Well, that is not a good sign. I fear they had to take additional money to get this CMOS up and working. Not good for them as they always have been proud to be financed by the staff....
I wish them well and hope this strengthens them instead of getting them into a Hasselblad kind of marketing orientation.
Greetings from Germany
This link in danish provides more details:
Danske Phase One solgt til engelsk kapitalfond - Electronic Supply DK
The original owners keep 40 percent of the shares, the remaining 60 was bought for 500-600 million danish crowns, which put a value on the company of about 180 million USD.
I am not sure this recent move to expand their growth into CMOS and other areas should be viewed as a bad thing. Sure, Phase One has been the leader in the medium format market since they introduced the "Powerphase" and "Lightphase". I have seen them grow and manufacture products that produce image quality that every digital camera is now compared to.
I really think this new move will allow them to expand and refine their current camera body technology as well as reinvest in this new CMOS movement. This shows how big of an opportunity this market really is, despite the critics who think it is shrinking.
I have been on the dealer side of this business since it was first developed and one that helped "pioneer" the movement to the end user, so I welcome their interest in wanting to take advantage of this expansion to grow at a faster rate than they may have been able to do without taking on an equity partner.
Good luck Phase One, and thanks for the ride so far.
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after posting the very first sentences that came to my mind I posted this to LL:
Two opposing ideas:
first: Well, that is not a good sign. I fear they had to take additional money to get this CMOS up and working.
Not good for them as they always have been proud to be financed by the staff....VC´s are of course no nice people. they want to earn.
You are the ones whose blood they want to suck and that mostly fast.
second : of course they are right, either grow or close it. For a CMOS business they have to get up volume.
To even launch a new body to support this, it will need a significant investment. That could be raised by this if the capital was raised.
If earnings are big enough everybody will be happy.
(it was not explicitely said they raised capital - only they bought the shares). as long as we don´t know what this really means in terms of capitalization
the information could be bad, good or neutral. All else is pure speculation.
I wish them well, I hope it works and will keep this industry alive and kicking. we really need a healthy Phase One, as this is right now one of the columns
several other smaller operations in this industry rely on (myself included).
Greetings from Germany
The 250 as well - that is something that has been in the pipeline for many years, and has now been released. R&D spent, profits maintained, time to reap the rewards.
From published figures, and statements by dealers in the know, Phase One's profits have been growing since the financial crash.
I'm not convinced that this transaction has been done to finance products already on the market, or very close (in MF timelines) to being launched - unless they need a new factory to actually make the camera of course.
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Devellopment is one thing. To ramp up a production line for doing a new product another one. Of course I can be wrong , but after some attempts on running a VC based company back in 2000-2003 I have some experiences with VC´s, due diligence, business plans and projected earnings.
Of course - I don´t have any first hand infos, but as I read this it is very likely as I wrote it.
The central question is: did they get new cash to spend from this deal.
Anything else is not much important right now.
That's a testimony of dedication by Phase One employes, all that they have o achieved.
I continue to believe that someone should just buy both Phase and Hasselblad and introduce price competitive offerings (of course leaving Hasselblad as brand for the cameras, and the administration to the Phase One team).
I am aware that premium quality products are never price performance leaders, so I am thinking in the lines of 2 times the sensor size at say 4 times the price.
Hope all goes fine for Phase One. Maybe is related to the new camera, as some suggested, to pay production.
The arrangement is not because P1 needed any help launching or ramping the IQ250.
Production on the IQ250 is already ramping. Demo units began shipping the business day after the announcements. End user shipments began last week.
Take a look at what this firm says is their speciality. Then we can revisit this thread in a year or so and things should be more clear.
Silverfleet Capital | View all
Silverfleet Capital | Creating value
it has been my experience .. (pathetically limited tho' it may be)
parents (entrepreneurs) sell MAJORITY stakes in their babies when
1. they feel that a baby sitter is more capable parent than themselves ( as in, that the present value of their annual income is exceeded by an LBO)
2. they have an irresistible urge to relocate to the Bahamas .. and let said baby-sitter adopt the pooch
3. some combination of the above ..
Re #2: Danes burn easily.
This will be my last post on this thread. See you all here in around a year and we can see how things have developed .
Most of the information comes from articles in the Danish financial paper Borsen.dk which is a subscription site.
However, it started with an article in May 2013 but you can find information about the content of the first news here:
Væksten stagnerer hos Phase One - Electronic Supply DK
Edited google translate:
The growth stagnates at Phase One
30 May 2013 - By Katrine Jensen Øgaard
The Danish manufacturer of high quality cameras have had to settle for a somewhat modest growth in 2012, which stands in stark contrast to previous years.
In 2012 obtained Phase One revenue of 366 million DKK which is only 4 percent more than the year before. The paper notes.
