rent are closing , advertisement is less, features, less, competition high, maybe america is still an eldorado with thousand of photographer investing 50 k for a double camera system, without lenses.

 

[jon11]

in my opinion for example pentax cannot charge the price they are charging for new lenses, and they are shooting on their foot for this.
they could charge much less, and attract customer.

 

[jon11]

You people have a point on the price of the excretable DF body. Going through DF shutters like water we're on the point of having to buy a second DF just to have while we send the other for repair. We were playing with the idea of switching to the D800, with custom ICC profiles the colour was practically the same but the 2:3 sensor works against us. We end up losing too many megapixels at the sides. This however would give us the bigger chip at a correct ratio, more megapixels and we could buy two for the price we would sell the present setup and what we would have spent on the new DF body. I think I would be amiss not to be looking at it.

How is tethering done with the 645D? Does anyone know what the shutter rating is on it?

hi


that 0s a mother point. with phase a double system camera, with one body as back up, will cost 65k, against 20....
tethering is madre thorugh a program, then you can auto import in lightroon et voila...you can even remote control, even if I'm not sure of this but it should be...i personally use a wifi card in the 2 slots not the same.probaly with usb 3 the tethering will be faster and better

 

[jagsiva]

I used the word "trash" as a verb: as in to bad-mouth or criticize. I think you'd agree that your post was critical, no? My point was more that this thread his sunk to the level that fans of one product or another say "bravo" when the "enemy's" product is criticized.

Yes, I am critical because as a customer, I expect a baseline level of service and business practice, and when that is not there, I am entitled to make my case.

I am no enemy of Phase, I have spent a lot of money with them, and I simply don't have the time for creating and managing any more enemies. My only request is that you please do not dismiss what I have said as another case of "sour grapes", I have been through this saga and spent my money on it. My experience with Phase on the Achro, and my experience with Leaf on the upgrade were both well outside acceptable consumer protection practices in my jurisdiction, and if I had the time or patience, I would have pursued the issue further. Moreover, I felt that my dealer was stuck in the middle of this and felt I owed him something. Please extend me the courtesy of understanding my position that there are no friends or enemies beyond the economic transaction in question.

I don't know Pentax, I have never used their equipment. As such, I did not claim to know anything about their upcoming camera. My only take on the new camera is that companies like Ricoh and Sony can only bring a level of maturity, stability, predictability and scale to this business.

 

[dougpeterson]

It was going to be one of my first options Doug. Problem is that Live View with our Aptus II is just not good enough for consistent accurate (close to) macro distance focusing. From our testing AF gets sharper results pretty much every time. Mainly due to the lag with the LV. What is the price of your camera? Close focus distance? Can it be triggered electronically? I'm willing to change my mind. We blew through our DF+ new shutter (they put the DF+ shutter rated for 100K in our DF last time) in 7 months, i.e. just a month after the warranty was up. If we go for a manual focus solution it has to be easy to use across multiple workers and thousands of pages per day. I'm worried about consistency of focus between photographers and books in a fast paced environment.

We are pretty far OT.

Shoot me an email and I'll send you all the details on Tuesday. But in short: expensive, up to 2:1 magnification with no focus slippage, yes, and 1-million release warranty, and our (separate but compatible) copy stations are all built around the premise that the book should be raised to the same plane of focus which means you only focus the camera once per project.

 

[Uaiomex]

I'm proposing Pentax to come with a mirrorless 645 ASAP. Imagine the possibilities! Eduardo.

i've said this before, but if Sony were to put their A7R business end in a "back" they would offer something quite similar to the IQ250: same sensor/pixel size, articulated LCD with mag focus, live view, live exposure with histogram. Hard to imagine the price of that would get to even $5k

 

[Uaiomex]

I see it as a "very possible" game changer. All the new features in this camera (body & sensor) are very appealling to dslr users. The price is almost sirensong-like. If there is a way to increase sales it must come from dslr users. A huge proportion of hi-end dslr users came from MF in the first place I think that even P1 and Hasselblad can't ignore this fact. Eduardo.

