Selling the S2 = stupidity?

[jaree]

I heard the message loud and clear: I need to stop making excuses about the size/weight , start using the equipment more and ramp up my skills. The vote is overwhelmingly clear. I realize that this is a personal preference in the end, but it helps to hear from folks who are more experienced than I am and actually own the equipment, so I am grateful for the feedback that everyone has given.

Eeraj

 

[Paratom]

I heard the message loud and clear: I need to stop making excuses about the size/weight , start using the equipment more and ramp up my skills. The vote is overwhelmingly clear. I realize that this is a personal preference in the end, but it helps to hear from folks who are more experienced than I am and actually own the equipment, so I am grateful for the feedback that everyone has given.

Eeraj

you made your choice when you decided to post in the MF forum over posting in the Sony forum

in the end you posted yourself that you like the IQ from the S2 and that you can clearly see the advantages.
I think weight is overrated these days-I sometimes carry my daughter on the shoulder - when she leaves my shoulders the S2 feels like a feather

 

[mmbma]

Sell the S2 and lenses. you can always buy them back.

Buy three of the new Sigma DPms. they'll produce files as good as the S2.

 

[fotografz]

Ah, if that were only true.

Maybe the Easter Bunny will leave a few in my basket this year.

 

[jaree]

Sigmas are great and I used the DP3 earlier (rented), but I never got used to their weird file format or the processing workflow needed for them. A shame as otherwise I found the output stellar, though I would say S2 is still different. I mean the look. Give me DNG file format or some other thatn LR can recognize out of the camera and I am in.

 

[tsjanik]

I don't have an S2, but I do have a 645D, which has a similar Kodak sensor. The files are amazing. I considered a D800E, but why carry something almost as heavy as the 645D for almost the same quality? The Sony is tempting and I may succumb, but I will certainly keep the 645D.

 

[darr]

Sell the S2 and lenses. you can always buy them back.

Buy three of the new Sigma DPms. they'll produce files as good as the S2.

I shoot an ALPA Max, but I also shoot all three of the Sigma DPM little guys. My ALPA stays close to the studio and when I travel, I take the Sigmas and a small tripod. I am glad I bought them, as I was looking for a smaller alternative with exceptional quality and I found what I was looking for. Yes, their post processing program is slow moving, so I just import them as TIFs from the Sigma program and work with them in LR or C1. The files produced by the Foveon sensor and the matched lenses are stunning.

 

[ryc]

I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
3a. Support
3b. Cost
3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
3e. S2 technology is old.
3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

Good luck with decision.

 

[Paratom]

I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
3a. Support
3b. Cost
3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
3e. S2 technology is old.
3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

Good luck with decision.

Hi there,
IMO it is hard to say what is overpaying and what is not.

The S system has higher prices than DSLRs from Nikon or Canon. However you also get certain advantages. First the advantages of larger sensor which also has influence on the look (transition betweeb sharp focused plane and background for example, excellent color specially skin tones), you get even better lenses. For example the S lenses I own vignette by far less than most of the comparable high quality 35mm lenses I own. They are also exceptional good even wide open.
Maybe the Opus is an exception - I have never tried one, but have some other very nice 35mm lenses like the Sigma 35/1.4 ART (maybe the best of the bunch), several Leica M lenses, the 21/2.8 Zeiss for Canon etc. and I would say the Leica S are best - visibly.
Besides price there is also the question how things hold their value. The S-bodies - if you buy them new do loose value pretty fast (like other MF-cameras as well), but the lenses are pretty stable in value.

Also today there is also a good used market for S gear- if you buy used you wont loose much money.

It is a luxury to be able to afford such a system, but I believe you also get added value from this system.

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

Hi there,
IMO it is hard to say what is overpaying and what is not.

The S system has higher prices than DSLRs from Nikon or Canon. However you also get certain advantages. First the advantages of larger sensor which also has influence on the look (transition betweeb sharp focused plane and background for example, excellent color specially skin tones), you get even better lenses. For example the S lenses I own vignette by far less than most of the comparable high quality 35mm lenses I own. They are also exceptional good even wide open.
Maybe the Opus is an exception - I have never tried one, but have some other very nice 35mm lenses like the Sigma 35/1.4 ART (maybe the best of the bunch), several Leica M lenses, the 21/2.8 Zeiss for Canon etc. and I would say the Leica S are best - visibly.
Besides price there is also the question how things hold their value. The S-bodies - if you buy them new do loose value pretty fast (like other MF-cameras as well), but the lenses are pretty stable in value.

