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The Future of Phase One

jlm

Workshop Member
can anyone make business sense of the concept that Phase should produce an intentionally 2nd tier back (leaf)?
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I think that they like to have the option of tiers - Leaf with less features but unique look and slightly cheaper at the same resolution - Phase with full feature set and all of the gadgets & punchier rendering at a higher cost. I believe he mentioned that there were established territory marketing and distribution reasons too.

Personally, I'd like to be able to apply the Leaf looks to my Phase One back. However, as it stands that's not ever going to happen without buying a Leaf derivative of the IQ chassis (Credo).

I fear that the 2nd tier comment may be taken out of the context of Phase/Leaf being the top of the MFDB pile, Phase backs #1, Leaf #2 and then presumably Hasselblad and the rest of the players.
 
A

.:Aleph:.

Guest
7) One good thing happened when Phase One overtook Leaf and one I do praise and appreciate very much: Captue One for Leaf RAW files. That ROCKS, thank you very much and well done!!! :). :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
The only bad thing about the Rolleiflex is that it doesn't support Phase One backs, and there are no plans on changing that.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I agree with your assessment about this ridiculous infomercial. Not once in the "interview" (really, a soapbox for P1 CEO) did the "interviewer" ask whether the money Silverfleet put up is actually sitting in the company and available for future product development or, instead, is sitting in the bank accounts of the stockholders who sold 60% of the company. However, you are wrong about who is calling the shots. Silverfleet is in control in a legal sense, but the key management is still calling the shots as a practical matter because Silverfleet, like most private equity investors, is not equipped to run the business. They bought the company based upon management's future business plan, and they won't jump in unless and until the the current management fails to execute the business plan.
Read your own statement.

Would Silverfleet (given their modus operandi / raison d'être) invest in P1 if that investment was going into pockets rather than into capital intensive near term growth?
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
3) Open platform? Phase One is NOT. Interestingly, in spite of the legal case against Hassy a few years back, P1 backs remain closed against AFi/Hy6 platform. Is that not tad "odd"???
Team Phase One backs are not closed against the Hy6 Platform.

Phase One owns Leaf and has brought it's IQ platform technology to the Hy6-mount Credo line.

A Hy6 Credo is basically an IQ back without sensor+, hard buttons, focus mask, or auto-horizon/pitch correction. Both products are made by Team Phase One. Does it matter to you if they slap the name Phase One or Leaf on the side?
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
can anyone make business sense of the concept that Phase should produce an intentionally 2nd tier back (leaf)?
Absolutely. Same idea as in many industries. Offer the same quality but with a few less features and charge less for it. That way you get the additional revenue from customers who find sufficient value in the additional features, and still get the revenue from the customers who do not.

It's the same reason a photographer offers their prints framed and unframed. It's the same picture either way.

Or a car manufacturer has several brands that share chassis and engine but with different finishing touches, comfort features, and handling features at a commensurate price premium.

You guys are all taking the negative view (and I have adopted it in the reply above). You can just as easily say it the other direction --- Leaf isn't a discount brand or a second-rate product, Phase One is just a premium brand above and beyond it. A Leaf Credo is, taken by itself the very best backs made today. It's feature list, speed, resolution offerings, LCD, tethering options, and range of compatibility and openness is better than anything from the competition. The Phase One branded Credo (aka the P1 IQ) adds a few features at a higher cost.

===

Not to mention that the Leaf guys still do the color for Leaf products with Leaf color legacy in heart/mind. We have customers who love the color from their Credo backs and would gladly pay more than an IQ for access to that color. Likewise we have customers who prefer the P1 color and wouldn't switch regardless of price premium.
 

steve_cor

Member
Doug,
If it doesn't matter if they slap the name Phase One or Leaf on the side, why is there a different temperature range for each? Eighteen degrees is a lot. Will a Credo back stop working above 104°F, but an IQ back will keep going?


Leaf Credo Operating conditions (32°–104°F)

Phase One IQ1 series Operating conditions (14º to 122ºF)


Thanks,

Steve.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Read your own statement.

Would Silverfleet (given their modus operandi / raison d'être) invest in P1 if that investment was going into pockets rather than into capital intensive near term growth?
Absolutely. That's what private equity firms do a ALL the time. Venture capital firms are completely different. The money put up is usually funded into the company to fund r&d and business expansion.
I have no issue with phase one's owners for pulling tens of millions out of the company. I think its great. I am an American. I do have an issue with deceiving the medium format digital community...us... by creating the impression that this was all about raising capital for business expansion and product development. If I am right, of course.
 

ondebanks

Member
3) Open platform? Phase One is NOT. Interestingly, in spite of the legal case against Hassy a few years back, P1 backs remain closed against AFi/Hy6 platform. Is that not tad "odd"??? :bugeyes:
Isn't "open platform" a property of the camera, rather than the back?

A camera like the Hy6 which can take multiple-vendor backs is an open platform. That does not mean that all back vendors have to support it, by providing a back in that particular interface. Nor does it mean that those vendors who choose not to provide a back in that particular interface have "closed" their system.

The original bad boys of the "closed platform" were Hasselblad, who with the H3 and subsequent models (until the H4X) made it impossible for other back vendors to support their back interface.