I don't see the 645DII as a game changer anymore than the 645D was. The 645D uses the same sensor as the Hasselblad 40MP and an equivalent Kodak sensor to that used in the Leica and those companies don’t appear to have been impacted to any large extent. Sure it may have caused some pricing pressure, but not as much as the Nikon 800 (IMHO). I love my 645D, but lenses, system and support continue to be an issue for Pentax, most especially in the US. I'm not particularly tempted by the 645DII at this point, other than higher ISO it doesn't offer much that is important to me.

As to appearance, none of the MF cameras is something I would display as art (well, maybe a tech cam). I really liked the appearance of the Pentax 645 film cameras and found the softer, wider shape of the 645D a bit of a disappointment – something like a 645N that had been eating too many doughnuts.

I like the appearance of the Sony A7 - no curves, angular - very crystalline.

Tom

 

[kapil Syal]

game changer?
.. yes, i'd give it 10 to 35 odds ..

shake up P1 ? (as in reality check) ?
.. their choice

vote with my money ..
not yet!

come on guys .. there is in nothing above that we haven't known .. we just kept quiet about it

 

[Antonio Chagin]

Why some people are considering the Pentax 645D a lower end camera?
Some time ago Hasselblad was everyones dream. Mamiya and Pentax were the Japanese cheaper options in the market, but not lower end cameras!
Now all of the sudden Mamiya is superior. Explain why?

 

[fotografz]

Wow!

Some legitimate criticism based on experience, but holy moly some of it is really reaching. The vitriol is palatable like someone killed your dog or something

Hey, we all select our tools for the job at hand, and that process is a mix of experience, logic, finances, and a wee bit of desire

All kidding aside, the Pentax looks to be a fine tool. However, not a tool suited to everyone.

Frankly, I cannot recall any camera system I bought into for the camera alone. Lenses first, camera second. Sometimes one even puts up with a lesser camera because the lenses are so good.

Sometimes people either do not have the money, or they simply do not want to spend more than needed even if they do have the money. After retiring, I have sympathy for both points of view.

If one doesn't have the ability, need or the desire to buy Phase One, or Leica or Hasselblad … or if one of them left a bad taste in your mouth, the solution is simple … don't buy it.

Every negative point can be countered by those who had a different experience … which makes for bad blood, and numbered lists of grievances answered by laundry lists of positives.

- Marc

 

[GrahamWelland]

I'm serious here---I'd like to see how the Pentax 645D II would be as a converted IR camera. That's IR with live view. That's huge. Graham? You got room in that camera cart land rover ...

Hmm, that would be interesting! LV for IR would rock. That said, with my current setup it just means shooting 2 or 3 insurance shots for focus or using older lenses with IR focus indication.

The 645 II will be a welcome addition to the MF scene, just as it's well liked predecessor was. I just hope that Pentax USA decide that they want to support it here.

 

[AreBee]

johnnygoesdigital,

The S may have sealing, but using your fingertips to hold that camera...

Sorry but I don't understand your meaning. Please can you explain?

Regards,

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Rob,

The form factor is such that when holding the camera with gloves on, the fingertips were the only positive contact I had with this camera. In comparison, the Hasselblad H has a battery grip I could wrap my hands around. What I did like about the S was that I could be covered in snow, and I didn't care about the camera.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

I used the word "trash" as a verb: as in to bad-mouth or criticize. I think you'd agree that your post was critical, no? My point was more that this thread his sunk to the level that fans of one product or another say "bravo" when the "enemy's" product is criticized.

I understand your use of the word trash. However, using the word "enemy" is incorrect. Why is it when someone shares an opinion about products that they've actually used and accurately describe the experience, it's considered trashing? The fact that these experiences as it relates to MFD are somehow implied to condemn to the industry is not accurate. The dynamics of MFD have changed, and unless you're fully invested in a products lens line up, even brand loyalty can't help. Now on to the 645DII...

So far the specs look good, but I would love LS lenses! There I said it!