Also today there is also a good used market for S gear- if you buy used you wont loose much money.

It is a luxury to be able to afford such a system, but I believe you also get added value from this system.

The Pentax 645DII is very likely to be $10k, the Hasselblad 50c is $27.5k and the Phase IQ150 is $35k; this leaves Leica in a spot between the Pentax and Hass, which would be $19k, I think it's a very plausible and competent price for what the camera features.

The Leica S2 really was overpriced at $23k at the time, especially since there were practically no lenses to use on it, and other systems offered more flexibility. The ergonomics and lens lineup are mostly perfect as-is, they just need to bring in 2014 technology and set a lower price.

As for comparisons to 35mm... well... I suppose that if the idea of buying a camera that costs as much as a luxury car has crossed a person's mind, they probably weren't in the market for something inexpensive in the first place. People who actually want and can buy this thing likely aren't getting aneurisms over how expensive the S is, it's just us photography nerds.

 

[fotografz]

I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
3a. Support
3b. Cost
3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
3e. S2 technology is old.
3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

Good luck with decision.

I think this is a good counter balance to all the posts in support of keeping the S2. Reality checks are always worth mentioning.

Of course, don't expect your opinion to go unchallenged … and we must remember there are no absolutes in any creative endeavor, only opinions.

Beside, I'm snowed in and it is bitter cold out, so I have the time

1) I agree. :thumbs:

2) Overpriced compared to what? I lost a lot more on my Hasselblad H gear than I would if I sold the S gear. Compared to a D800E? Well, to buy that argument, you have to believe 35mm is the same visual interpretation as MF provides, and subscribe to Bean-Counter ideas about creative matters … which I don't. Sorry.

Beasides, Bean Counter mentalities usually do not fair well in any creative endeavor. Whatever it costs to satisfy your personal creative vision is usually worth it … if you can afford it. If not, then you can make bean counter arguments to the contrary . Bean counters will talk you out of almost anything given the chance. It is their job.

3a) I had Nikon … extremely bad service experiences, the horror stories I could tell you … and now they are squeezing out the independent repair people:thumbdown:, so good luck when the warranty runs out. Every service experience with my S2 has been stellar (don't confuse M service with the separate S service system). Representative of everyone's experience? Don't know. Don't care. Horrible from Nikon, Great from Leica.

3b) Duh. Well, yeah. Ya pay to play … that should be Leica's theme line.

3c) Opinion fostered by the "pixel peeper generation" … Otis may be better for full-filling many people's opinion … but they don't make MFD AF lenses, so it's a moot point to me. To use Otis, you have to use a Canon or Nikon 35mm, and to get AF you mostly have to use Nikon lenses … no thanks, don't like them.

3d) Weird arguments. :wtf: A Leica S2 isn't $28K. Anyone that wants to buy mine for $28K please e-mail me :ROTFL:. If my S2 breaks I wouldn't toss it in the trash, I'd repair it. If it was a total loss then insurance would replace it. BTW, if I want FF 36 meg for cheap, I can get a A7R for $2K … but it is still a 35mm Bean Counter argument, and not a larger sensor and all that entails. If you don't see the difference between 35mm rendering and that of larger sensor cameras, that's your problem, not mine.

3e) Yep. So are a number of cameras and digital backs … yet somehow, people keep making amazing images with them. Except in extreme applications, the technology merry-go-round designed to keep everyone buying the latest greatest shouldn't be confused with actually making photographs. Digital reached the point of diminishing returns a few year ago, but the upgrade mentality from its' infancy remains unabated.

3f) The money you save by buying something that satisfies your personal creative sensibilities and keeping it despite all the rational horse-crap designed to grift you into selling something, then buying something else, is what will really go a long ways.:thumbup:

3g) In your opinion. My photos have to satisfy me first … if they don't, then other people's opinion is irrelevant. Left to the masses, most can't tell a cell phone shot from a D800, because everything is squashed down to a sub 1 meg jpeg in sRGB color space, and posted on Twitter, etc.

