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Help Selecting an Alpa setup.

young'ee

New member
Ok, so after a bit of cool off time (24 hours) and a long long drive to the back of nowhere (gives great thinking time), i've had time to think this through a bit.

I'm definitely going for an Alpa. Now what should the setup be?

Needs are;

1/ability to do panorama stitching - this is number one above all else.

2/ability to try out as many lens combinations as possible - old and new but have a definite love of old lenses and want to try adapting what i can to a body.

3/attach different MFDB's - interested in trying Leaf color and P1 color and very recent 5.3 micron backs and old fat pixel 9 micron backs - in short, want to try different digital sensor "looks" as well as lens "looks"

The biggest priority is to be able to create the best panoramas i can. Not sure of the aspect ratio yet - will need to play around with the camera when i get it and see what works for me.


I am smitten with the FPS but this camera does not stitch. It does let me mount many lenses and i am very keen to collect old lenses to try out. I would also like to get a set of technically perfect high res lenses that are traditionally used on tech cameras. So any and all lenses are being considered.

So given all that i am considering which Alpa cameras to go with.

I will def go for an FPS - no question on that.

But should i go for an 12 STC or an 12 XY?

Upon reading specs i see ;

The STC has 18mm of movement L and R.

The XY has 25mm of L and R movement AS well as +45mm and -25mm of vertical movement - is that useful to me ?

So i think the kit i need to put together as a base kit looks like this;

FPS, STC *OR* XY (not sure) + adaptors - (6mm, 11mm, 17mm tilt/swing) Canon EF mount, Mamiya 645 mount, Hasselblad V mount.

From what i have read here, the view finder offers little practical value (am i wrong on that?) - Should i get the viewfinder or not?

Is the using an iPhone as a view finder and holder MkII any good - is this a useful thing to use or not? (in the real world that is - not in a glossy brochure world)

As far as i can see, thats about it for the base Alpa kit.

Then i need lenses. Is there any sort of list anywhere on what can/cannot be used?

I want to consider the traditional lenses used on a tech camera. Which lenses will fit the above setup? (23,28,43,60 etc Rodi or Schneider's)

Then i want to look at MF lenses to mount to the FPS - but if possible i want to retain ability to stitch with these lenses.

Hassleblad seem to be the easiest to adapt. Which hassy lenses will fit on the above setup?

I need to research Mamiya 645 lenses to see whats available because i just have no idea on Mamiya.

With the Canon adapter i would think that if there is an adapter to mount a given lens to Canon EF mount, then just about anything could be mounted to the FPS.

Sadly, the Rollei's just seem too difficult. Not giving up but Rollei has moved back a few notches in importance because of the difficulties. There is enough to grasp here as it is without worrying about trying to mount and *control* Rollei lenses.

I have no clue what i am doing with a tech cam - never used one before - but will do whatever is required to come to grips with it. I will have loads of time to learn it all and practice so this aspect does not worry me at all.

Have i missed anything that i should be consdiering/watching out for?


Weight is of no consequence - i have sherpa's to do the carrying. Size is of no issue at this level given setup times etc.

Thanks for any input

as the title to this forum states .......

"Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here."

I'm gone and hopelessly out of control here already. Oh well. Its only money.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
Mark,

I think the XY is a pretty large object to be carrying around in the bush, and it's not clear that you'd need its range of movements. The Max is a wonderful camera (and half the weight of the XY), but has no more shift than the STC. If you can "get by" with 18mm shift to each side, it is a very nice camera. Unless you need rise and shift, I think it's a better choice than the Max.

The iPhone adapter is a very good viewfinder solution. I've had one for a while, and just installed it on an STC. You can program the iPhone app to show your lenses, and save a lens list. It's like having a large EVF. Though it's not "looking through" your lens, it does a very good job.

Steve
 

young'ee

New member
Stephen,

Right, so the iPhone view finder has at least "some" merit.....hmm OK, well i will add that to the list.

I have no real sense of the sizes of these cameras - may have to make cardboard mockups to get some idea of whats what. But weight and size of no real importance i think - as i said - i wont be carrying it - the sherpas will. So apart from having to carry it and what it weighs etc - what particularly would bother you about the XY ?

Is 25mm of shift too much in that there is no lens that can really use that amount of shift anyway ? If there is a lens that can use it all, then i don't see size and weight to be an issue.......at this time......will be an interesting discussion in a few months if i did go that way. I can say, i am listening real careful to what you guys have to say on all this.