And that's the difference: Prohibition of choice makes a closed system. Not availing of choice is still an open system. Phase still have the choice to support the Hy6 directly with IQ backs. Maybe they will, maybe they won't and will let the Leaf line suffice.

Ray
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Team Phase One backs are not closed against the Hy6 Platform.

Phase One owns Leaf and has brought it's IQ platform technology to the Hy6-mount Credo line.

A Hy6 Credo is basically an IQ back without sensor+, hard buttons, focus mask, or auto-horizon/pitch correction. Both products are made by Team Phase One. Does it matter to you if they slap the name Phase One or Leaf on the side?

Just LOL's mate - if you did anymore twists and distortions, you might like to try out for the National Gymnastics team...

As for Leica chips being inferior to XYand Z - I can't judge because XY & Z backs don't fit in the Leica..and Leica lenses dont work on plastic fantastic mamiya bodies

i'll stick to Leica fank you very much for my SLR experience and leave the cavemen types to their H1 and Mamiya crapola.

As for tech shooting...again just LOL @ internet experts who are clueless about matching lenses to backs to camera movements and go ahead and buy themselves elephant guns ..because ..well because..the salesman told me so...

Just LOL's..
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Absolutely. That's what private equity firms do a ALL the time. Venture capital firms are completely different. The money put up is usually funded into the company to fund r&d and business expansion.
I have no issue with phase one's owners for pulling tens of millions out of the company. I think its great. I am an American. I do have an issue with deceiving the medium format digital community...us... by creating the impression that this was all about raising capital for business expansion and product development. If I am right, of course.
Howard,

You might want to check out the difference between growth capital vs venture capital or leveraged buy out ... There are distinctly different impacts on what the principals in the company can do and how. By all of the descriptions I've heard this is a case of a PE assisting with growth capital, either directly or by helping facilitate borrowing to raise cash. It would be naive to think that the principals wouldn't want to exchange some of their equity for cash but that isn't the same thing at all as a fire sale and retirement to the Bahamas.

I work for a company in the midst of a very similar private equity group buyout and whilst I don't own the company I do work with the executive management and they can't go anywhere. There are plenty of more experienced folks here who can explain the realities of these transactions as it's not as simple as a cash out bonanza (well unless you get acquired or public).
 

Anders_HK

Member
Team Phase One backs are not closed against the Hy6 Platform.

Phase One owns Leaf and has brought it's IQ platform technology to the Hy6-mount Credo line.

A Hy6 Credo is basically an IQ back without sensor+, hard buttons, focus mask, or auto-horizon/pitch correction. Both products are made by Team Phase One. Does it matter to you if they slap the name Phase One or Leaf on the side?
Doug,

What I wrote was that P1 backs are closed to Hy6. To say P1 team is open is indeed complete different. Leaf is open, P1 is not. As one could imply from what you wrote, P1 could easily change that because Credos are indeed mechanically much same as IQ backs. Adding rotating sensor would require more perhaps.

Would I personally care if it says P1 or Leaf on back when they both are essentially same internal (Credo vs IQ). Yes, I would since I prefer Leaf files, Leaf interface, and Leaf support (not Mamiya). However, I would also expect the internals to be more different to point of giving me in line what I know as Leaf files in qualities that I am used to from Aptus and the AFiII range, and to be an improvement beyond and to them. My brief encounter of Credo 80 showed me not to be so.

Just my being frank :).

Best regards,
Anders
 

tjv

Active member
Amen to that.

Finally found the time to watch this earlier today.

This cosy (and that's putting it mildly) relationship between LuLa and Phase One is not beneficial to any party - least of all those who hand over hard earned cash for the product.

Publishing fawning advertorials such as this is, frankly, a disgrace.
 

Ken_R

New member
FWIW, Silverfleets slogan is "we buy to build". So industry consolidation is part of their M.O. So I would expect them with PhaseOne to negotiate some mergers and acquisitions and make PhaseOne stronger. Then after they have done that they might sell. The question is which smaller companies or acquirable companies are within the group's reach today. Companies that have complementary products and technology to PhaseOne.

So I would not worry about Silverfleet just milking the current PhaseOne product line to death and not do anything to grow the company. That makes no sense.
 

markymarkrb

New member
P1, please just build me a 617 CMOS sensor (2xD800e sensors side by side if you have to) that can fit within a 90mm image circle and I will go in peace. Stitching photos at the beach is terrible.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I did like the fact that the first name that came to Henrik WAS Alpa though. It says a lot about who they consider important or market leaders in the technical field. (and I have no disrespect to Cambo/Arca/Linhof/Sinar/Silvestri etc - all good solutions too).
 

ondebanks

Member
P1, please just build me a 617 CMOS sensor (2xD800e sensors side by side if you have to) that can fit within a 90mm image circle and I will go in peace. Stitching photos at the beach is terrible.
There will always be a gap between abutted sensors. To fill that gap requires a second exposure at a shifted or re-pointed position...so you're back to square 1: stitching! :facesmack:

This is normal with widefield, multi-chip astronomical cameras.

Ray
 
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