The 4 percent is a sharp drop in the company's growth compared to 2010 and 2011 when growth was around 30 per cent.
- It is clear that I will not be satisfied if we are to live with a growth of about 3-5 per cent. many years in a row. We have a goal to achieve sales of 500 million in 2015 and then we have something greater growth rates, says Henrik Ole Håkansson, CEO of Phase One, according to Borsen.dk
He expects that the company will soon be back on a growth of around 10-15 per cent. Since last year made significant investments in technological development.
2008 - 172
2009 - 183 (+6%)
2010 - 211 (+21%)
2011 - 277 (+25%)
2012 - 295 (+6%)
To hit his targeted revenue figure of 500M in 2015 would have required 20% year on year improvements for 2013, 14 and 15.
What I think is worth noting is that if Silverfleet are able to improve performance at Phase One as they have done at their better acquisitions, then the minority stake retained by employees will almost certainly deliver a better return when Silverfleet cash-out, than had Phase One continued as a 100% privately held company.
It's win-win all round basically if this goes well.
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as Doug said, we will all be much more enlightened in a year from now, but I would nevertheless give a guess:
_If_ the management team is still not looking for an exit (which I suspect knowing the mindset of Phase a bit) they are further develloping this brand and idea. So
Large part of this money will go into the development and future manufacturing of an exclusive, even larger chip- my guess around 100-132 (4x33 !) Mpix CMOS which will also be an 8k video device with subsampling.
This is the growth market they can invest in, and there will be a lot of music in the future.With this there are several open opportunities, to stay a photo company, to become a licensing chip reseller for the video industry and or do even highend 8k video by themselves.
Watch their employment ads for the next months and we will know.
Interestingly, the CEO did say in a recent interview that they were looking at video, and would enter it once they had a category killer product (or words to that effect).
Oh. Wait. I've just realised something...
They should just buy Hasselblad and be done with it, I say.
Hassy is getting about 47 percent revenue from the Pacific Rim countries and the product is mostly those glorified Sonys. It's pretty simple there is a major market and Leica and Hassy are tapping it. Its a market that Phase could most likely do better at so bringing in a investor to build product for that market may very well be the agenda. I don't look at this at all as doom and gloom as some but a opportunity for Phase to build growth in other markets. Leica has a product line that is pretty diverse and Hassy with these Sony clones adds a product that don't cost upwards of 40k. Speculating here but maybe Phase will get involved with a purchase of a smaller valued product line to support expanding that market. Like others have said lets look at this a year from now. But I look at this as a building project whatever that maybe. Be it they milk it to death in 5 years who knows.
Today Phase has three product lines under there roof Phase, Leaf and Mamiya but none of them break the under 15k mark. So it's very possible another joint venture with a product under 10k could serve that market. Who knows but the possibilities are there.
Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.
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Credo 40 promo sits at $13k for back+body+80D. But I agree with you're overall point - they don't attempt to serve that lower-price-point area of the market.
A product under 10k - sure I'd take that, as long as it rocks.
Perhaps P1 will pull a Canon and get into the super high end video market. Lots of money to be made there, catering to the ultra HD / 8k market, with a CMOS MFD chip.
Now that 4k is becoming "mainstream", providing 8k video could be a non juicy market. P1 has expertise in dealing with multiple lens mounts and with the 250, they also know what large format CMOS chips are about.
I'm not sure I like the idea though. For Canon, it has brought the innovation on the stills market to a halt - at least on the body side.
But perhaps it will allow P1 to finance a full frame MFD CMOS, which is really designed by P1 - so with tech cams in mind...
Possibilities are out there for them to grow. Where's Dalsa in all this CMOS sensors. Maybe they will invest in building there own sensors. Its hard to say but that Asia market is huge and I think they can make some headway in that market.
You know we may all hate what Hassy is doing with glorified Sony products that does not mean its not a huge profit center for them. Bottom line like any business you need growth. This investment firm may see Phase as a high end product line but no bread and butter products to offer. I don't have any answers but I do see possibilities.
Paul I know some years ago not sure how many but Phase did invest in Mamiya. How much I am not sure.
Rob good point. Many are not into this Adobe cloud.
I have always wondered what role C1 plays within Phase One. Do they do C1 because they like software and image processing, or do they develop C1 because they need it to support their MFDB business ? It's probably a bit of an academic question, but still, what is P1's "core business" ? Hardware or software (or both) ?
Clearly, Canon does DPP just because they must - I don't see much love for that product. Clearly also, P1 pushes very hard MFDB owners to use C1, and only offered Lightroom support as an afterthought (or it feels like it: it's supported, but the message is: if you use it, you leave some image quality on the table). Canon doesn't do that.
So if P1 starts to develop video, they probably need to upgrade C1 to video stuff. Like raw video ?
