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Phase One

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Hassy is getting about 47 percent revenue from the Pacific Rim countries and the product is mostly those glorified Sonys. It's pretty simple there is a major market and Leica and Hassy are tapping it. Its a market that Phase could most likely do better at so bringing in a investor to build product for that market may very well be the agenda. I don't look at this at all as doom and gloom as some but a opportunity for Phase to build growth in other markets. Leica has a product line that is pretty diverse and Hassy with these Sony clones adds a product that don't cost upwards of 40k. Speculating here but maybe Phase will get involved with a purchase of a smaller valued product line to support expanding that market. Like others have said lets look at this a year from now. But I look at this as a building project whatever that maybe. Be it they milk it to death in 5 years who knows.

Today Phase has three product lines under there roof Phase, Leaf and Mamiya but none of them break the under 15k mark. So it's very possible another joint venture with a product under 10k could serve that market. Who knows but the possibilities are there.
 

alajuela

Active member
Hassy is getting about 47 percent revenue from the Pacific Rim countries and the product is mostly those glorified Sonys. It's pretty simple there is a major market and Leica and Hassy are tapping it. Its a market that Phase could most likely do better at so bringing in a investor to build product for that market may very well be the agenda. I don't look at this at all as doom and gloom as some but a opportunity for Phase to build growth in other markets. Leica has a product line that is pretty diverse and Hassy with these Sony clones adds a product that don't cost upwards of 40k. Speculating here but maybe Phase will get involved with a purchase of a smaller valued product line to support expanding that market. Like others have said lets look at this a year from now. But I look at this as a building project whatever that maybe. Be it they milk it to death in 5 years who knows.

Today Phase has three product lines under there roof Phase, Leaf and Mamiya but none of them break the under 15k mark. So it's very possible another joint venture with a product under 10k could serve that market. Who knows but the possibilities are there.
Hi Guy
I agree with you 100%
Phil
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Today Phase has three product lines under there roof Phase, Leaf and Mamiya but none of them break the under 15k mark. So it's very possible another joint venture with a product under 10k could serve that market. Who knows but the possibilities are there.
Technically the Credo 40 promo sits at $13k for back+body+80D. But I agree with you're overall point - they don't attempt to serve that lower-price-point area of the market.

A product under 10k - sure I'd take that, as long as it rocks.
 

miska

Member
Perhaps P1 will pull a Canon and get into the super high end video market. Lots of money to be made there, catering to the ultra HD / 8k market, with a CMOS MFD chip.
Now that 4k is becoming "mainstream", providing 8k video could be a non juicy market. P1 has expertise in dealing with multiple lens mounts and with the 250, they also know what large format CMOS chips are about.
I'm not sure I like the idea though. For Canon, it has brought the innovation on the stills market to a halt - at least on the body side.

But perhaps it will allow P1 to finance a full frame MFD CMOS, which is really designed by P1 - so with tech cams in mind...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Possibilities are out there for them to grow. Where's Dalsa in all this CMOS sensors. Maybe they will invest in building there own sensors. Its hard to say but that Asia market is huge and I think they can make some headway in that market.

You know we may all hate what Hassy is doing with glorified Sony products that does not mean its not a huge profit center for them. Bottom line like any business you need growth. This investment firm may see Phase as a high end product line but no bread and butter products to offer. I don't have any answers but I do see possibilities.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Did Phase buy Mamiya also? I knew they owned Leaf, but I thought Mamiya was still out there on their own, but with the development parallels with Phase One on bodies and new lenses.

Paul C.
 

RVB

Member
Hassy is getting about 47 percent revenue from the Pacific Rim countries and the product is mostly those glorified Sonys. It's pretty simple there is a major market and Leica and Hassy are tapping it. Its a market that Phase could most likely do better at so bringing in a investor to build product for that market may very well be the agenda. I don't look at this at all as doom and gloom as some but a opportunity for Phase to build growth in other markets. Leica has a product line that is pretty diverse and Hassy with these Sony clones adds a product that don't cost upwards of 40k. Speculating here but maybe Phase will get involved with a purchase of a smaller valued product line to support expanding that market. Like others have said lets look at this a year from now. But I look at this as a building project whatever that maybe. Be it they milk it to death in 5 years who knows.

