The Future of Phase One

[stephengilbert]

Kevin Raber of Luminous Landscape interviews Henrik Håkonsson of Phase One: PhaseOneFuture_March2014

Håkonsson is somewhat opaque (e.g., Q: Should we be buying tickets for Fotokina this year? A: Many manufacturers will be showing interesting products, etc.), but it's probably worth looking at.

 

[kdphotography]

WWwwhat? No consumer camera division? No wood hand-grips or leather wrapped camera bodies?

I'm so outta here.

:ROTFL:

 

[docmoore]

Hoping for the rare one-off Bubinga wood with platinum fittings.....

Bob

 

[Don Libby]

(Someone had to say it..) exotic virgin bovine scrotum in designer colors

 

[docmoore]

Don,

Surprised that a virgin bovine scrotum would cover LF and MF ....

Must be limited to non-Temperate Zones...

Although historically the majority of these exotics did not sell well in the Nordic climes.....


Bob

 

[stephengilbert]

"Someone had to say it."

And who would we expect that someone to be? :angel:

 

[Sharokin]

WWwwhat? No consumer camera division? No wood hand-grips or leather wrapped camera bodies?

I'm so outta here.

:ROTFL:

Isn't the DF a pimped out Mamiya 645?

 

[Bob]

I likes the arca, but found the DF to be just a flurry of disappointments.
They might be happy to play in the tech camera field, but if they want to do a dslr, then they damed well ought to design a competant one.
-bob

 

[GrahamWelland]

He hinted at the new camera being built from the ground up as a digital solution so hopefully that means no Mamiya 645 DNA.

Btw, wasn't the Leica S designed from scratch as a purely digital platform too?

 

[JorisV]

He hinted at the new camera being built from the ground up as a digital solution so hopefully that means no Mamiya 645 DNA.

Btw, wasn't the Leica S designed from scratch as a purely digital platform too?

I was thinking the same thing…

He might not know the Leica S exists.

Perhaps that is why C1 does not support it...

 

[Bob]

No Mamiya dan would be a good start, but I am waiting to see what they actually do.
My patience ran out about a year ago.
-bob

 

[Ken_R]

I was thinking the same thing…

He might not know the Leica S exists.

Perhaps that is why C1 does not support it...

To him the Leica is no competition since it has an inferior sensor compared to every back PhaseOne makes.

The Leica S is an excellent body and amazing lenses looking for a sensor. Leica should put the sony 50mp CMOS sensor in the Leica S right now.

I think the interview was good and somewhat productive. We can expect some new lenses and a camera body from Phase very soon. He hinted that the newer lenses are going to be for portrait / wedding use which leads me to believe they are going to be in the 80-150mm range. That is a range well covered in the phase lens product line. It is weakest in the wide angle range. I would love to see a 24mm with excellent image quality that is also easy to filter. Maybe a 30mm also.

 

[JorisV]

To him the Leica is no competition since it has an inferior sensor compared to every back PhaseOne makes.

The Leica S is an excellent body and amazing lenses looking for a sensor. Leica should put the sony 50mp CMOS sensor in the Leica S right now.

I think the interview was good and somewhat productive. We can expect some new lenses and a camera body from Phase very soon. He hinted that the newer lenses are going to be for portrait / wedding use which leads me to believe they are going to be in the 80-150mm range. That is a range well covered in the phase lens product line. It is weakest in the wide angle range. I would love to see a 24mm with excellent image quality that is also easy to filter. Maybe a 30mm also.

Leica has always done their own thing and IMO they surely are not going to put the Sony sensor in their camera just because everybody else does. Besides that I also think that not necessarily every MF camera needs to be turned into a high MP camera that can only be shot with a tripod and that is only suitable for landscape, architecture, product and reproduction. The strength of the Leica is precisely that it can be used in a rather candid way. Going towards too many MP would potentially take away that strength.

 

[ondebanks]

To him the Leica is no competition since it has an inferior sensor compared to every back PhaseOne makes.

Be careful with those sweeping absolutes. The Leica actually has a better Kodak sensor than the previous-generation Kodak sensors in the P45+ (still a current P1 product) and P30+ (only recently discontinued).

And the Leica does cleaner long exposures better than any of the P1 Dalsa backs, with the exception of the IQ260. (It would be even better if only Leica would eliminate their stupid long exposure upper limit!)

Ray

 

[Paul2660]

My take away is pretty much, "as expected". The real interview needs to be with Silverfleet, they own the company. The video to was no new news just some hyperbole feel good talk. We might have something by Photokina, a real new camera body, something other than the DF+ a 4995.00 camera body with 1 AF point and overall design from over 5 years ago or more. I get a bit tired of all the "feel good" type interviews and videos. Silverfleet is out for a profit, and they will call the shots, make the plays, they own the company now. Anyone who for some reason doesn't want to believe that can keep on drinking the koolaid.

The time for this was a while back, maybe a day or so after the announcement. Maybe Phase One, could have looked up all of the Value add owners and sent out a letter, a statement, anything. Maybe a phone call, to photographers that been investing with the former Phase One company for the past 6 years? Surly the former Phase One has some type of list?