3h) Sony may do a 54 meg sensor. So? Maybe Leica will do a 60 meg CMOSIS sensor, or 80meg, or 100 meg. Unfortunately "Maybe Gear" has never taken a good photo. Doesn't matter to me anyway, I suspect the Leica S2 or S with CCD sensor may be the last S that'll satisfy my personal creative evaluation … and I hope a lot of others go for the latest-greatest S, so I can get a S (type 006) cheap to add to the S2 I already have :clap:

IMHO, YMMV, etc.

- Marc

 

[RVB]

I Think everyone here is being influenced by passion and the "S2" which for many is out of reach. I use to be invested heavily into Leica ta one time to the point where it got ridiculous. So as an ex Leica junkie I am speaking from my experience and without any emotional attachment to gear.

1. There is no doubt the S2 glass is amazing. Can't deny that.
2. The S2 is so ridiculously over priced it's not even funny. And then they have the extra fee for the added extras like scratch resistant glass, warranty etc... all things that should already be covered by a camera pushing the 30K range.
3. Sad but true, I would take a D800E over the S2 for several valid reasons.
3a. Support
3b. Cost
3c. Zeiss Otus line and new upcoming Otus lenses. And yes the Otus is better than any Leica lens no matter how hard it is to accept for someone who spent a fortune on Leica glass. but the facts are undeniable.
3d. D800 breaks, your out 3k and can replace it probably the same day. S2 breaks, your out 28k, and good luck having it serviced and finding one easily.
3e. S2 technology is old.
3f. Th money you save from S2 can go a long ways. However, for someone who can afford an S2 and the line up of lenses, I don't think that is a problem. I Thank God I can afford such luxuries in life when so many cannot. But at the same time, I don't like over paying regardless of how much one makes.
3g. The people you show your pictures to cannot tell the difference between an S2 image and a D800E image
3h. Hang tight, Sony may introduce a 54mp camera soon and with the right glass, it will be killer for a fraction of a fraction of the S2 price

However, the bottom line is what makes you happy! I just dumped all my high end glass including the Otus along with a couple of D4 cameras and switched to a Sony A99 with all the Zeiss auto focus lenses. Guess what, I never looked back and I had lots of money left over.

Good luck with decision.

The lack of leaf shutters rule out the sony/Nikon option for many people,its a smaller sensor and the Leica S has a fantastic viewfinder.

The Otus is excellent and maybe as good as S glass but it's manual focus only and again has no CS and its as heavy as leica's S120 macro and in the same price range as the S70 (which has the same fov and A.F and optional CS)

Its not a cheap body but you buy it for the System and it's no more expensive than the Phase or Hassy equivalents.

Another point is that as things stand the D800 sensor already over samples most of the available glass so 56mp will be hard to justify but the S sensor's larger size and superb glass will accommodate a lot more resolution that will be fully utilised by the lenses!

Rob

 

[craigrudlin]

There is more than mere megapixels and MTF resolution charts. Lenses
and apparently the way raw data is recorded and "processed" by the
sensor and its associated electronics, have specific characteristics that
some refer to as "draw." Some lenses are extremely "sharp" in terms of
resolution, but yield a "sterile" image. Others may not be as "sharp" but the image has a sense of presence, or three dimensionality, or warmth, or "character." (The terminology varies.) I have a D800E and a S2. Nikon lenses and leica lenses do not "draw" the same. I have had many observers comment that my prints from the Leica "have a three dimensionality" such that they can "touch and feel" the textures; I have not had the same said of the Nikon images, processed "the same." Zeiss has yet another "draw" that many describe as more saturated and more contrast.

I do "fine art" photography, mostly urban decay and intimate landscapes. The "draw" of the lens makes a difference.

Alas, I cannot paint (which is probably why I got into photography), but
can appreciate that there is a difference in various types of brushes, and certainly between a brush and a palette knife-- both can put oil on canvas, but the look, the feel, will certainly be different!! It is the same
with lenses and apparently sensors (with their electronics).

Thus we must all consider how we want our final image to appear and that should help decide which camera, lenses, etc. to use -- just as the painter selects acrylic vs oil vs watercolor and brush vs knife.

 

[ryc]

Marc, I accept your counter points except the one where you state its not 28k

Amazon.com: Leica S2-P 37.5MP Camera Body with 3-Inch LCD with Sapphire LCD Cover [BODY ONLY]: Camera & Photo

Anyway, Like I said, ultimate decision si up to owner not us.