I was listening to an audio book yesterday in the car........ the book said " its a funny thing about how people ask for advice.....they rarely ever take it". Food for thought indeed. At this time my eyes are wide shut on all this. So trying to stand back and let the people who know, talk about their experiences. I reckon i'd do well to listen. So please any thoughts most welcome.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
For landscape type images your most likely going to do more panning than stitching. It's easier for one . Need only one LCC shot to correct all the pano shots and you just don't need to be as critical with landscape. Although folks do stitch in the field, it's just a easier task doing a pano with great results. Stitching really is important when doing more architecture type work as your dealing with vertical lines much more that need to be accurate. Not saying stitching is not as important in the field just that you can get by easier just doing some panos. Arguments for both obviously.

Btw I'm up for adoption. Lol
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Schneider SK 60 XL has one of the widest image circles to be found 120 mm worth of movement on that lens and it stellar. Its a must have. Lenses well something to be said for all the Rodie's as it will work with the 80 mpx better. This gets expensive but the 23 is awesome , no real movements here maybe 2 mm, 28 mm about 7 mm, 35 mm I think about 15mm in each direction, than the 40mm are all some of the best tech lenses you can buy. Arguments for one or the other are varied as far as use but the are stellar.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
I have the Max and FPS (OK, and a TC, but I can't remember the last time I took that out), and think it's a great combination.

Re Max over the STC (or SWA for that matter), I just like the fact that I'm ready to stitch in any direction that might be needed.

Having said that, if I was being totally honest, I wish I had the XY, if only for the geared movements on both axes.

Viewfinder - I rarely use it (I have the optical one). Makes a lot of sense of course if you're doing handheld work, but once you start working off a tripod, you can line things up pretty quickly without it. It does look cool though!

Lenses...

OK, here goes, and this is where the fun really begins.

I have the following:

"Tech" lenses -
23HR, 32HR FPS, 50HR short barrel, 70HR FPS, 120 and 210 Schneiders.

All but the 23 work on both the FPS and Max. Only the 50 and the two Schneiders can be used on the FPS and Max together (i.e. when the FPS is being used as a shutter unit for the Max). Put another way, there is no way to shift the 32 or the 70 on the FPS.

The 32HR is just stunning. It's so good, that I think it makes a lot of sense to base your lens choices around it.

The Rodie lenses are basically spaced out so that when you step up from one to the next, the horizontal field of view of the shorter focal length lens becomes the vertical field of view of the next one up.

The full set is -

23, 28, 32, 40, 50, 70, 90.

It's worth noting that the 23 and 28 have VERY limited movements on a full frame digital back.

Now, I started with the 70 (it's the cheapest of the lot IIFC), so my set of lenses is a bit "off". If I'd thought about it more and considered where I might end up after a few years, I wouldn't have started with that lens.

The 32 is stunning. Oh, did I say that already?

OK, so basing on the 32, skip every other focal length and you end up with -

23, 32, 50, 90. I think that's a great set. The 23 is definitely optional though since you may not want to go that wide. Additionally since you'll be getting an FPS, you can save a whole bundle of cash and get the Canon 24mm TS-E in place of it. It's not AS good as the 23, but it's pretty close if you use it carefully.

So, perhaps drop the 23 and spend that money on the two Canon wide tilt-shifts and still have more than $5K left over. (I've not mentioned center filters yet, but you really do have to use one on the 23, and also it's good to have the one for the 32.)

Then add in the 120mm Schneider.

I can't comment on the Hassy lenses, but I'm sure Dan will chip in there (possibly you won't need the 120 Schneider if you get the Hasselblads).

On the Mamiya side of things, you will quickly realise that there is simply no point in duplicating focal lengths that you've got covered with the tech lenses (with two exceptions that I'll come onto in a moment).

Yes, you can pick up the old manual focus Mamiya lenses very cheaply, and some of them are very good. If you want to extend your focal length range, then go for it and you can pick up the 150/200/300 f/2.8's at pretty reasonable prices on the second hand market.

Where you may well cross over into the focal lengths covered by your tech lenses is...

Mamiya 24mm fisheye. Only available second hand, but it is a brilliant, brilliant lens. If you really want to have some fun, you can get the lens hood shaved off, and then shift-stitch 4 images on the Max for a massive circular fisheye image.

Mamiya 80mm f/1.9. The fastest ever MF lens (to the best of my knowledge). I love mine, but really don't shoot enough with it because it is an absolute bitch to focus wide open on the FPS. However, the IQ250 will give this lens a whole new lease of life.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 
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young'ee

New member
Guy - you are too funny !!

Why dont you consider doing a workshop over here?

I've not shot landscape pano's so really, have no idea what i am doing. I just want to get myself well setup for the task. Its getting hold of the lenses that i think will be the hard part.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Fair warning the folks here are going to kill your wallet. Just be aware your buying the best there is but at a cost. This forum is relentless on bank accounts. Lol
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Good luck with your quest, Youngee. There's plenty of help here.