So far SilverFleet/Phase One has done well with the IQ250 in getting out the first MF CMOS camera. They are shipping a product that seems to work great with a DF+ and standard designed lenses, and OK with a tech camera solution. They did their homework it seems and have a product that can be shot/tested/and compared to.

The other two players:

Hassi, well they finally announced theirs with a lower price, and with lower features. NO live view (pretty much standard with any CMOS camera, but maybe with firmware in the future). A LCD with the same resolution as a Fuji X-E1, (no upgradeable in the future). A chip that can easily take 1 hour exposures (we can get 12 minutes). If I was a Silverfleet/Phase One/dealer I would love that conversation. 28K? I can't imagine trying to zoom into 100% from a 50MP CMOS chip on a LCD with that low a resolution. It's pretty worthless on the X-E1 and it's only 16MP. Guess what, it's the same Sony chip, we all know what it can do and so far Hassi as announced quite a bit less function.

Pentax, so far they are playing the game just like they did with the 645D. (which was probably talked about 3 years before it finally shipped and when it did the magic window was missed) No wonder Silverfleet/Phase One is not too concerned. The 645DII was at WPPI, or was it? Did it power on or did it not? Did it have a price or did it not? Will it be released in 2014 or maybe 2015 (which by the time will be a bit late as maybe even Canon will have a new 40 to 50MP chip, or maybe not). Now is the time Pentax.

Paul C

 

[Ken_R]

Be careful with those sweeping absolutes. The Leica actually has a better Kodak sensor than the previous-generation Kodak sensors in the P45+ (still a current P1 product) and P30+ (only recently discontinued).

And the Leica does cleaner long exposures better than any of the P1 Dalsa backs, with the exception of the IQ260. (It would be even better if only Leica would eliminate their stupid long exposure upper limit!)

Ray

I used a Leica S recently and compared to the current crop of IQ backs (I was referring to the current models not past models) the sensor just feels a tad dated. The camera and lenses themselves are superb and the sensor is competent if used right but at the limits it is not as good as the newer dalsa sensors and obviously not as good as the Sony 50MP Cmos sensor.

The Leica sensor is not horrible by any means, beautiful images can be made with it. But if you are the person that constantly pushes the technical limits of the digital cameras you use then you are better served by other digital cameras. That is all.

It is a shame because otherwise the Leica S (and the S2) are awesome cameras.

 

[Anders_HK]

Gents,

Interesting to read above posts...

Allow me to first state clear, that Phase One vs. Leaf back is in my view with much respect a personal preference. I believe it should remain so of equal level also under P1.

Is it??? :facesmack: ...

1) To hear lead of P1 say Leaf is 2nd best seem arrogant, wrong and misinformed. Is this really how Leaf is viewed and cared by P1, into making Leaf a second quality brand??? oke:

2) Having viewed results from Credo 80 I am not impressed and am of view it did not measure up to my AFiII-12 (AptusII for Hy6, 80MP). Never mind that I also find the AFi to look also cooler on the camera... Important to my eye, the colors of Credo are significantly less appealing and like bleached, and files significant less sharp. Now this may be personal view and preference, but in fact AFiII-12 made me prematurely give up on the colors of, and on, slide film because of the very pleasing rendering of colors, fine gradation of colors, and the ability to render highlight transitions in post. I do not experience this with Credo 80, nor did I with my prior Aptus 65. If I understand correct, Credo internals are identical to IQ. Thus in my view, they do need to distinguish Leaf into what it was with the AFi/Aptus lines of stellar colors, sharpness, making it more into ehhh... Leaf. :thumbs:

3) Open platform? Phase One is NOT. Interestingly, in spite of the legal case against Hassy a few years back, P1 backs remain closed against AFi/Hy6 platform. Is that not tad "odd"??? :bugeyes:

4) Interesting read of the complaints in above posts of DF+. I gave up on AFDIII to point of totally unhappy with my Mamiya 645 system for Aptus 65. I switched to Hy6 system. What a difference. Tolerances are more precise since the camera was designed for digital (though also works with film). Lenses are sharp as . Hy6 was also a work jointly by Leaf, Sinar and F&H (Rolleiflex) and is a plain joy to work with. Should it not be, that if P1 really want to be and provide the best, they should support the arguably best camera out there with P1 backs??? Perhaps even add DHW as joint partner?? This is interesting also from point of what I heard the rights to Hy6 are owned by Leaf, thus indirectly by P1... :facesmack: :facesmack:

5) Leaf Aptus/AFi display remains largest still... why is the Credo display not same classic Leaf size 6x7cm??? :facesmack: Iphone interface in spite, I prefer my larger display (also rotating sensor is a must for Hy6, tilt display preferred)...