Today Phase has three product lines under there roof Phase, Leaf and Mamiya but none of them break the under 15k mark. So it's very possible another joint venture with a product under 10k could serve that market. Who knows but the possibilities are there.

Phase could also push further into the software market,adding more features to C1P and creating a real alternative for PS could be a possibility.

Rob
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Paul I know some years ago not sure how many but Phase did invest in Mamiya. How much I am not sure.

Rob good point. Many are not into this Adobe cloud.
 

miska

Member
Yes, software...
I have always wondered what role C1 plays within Phase One. Do they do C1 because they like software and image processing, or do they develop C1 because they need it to support their MFDB business ? It's probably a bit of an academic question, but still, what is P1's "core business" ? Hardware or software (or both) ?

Clearly, Canon does DPP just because they must - I don't see much love for that product. Clearly also, P1 pushes very hard MFDB owners to use C1, and only offered Lightroom support as an afterthought (or it feels like it: it's supported, but the message is: if you use it, you leave some image quality on the table). Canon doesn't do that.

So if P1 starts to develop video, they probably need to upgrade C1 to video stuff. Like raw video ?
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Can I post my PhaseRed logo again? Please? No? Oh ok then :(

I think Phase have C1 so that they can (rightly) have quality control over the entire workflow.

I'd never even heard of C1 prior to looking at getting into MFDB. It'll never compete with Photoshop - not in a million years. But it does have a huge untapped market that is currently served primarily by Lightroom and Aperture.

Whether it makes business sense to go after that is another matter entirely. But it must be sorely tempting.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Red for them could be a great option but one downside is they serving a very high end expensive market. Canon has been moving in a very serious path on video. So they may not grab the lower end market. Not sure if that's good or bad. But I tend to think for them my opinion of course is get into a bread and butter type market to support the high end. But I agree whatever makes good business sense and gets market share is the way to go.

Certainly will be interesting to see what direction they take. As stated or not stated yet from folks there are some channels to pursue.

Lol and yes you can post your logo. Lol
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Yes, software...
I have always wondered what role C1 plays within Phase One. Do they do C1 because they like software and image processing, or do they develop C1 because they need it to support their MFDB business ? It's probably a bit of an academic question, but still, what is P1's "core business" ? Hardware or software (or both) ?
Both are core businesses.

The hardware is larger by revenue but both are independently profitable and justify themselves in addition to aiding the other. It's really pretty complimentary if you ask me and is one of P1's largest market advantages.

Clearly, Canon does DPP just because they must - I don't see much love for that product. Clearly also, P1 pushes very hard MFDB owners to use C1, and only offered Lightroom support as an afterthought (or it feels like it: it's supported, but the message is: if you use it, you leave some image quality on the table). Canon doesn't do that.
LR support was never an after thought. But it's not up to Phase One what Adobe does and does not support. Adobe is an entirely independent company and if they choose to add raw support for a particular camera, and how quickly (whether P1, Canon, Leaf, or anyone else) is entirely their decision.

The reason we (largely the dealer channel) emphasize that customers should at least give C1 a thorough look for processing P1/Leaf raw files is that we find, over and over again, that C1 gets more out of those files. This should not shock you. The guys programming C1 are down the hall from, drink with, and go on vacations with, the guy who make the digital backs. They have access to the early prototypes and develop all new hardware alongside and in consultation with the software guys. They also have the strongest business interest in making the P1 files look as good as possible and naturally spend orders of magnitude more time fine tuning the algorithms and profiles of P1 backs than do the guys at LR. If Adobe came out with a camera (exceedingly unlikely but humor me) I'm sure they'd continue to support other cameras in LR, but would spend a little extra time fine tuning the support for their own camera.

Remember that the vast majority of the market could care less about the last 10% of image quality. That's what we're arguing about here. LR does a very good job with P1/Leaf files; it's just C1 (in our opinion) does a bit better. But since we serve the segment of the market that cares a great deal about that last 10% we tell people to at least try C1 for the P1 raws.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
RED and Phase One sensors are remarkably close in cost. However, whilst Phase One are pretty much at the top of the stills market costwise, for video it would seem there is almost no upper limit.

I'm firmly of the view that what we've seen happen on every format below MFDB regarding convergence of video and stills cameras is inevitable for MF. Remember that RED once talked about introducing 645 and 617 sensors. Ok, so that was just marketing BS, but there's no reason to believe that it won't happen in time.