A few quick notes - others will chime in I'm sure.

It doesn't sound like the advantages the X/Y offer will be of compelling use for you, although it depends. If money or size/weight is no object....

What you have to be mindful of is that people often recommend - with the best of intentions - solutions with their budget in mind more than yours. Even if you state "money doesn't matter" it's hard to recommend something that seems wasteful for a single small feature that adds an inordinate amount of cost. I often fight the same thing myself as a person who sells solutions to clients - I need to be very cognizant of the client's budget, what they are capable of spending and what they want to spend, and perhaps critically, what is the most relevant for them, the cost or the feature. It's not always an easy perspective to grapple with (and some people who sell products take it in the opposite direction!). But it has to be addressed, it absolutely cannot be assumed. What is helpful is when clients are open to trusting and sharing their feelings about this.

That said, the XY does offer some additional movements beyond the STC (though most lenses won't be able to take full advantage of them when combined with larger sensor DB's). This also includes the ability to combine movements (horizontal shift & vertical shift) in the same shot, though for the work you're describing, this situation may not come up frequently. It also provides compensatory gearing, but again, this is mostly a benefit for vertical shift. But all this comes at a cost of additional price and size/weight.

The optical viewfinder appeal is mixed. While optically, it's georgous, practically, many find using an iPhone with the Alpa Finder II app perfectly fine. It is kind of a subjective choice, I feel. Personally, I use the iPhone with the Alpa finder and get my scene, then set up. This can also be done by cupping your hands! The iPhone allows for a bit more precision for the particular lens/sensor you're using though than the cupped hands approach!

Mamiya lenses include the manual focus (or to be more exact, the lenses that have aperture control). No aperture control, no go, at the moment.

More lenses will be coming. Don't forget you can use the Schneider Tilt/Shift lenses (28, 50, 90, 120).

For now, at least with the larger sensors (60, 80 megapixel), the Rodenstock wide lenses are going to give you the best bang for buck for shift capability and performance. The Schneider wides will not allow the same degree of shift, even if they possess the same image circle. Once you get past 50mm, the choices are more equivalent and subjective on the particular individual lens performance for a given focal length. For your fat pixel digital backs, you can utilize some of those smaller, lighter, less expensive Schneider wides, so I wouldn't automatically discount those.

It's an exciting time for anyone moving forward on an FPS camera, Youngee.


Steve Hendrix
Capturer Integration
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I would love to do a workshop in Africa actually I would kill to do one. Get me enough folks and I'm on it. Lol

I can get you hooked up on anything you want its a matter of shipping internationally though. Seriously if you need help I can make some calls.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Deliberate separate post to explain the different ALPA mounts and how they relate to the cameras, because it can be confusing.

There are four different mounts:

1. Regular mount - these just mount directly to the TC/STC/SWA/Max/XY (I'll refer to these as the "regular" cameras) without any "spacer" adapters. The 23HR is an example of one of these lenses.

These lenses CANNOT be used on the FPS and maintain infinity focus.

2. Short barrel 34 - these lenses barrels are 34mm shorter than they need to be in order to focus at infinity. They are designed to be used with - surprise - the 34mm adpater on the "regular cameras'. The 50HR SB34 is an example of one of these lenses.

These lenses CAN be used on the FPS and maintain infinity focus with a 17mm adapter.

In addition, these lenses CAN be used on a combination of a "regular" camera and the FPS. You'll need the 6mm adapter to maintain infinity focus. (A bit of maths here and you'll realise that the regular cameras are all 11mm thick)

3. Short barrel 17 - Do NOT buy any of these mounts. They can be used on the "regular" camera, but not the FPS.

4. Short barrel 17 FPS - I think now all of the lenses that were available in SB17, are now also available in SB17 FPS mounts. These lenses CAN be mounted to the FPS - in fact, they mount directly to it without any other adapters. These lenses can also be used on the "regular" cameras by using the 17mm "intermediate" adapter.

The above may seem confusing at first, but it soon sinks in, and the different mounting options go a long way to making the ALPA system so flexible.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

young'ee

New member
Yeah i do realize the cost is OTT - but that's fine - i plan to keep and heavily use the gear till i need to press the eject button for something like a heart bypass or some other old age thing (it'll be back home to Oz to get that done) - still got a few years in the old dog yet though. So this gear will get a work out.