6) Reason I dropped Mamiya 645 AFDIII system was due to not finding it acceptable for tolerances, unacceptable support/repair from factory in Japan (do not start me on my old LuLa post 'ZD has Problem'...)... thus I find the Mamiya-Leaf branding as tad a marriage between a bad and the stellar Leaf, thus to dislike and even attempt at degrading the Leaf brand. Smart marketing??? :facesmack:

7) One good thing happened when Phase One overtook Leaf and one I do praise and appreciate very much: Captue One for Leaf RAW files. That ROCKS, thank you very much and well done!!! . :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

In other words, my 2c worth of frank opinion are tad mixed... Yet may I dare to be bold and ask, should perhaps P1 step down with feet on ground?

 

[gerald.d]

Finally found the time to watch this earlier today.

This cosy (and that's putting it mildly) relationship between LuLa and Phase One is not beneficial to any party - least of all those who hand over hard earned cash for the product.

Publishing fawning advertorials such as this is, frankly, a disgrace.

 

[.:Aleph:.]

I used a Leica S recently and compared to the current crop of IQ backs (I was referring to the current models not past models) the sensor just feels a tad dated. The camera and lenses themselves are superb and the sensor is competent if used right but at the limits it is not as good as the newer dalsa sensors and obviously not as good as the Sony 50MP Cmos sensor.

The Leica sensor is not horrible by any means, beautiful images can be made with it. But if you are the person that constantly pushes the technical limits of the digital cameras you use then you are better served by other digital cameras. That is all.

It is a shame because otherwise the Leica S (and the S2) are awesome cameras.

This seems to be an different view than Nick Rains's:

I have been using the S2 for over two years and can attest to the S-System lenses being just stunning - better than anything I have ever used which includes, Hasselblad, Fujinon, Rodenstock, Schneider, Pentax 67, Mamiya, Olympus, Canon, Nikon etc etc. The 120 macro is crazy sharp with a superb bokeh - I'd love to put it on some sort of hi-res MDB like an IQ280 to see what it can really do.

One thing to consider regarding cost is that they are virtually future proof - the 37.5MB sensor in the S2 and S does not come close to doing justice to the lenses' resolving abilities. Anything they might bring out with a higher pixel count will work with these lenses, and they are built to last too. I'd wouldn't be surprised if they would resolve fully on a sensor of over 120MP.

I am still waiting to get my hands on the new 24mm, in fact any of the new stuff. It's slow arriving in Australia, the M240 has only just arrived but I expect to get my grubby paws on the new toys in the next few weeks with a bit of luck.

The Online Photographer: The Leica S System

 

[hcubell]

My take away is pretty much, "as expected". The real interview needs to be with Silverfleet, they own the company. The video to was no new news just some hyperbole feel good talk. We might have something by Photokina, a real new camera body, something other than the DF+ a 4995.00 camera body with 1 AF point and overall design from over 5 years ago or more. I get a bit tired of all the "feel good" type interviews and videos. Silverfleet is out for a profit, and they will call the shots, make the plays, they own the company now. Anyone who for some reason doesn't want to believe that can keep on drinking the koolaid.

The time for this was a while back, maybe a day or so after the announcement. Maybe Phase One, could have looked up all of the Value add owners and sent out a letter, a statement, anything. Maybe a phone call, to photographers that been investing with the former Phase One company for the past 6 years? Surly the former Phase One has some type of list?

So far SilverFleet/Phase One has done well with the IQ250 in getting out the first MF CMOS camera. They are shipping a product that seems to work great with a DF+ and standard designed lenses, and OK with a tech camera solution. They did their homework it seems and have a product that can be shot/tested/and compared to.

The other two players:

Hassi, well they finally announced theirs with a lower price, and with lower features. NO live view (pretty much standard with any CMOS camera, but maybe with firmware in the future). A LCD with the same resolution as a Fuji X-E1, (no upgradeable in the future). A chip that can easily take 1 hour exposures (we can get 12 minutes). If I was a Silverfleet/Phase One/dealer I would love that conversation. 28K? I can't imagine trying to zoom into 100% from a 50MP CMOS chip on a LCD with that low a resolution. It's pretty worthless on the X-E1 and it's only 16MP. Guess what, it's the same Sony chip, we all know what it can do and so far Hassi as announced quite a bit less function.

Pentax, so far they are playing the game just like they did with the 645D. (which was probably talked about 3 years before it finally shipped and when it did the magic window was missed) No wonder Silverfleet/Phase One is not too concerned. The 645DII was at WPPI, or was it? Did it power on or did it not? Did it have a price or did it not? Will it be released in 2014 or maybe 2015 (which by the time will be a bit late as maybe even Canon will have a new 40 to 50MP chip, or maybe not). Now is the time Pentax.

Paul C

I agree with your assessment about this ridiculous infomercial. Not once in the "interview" (really, a soapbox for P1 CEO) did the "interviewer" ask whether the money Silverfleet put up is actually sitting in the company and available for future product development or, instead, is sitting in the bank accounts of the stockholders who sold 60% of the company. However, you are wrong about who is calling the shots. Silverfleet is in control in a legal sense, but the key management is still calling the shots as a practical matter because Silverfleet, like most private equity investors, is not equipped to run the business. They bought the company based upon management's future business plan, and they won't jump in unless and until the the current management fails to execute the business plan.