And if money is not an issue, you can always get the Hassy version of the Sony A99 for 11k

 

[jaree]

> support:
My service experience with Leica has been stellar. After buying the S2, sold to me as Leica CPO, from a dealer in FL who shall remain nameless, I noticed a few marks on the body. I sent it to Leica NJ who sent to Solms Germany for evaluation. At first their response was "heavy impact damage" and implied that I must have dropped it. Long story short, after a few emails they decided to pick up the tab for about $3,500 worth of service. I got a loaner S2 and they turned my S2 into as new condition. They also checked all 4 lenses free of cost and shipping to Germany was on their dime.

cost:

1. Seriously, who pays retail for this stuff?
2. Anyone looking at S2 or Hassy has already passed the cost considerations. Now there are pros, who will evaluate the ROI and that is perfectly fine. For me, cost was out of the equation as I was buying used and most of the depreciation has been factored in already.

I agree it is a personal decision in the end, but it is certainly helpful to hear from folks who know a lot more than I do and this is where this forum shines - no nonsense advise. How do you put a value on the build quality and the feel of the damn'ed S lenses? There are no rational ways to quantify these things. I am pretty ruthless in culling the equipment, but this is another story...

I am glad I didn't post this on that other big photo forum in the Sony section!

-- Eeraj

 

[OliverM]

In the past years, I have taken as many shots with medium format and dslr.
95% of the pictures I keep watching were made with MF.
I took many pictures in conditions where MF wouldn't have worked, but I must admit I don't look much at them afterwards.

I had canon 5d2, Nikon D3x and Sigma DP2m.
The sony A7r gives more : very good colors and dynamic range, very good optical quality with the 55mm. It is much lighter. Very easy to use, none of the issues we read everywhere has any importance to me.

The issue is that is is so convenient to use and delivers so good images that my first reaction was to sell the MF, make travel life easier and think about what to do with the MF money.
Then I looked at the images made with MF (Sinar, Contax, Alpa, Phase) ... hmm this is still a different world. Colors, contrast, natural look.

So as long as I can afford keeping both I will do.
There will be another risk : be lazy, leave MF home.
That will only depend on passion : if I keep sufficient passion in photography, both in the process of making pictures and watching results, I will make the efforts of using MF.

I will travel with 2 sets :
- Alpa + 35mm for landscapes
- Sony with 55mm for everything

And I will keep my Contax + 80 & 120mm and its Sinar back for portraits.

I should have sticked to the Contax for everything, more than enough, overall best camera of all. I regret I tried the addictive Alpa, and now I bought the sony-for-lazy camera.

So my advice from someone who spent too much time looking at other cameras while I had a fantastic one : keep focused on photography not material, don't become lazy, as much as you can afford and are passionate enough.
The day you have other priorities and still want a very good camera, buy the sony.

Marc, 23 days since I bought a camera

 

[Steve Hendrix]

I like Robb Williamson's post.

Regardless whether you need to improve skills or just gain more familiarity with the camera, I do feel that sometimes there are knee-jerk decisions, responses to a newly purchased camera/lens. Sometimes we just need to make ourselves use the camera more and spend more time with it, I mean a lot more. We need to use it enough, so that we have shot with it so many times and in so many situations, that the image quality advantages (if they exist) are clear.

For many, that is the bottom line - if you and the camera don't feel bonded, sometimes that process can help with that bonding. If the results aren't there, then that validates your feeling there isn't a bond to begin with.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

 

[tjv]

If I had a Leica S and set of lenses, you'd have to cut my arms off to make me put it down!

The Zeiss Otus looks like an amazing lens but as others have said, it's manual focus only and heavy, heavy, heavy. Also, Zeiss may be bringing out others in the Otus line, but until they're on the shelves and with a proven performance record, they're little more than rumour.

The few times I've demoed an S2 I was truly amazed. It'd be my perfect camera if it weren't for the 3:2 format and lack of wide and normal TS lenses. As things stand, I need movements. I could deal with the format easily, but can't give up on tilt and shift.

Also, an eager rep once submerged a demo S2 and 70mm lens in water in front of me to prove its weather resistance. I nearly cried when he did it, but it came out perfect. Do that with the competition!

 

[Bob]

I did like many S2 imagers, but never "clicked" with the system despite trying it several times.
Sort of like buying a dog.
-bob

 

[jaree]

So what would be the cat equivalent?!