Can I post my PhaseRed logo again? Please? No? Oh ok then
I think Phase have C1 so that they can (rightly) have quality control over the entire workflow.
I'd never even heard of C1 prior to looking at getting into MFDB. It'll never compete with Photoshop - not in a million years. But it does have a huge untapped market that is currently served primarily by Lightroom and Aperture.
Whether it makes business sense to go after that is another matter entirely. But it must be sorely tempting.
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Red for them could be a great option but one downside is they serving a very high end expensive market. Canon has been moving in a very serious path on video. So they may not grab the lower end market. Not sure if that's good or bad. But I tend to think for them my opinion of course is get into a bread and butter type market to support the high end. But I agree whatever makes good business sense and gets market share is the way to go.
Certainly will be interesting to see what direction they take. As stated or not stated yet from folks there are some channels to pursue.
Lol and yes you can post your logo. Lol
The hardware is larger by revenue but both are independently profitable and justify themselves in addition to aiding the other. It's really pretty complimentary if you ask me and is one of P1's largest market advantages.
The reason we (largely the dealer channel) emphasize that customers should at least give C1 a thorough look for processing P1/Leaf raw files is that we find, over and over again, that C1 gets more out of those files. This should not shock you. The guys programming C1 are down the hall from, drink with, and go on vacations with, the guy who make the digital backs. They have access to the early prototypes and develop all new hardware alongside and in consultation with the software guys. They also have the strongest business interest in making the P1 files look as good as possible and naturally spend orders of magnitude more time fine tuning the algorithms and profiles of P1 backs than do the guys at LR. If Adobe came out with a camera (exceedingly unlikely but humor me) I'm sure they'd continue to support other cameras in LR, but would spend a little extra time fine tuning the support for their own camera.
Remember that the vast majority of the market could care less about the last 10% of image quality. That's what we're arguing about here. LR does a very good job with P1/Leaf files; it's just C1 (in our opinion) does a bit better. But since we serve the segment of the market that cares a great deal about that last 10% we tell people to at least try C1 for the P1 raws.
RED and Phase One sensors are remarkably close in cost. However, whilst Phase One are pretty much at the top of the stills market costwise, for video it would seem there is almost no upper limit.
I'm firmly of the view that what we've seen happen on every format below MFDB regarding convergence of video and stills cameras is inevitable for MF. Remember that RED once talked about introducing 645 and 617 sensors. Ok, so that was just marketing BS, but there's no reason to believe that it won't happen in time.
Additionally, in the LuLa interview, P1 made a very clear statement that they're looking at video, but wanted to wait until they had something groundbreaking to kick *** with.
An 8K sensor may well be just that product. Wide fast lenses would be a big challenge though.
It is an intriguing, even if possibly madly thought out in my head, tie-up.
(Should probably add that of course it doesn't have to be RED. There are a handful of similar companies out there that could be a good fit. These guys have probably the most impressive camera on the market right now... Phantom Flex4K )
Can't see Blackmagic market as a potential target though. Tough to differentiate at that price point, and neither Phase, nor RED/Arri, seem to be interested in bottom-feeding.
C1 has been out there for many years. It was my raw processing software of choice back when I started shooting with DSLRs back in 2003 (with a fuji s2 pro and then a Canon 10D). It was the best then and is about so today also. The only thing I do not like about it is the highlight/shadow tone mapping adjustments, they seem too harsh. I also prefer Lightroom for file management. But in regards to getting the best image quality out of RAW files C1 pro is about the best. The Camera Manufacturer's raw software gets really good quality also but they do not offer enough functionality to keep tweaking files. They are good as an initial step to generate a tiff and then photoshop or another software must be used right after. A lot of times I do that with C1 pro but C1 pro allows me to take the files a bit further before having to use another software, its not always a requirement. Of course, as always, YMMV.
Capture One, IMO is a good software, looking for just a few things to get ironed out, but may never happen. I also started using it in 2003 way back to 3.7.
History, would love to see that, permanent as LR has.
As Ken stated, the highlight adjustment can be a bit harsh
Please add noise reduction to local adjustments (in Vr6 slider was there but greyed out). Totally gone in Vr 7
Please add the ability to make color adjustment in overlapping local adjustments. Currently this does not work as the 2nd color adjustment layer will be corrupted.
I opened a case with CI and Phase One and was told this was just the it has to be by Phase One due to the ICC process within the local adjustment????? LR can do this with
In the past, I tended to develop D800e and D800 images in LR as I just did like the base color profile for the D800e in Capture One. Using the profile
for the IQ250 works much better for me, and I have started using C1 for Nikon again.
In the mulitple image view, the way 3.7.8 allowed you to place the images much better to me now they have to be in numerical order only. For tech
camera work the method of 3.7.8 to me is much better.