Additionally, in the LuLa interview, P1 made a very clear statement that they're looking at video, but wanted to wait until they had something groundbreaking to kick *** with.

An 8K sensor may well be just that product. Wide fast lenses would be a big challenge though.

It is an intriguing, even if possibly madly thought out in my head, tie-up.

 

RVB

Member
RED and Phase One sensors are remarkably close in cost. However, whilst Phase One are pretty much at the top of the stills market costwise, for video it would seem there is almost no upper limit.

I'm firmly of the view that what we've seen happen on every format below MFDB regarding convergence of video and stills cameras is inevitable for MF. Remember that RED once talked about introducing 645 and 617 sensors. Ok, so that was just marketing BS, but there's no reason to believe that it won't happen in time.

Additionally, in the LuLa interview, P1 made a very clear statement that they're looking at video, but wanted to wait until they had something groundbreaking to kick *** with.

An 8K sensor may well be just that product. Wide fast lenses would be a big challenge though.

It is an intriguing, even if possibly madly thought out in my head, tie-up.

I think high end video will continue to be dominated by Arri/Zeiss,and Canon is also looking for a piece of this pie along with Red.

Could Phase go after the indie film makers in the way that Blackmagic have with their relatively cheap 4K camera?
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
(Should probably add that of course it doesn't have to be RED. There are a handful of similar companies out there that could be a good fit. These guys have probably the most impressive camera on the market right now... Phantom Flex4K )
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
I think high end video will continue to be dominated by Arri/Zeiss,and Canon is also looking for a piece of this pie along with Red.

Could Phase go after the indie film makers in the way that Blackmagic have with their relatively cheap 4K camera?
To the first sentence, indeed - see my cross-post. Doesn't have to be RED. Arri is maybe another possible option.

Can't see Blackmagic market as a potential target though. Tough to differentiate at that price point, and neither Phase, nor RED/Arri, seem to be interested in bottom-feeding.
 

Ken_R

New member
C1 has been out there for many years. It was my raw processing software of choice back when I started shooting with DSLRs back in 2003 (with a fuji s2 pro and then a Canon 10D). It was the best then and is about so today also. The only thing I do not like about it is the highlight/shadow tone mapping adjustments, they seem too harsh. I also prefer Lightroom for file management. But in regards to getting the best image quality out of RAW files C1 pro is about the best. The Camera Manufacturer's raw software gets really good quality also but they do not offer enough functionality to keep tweaking files. They are good as an initial step to generate a tiff and then photoshop or another software must be used right after. A lot of times I do that with C1 pro but C1 pro allows me to take the files a bit further before having to use another software, its not always a requirement. Of course, as always, YMMV.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Capture One, IMO is a good software, looking for just a few things to get ironed out, but may never happen. I also started using it in 2003 way back to 3.7.

History, would love to see that, permanent as LR has.
As Ken stated, the highlight adjustment can be a bit harsh
Please add noise reduction to local adjustments (in Vr6 slider was there but greyed out). Totally gone in Vr 7

Please add the ability to make color adjustment in overlapping local adjustments. Currently this does not work as the 2nd color adjustment layer will be corrupted.
I opened a case with CI and Phase One and was told this was just the it has to be by Phase One due to the ICC process within the local adjustment????? LR can do this with
no issues.
l
In the past, I tended to develop D800e and D800 images in LR as I just did like the base color profile for the D800e in Capture One. Using the profile
for the IQ250 works much better for me, and I have started using C1 for Nikon again.

In the mulitple image view, the way 3.7.8 allowed you to place the images much better to me now they have to be in numerical order only. For tech
camera work the method of 3.7.8 to me is much better.

Paul C.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
In the mulitple image view, the way 3.7.8 allowed you to place the images much better to me now they have to be in numerical order only. For tech camera work the method of 3.7.8 to me is much better.
In v7 you can drag the thumbnails and order them manually. Still not quite as slick for some specific purposes as having a forced 2-up or 4-up display, but much more flexible in total.
 

steve_cor

Member
I read that Silverfleet has sold their share of Phase One.

You could search Silverfleet sells Phase One to Axcel for 4.6x.

I don't think Phase One will be affected by ownership transfer from one private equity firm to another.



--Steve.
 
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