Have so many projects in mind. My wife is a publisher of sorts (publishes a magazine) and has fantasies of publishing books that she plans to write - so she is actually behind me on all this and encouraging me to go all out (can you believe it!!!!)...she thinks i am going to take photos for her books ..hahahahaha
 

young'ee

New member
Re Max over the STC (or SWA for that matter), I just like the fact that I'm ready to stitch in any direction that might be needed.

Having said that, if I was being totally honest, I wish I had the XY, if only for the geared movements on both axes.
Gerald,

I am walking in your shadow ! A man after my own heart indeed.

Very encouraging!

Thanks for the input.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
One little hint...

If you want to be able to tilt/swing, then don't buy the 34mm adapter so that you can use long barrel lenses on the "regular" cameras.

Buy the FPS 17mm T/S adapter. This in combination with the 17mm "intermediate" adapter, will give you your 34mm, and mean that you can tilt/swing your long barrel lenses on both the FPS and the "regular" cameras :)
 

jlm

Workshop Member
if one is geaing up for the FPS, do you get Sk and Rodie lenses fitted with the helical focus mount but no shutter? does this offer any savings?

re the I-phone: just handholding it is great for evaluating FOV
for rotation panos, it is very useful if mounted to judge overlap of shots
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
if one is geaing up for the FPS, do you get Sk and Rodie lenses fitted with the helical focus mount but no shutter? does this offer any savings?

re the I-phone: just handholding it is great for evaluating FOV
for rotation panos, it is very useful if mounted to judge overlap of shots
I don't know if they're even available without the shutter - doesn't the shutter unit also allow setting of the aperture?

I like the point about using the iPhone for judging rotation panos - nice one.
 
I would go for the MAX, its the perfect combination of "stitchibility", creativity and maneuverability. You can stitch in all direction and you can hand hold it if needed. I have used mine handheld for portraits. And the max is the most beautiful Alpa in my opinion :)

I would also suggest an FPS for more artistic shots. There area capabilities on this camera that we are not even aware of yet ;)

As far as lenses I have tried : Shneider 35mm 47mm 72mm
Rodenstock 32HR 50HR 90HR

32HR - best wide angle lens... period
50HR - great all around lens with lots of "tiltability" can be used with 2, 17mm tilts to give you tilt in two directions...
90HR - sharpest lens I've ever used PERIOD... the rendition on this lens is beyond anything i've ever used.

I have sold all the schneider and use only Rodi lenses.

I personally use lots of tilt, so my lens choices are based upon the ability to tilt. I don't use any 17mm or 34mm standard adapters and use only tilt adapters. For me it almost seems silly to not pay a little more to have the option of tilting, and if you don't want to tilt just set it to 0.

You've made a good decision to go with Alpa. I know that since I switched over, I never looked back! The difference is in the details :)

Hope this helps :)
 

young'ee

New member
It doesn't sound like the advantages the X/Y offer will be of compelling use for you, although it depends.
Steve, what types of situations, shots would take advantage of the XY or MAX?

My planned usage is landscapes in the bush, if my wife gets her way, lots of waterfall pictures (thats what her book is about and she seriously thinks because she is supporting this purchase i am going to take photos for her -we'll see - i am going to extract full mileage from this but that is another story)

I appreciate your comments re budget etc. In my particular case i am going all out to do it right. Its a once off purchase and i can write it all off against my OTT tax bill so its all good. However i do want to buy wisely - not just throw it around blindly. I've taken stupid risks on the job to get where we are today - literally come within a hairs breadth of losing my life more then once, so keenly aware of the value of what we have.

I do want to get a good set of the tech lenses - they will be needed and for taking images for reproduction is the way to go i am sure.

The real fun for me is adapting the golden oldies. Super interesting to me.

I am going all out on the camera/lenses - far more reserved on the backs. The p25+ fat pixel is a no brainer (to use a US saying) - should be fun to try different older backs to see the "look" they give.

As for a more serious "big" back - i am not really sure. There are some who say dont go past the 39MP backs. I like the looks of the Leaf 56MP you have on sale right now - been tempted to pick the phone up more then once in the last few days to order it from you.

I can definitely say i will not be going for a latest model 80MP - the depreciation is just too silly for me - i have no problem investing a large amount in the camera and lenses - already accepted the cost of that and moving forward on it - the Alpa cameras and lenses are forever - but the back - i just cant see the value in the latest 80MP monsters. The next best thing will be out next year and every year thereafter. I think it make more sense, at least till i know what i am doing with all this gear to go for value 56MP. Jury still out however......and no i am not going to let you talk to my wife - all she can see is waterfalls in high res and says go for the very best - who cares about the money - geez the opposite of what most guys get and i'm complaining ;-)

I dont want to side track this thread so will open a new one on the merits of that back Vs others.

Again, thanks for the input.
 
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