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IQ 160 Vs Aptus II 10

Y

young'ee

New member
Starting a new thread on this so as not to pollute the other thread on tech cams.

As those who frequent the forum know I'm looking to setup a complete system from scratch.

I need a back of some sort. My intended priority is landscape and i want to stitch to get the classic 3:1 pano ratio.

There is a great deal on the Aptus II 10 right now. Seems to be a bargain given its new not used and is not ex demo or similar. It's $10,995.00.

Things i like about it are its brand new, the sensor size lends itself to pano's, the LCD is semi usable by all accounts and the LCD is biggish compared to the P series.

Things i don't like are; FW 800, fan, battery out the bottom. The battery is no biggie though - can live with that no real issue - be better if it was inside but it is what it is.

The FW800 is really putting me off though - the SP2 thread has me excited about the possibilities. However i will never be able to get in on the SP2 if i go with this back.

I feel 56MP is plenty enough and even has advantages compared to the 80MP backs. At 11K for 56MP brand new i feel its a good way to get my feet wet in this whole scene and start on the long learning curve to get on top of this whole setup.

The IQ 160 is a LOT more money so wont be buying one new if i go this way. It has a better LCD screen and most importantly it has USB 3.

I know there are a slew of other improvements but as far as i can see its all usability.

What i would like to know is how the image quality compares to the Aptus II 10 ?

These are both 60MP class backs - i think the Aptus II 10 maybe one generation older then the IQ 160 but am wondering if these sensors are pretty much the same quality or if the IQ 160 is in another league?

Thanks for any input. Loving this forum and its gang! Very friendly place. Great experiences shared freely - really enjoying my time here - thanks all!
 
kdphotography

kdphotography

Well-known member
When the IQ series MFDBs were released, it was an "a-ha" moment not so much for its image quality as it was about usability. And it caused quite a clamor. I wouldn't discount usability in a MFDB.

If the Aptus II 10 were an R with internally rotating sensor, that might give some pause, but for me, I'd still opt for an IQ series MFDB. You can expect slightly better image quality. Longer exposures compared to the Aptus---and this could be huge. Surface Pro 2 tethering capability aside, the IQ series adds Focus Mask, Sensor Plus, better screen, etc. These are big advantages to being able to use your MFDB when you simply can't tether.

Imho, the usability factor alone is worth the initial investment in the IQ. It's possible to upgrade later, but I think this will cost more in the long run. Between the two MFDBs, I think the most photographic enjoyment will come from the IQ160.

ken
 
danlindberg

danlindberg

Well-known member
I love my Credo 60, which would be pretty close in handling to an IQ160.
But if it came down to Aptus II 10 + HR32 or 'just' the IQ160 - just as an example, then I would go Aptus. At the end of the day file quality is just about the same between those backs, sure some differences but no biggies.
If you are able to have it all, by all means, the IQ screen is miles ahead, but my preference would be to get the lenses and cam I need as a priority. You know, the best there is now that can outlast a few generations of sensor tech.
 
T

torger

Active member
If the 3:1 format interests you I'd probably go for the Aptus. Price is much better. With the IQ160 you get to pay many thousands of dollars for usability features that would cost a few hundreds in consumer electronics, and do you really need it?

I feel that the more you use a camera the less you need usability features, as you develop skill to work with the system. If you're experienced at composing and focus images you can do fine with a simple screen. And the Aptus screen is not worst either, it can do 100% focus check, unlike say a P65+.

Image quality I would not worry about, same sensor technology and Leaf was not too bad at using them either, but do look at raw files if you're worried.

The weakest point of the Aptus I'd suspect is the risk to get a lemon, ie one that does not work reliably. Leaf will never admit that there is a problem with the series, but I've seen too many user reports and had repeated problems myself until I got a unit that worked solid - it should be said though that Leaf was there and solved the issue so they help you out if you would get problems, but having a good dealer is an advantage if you should get into trouble.

You should ask Peter (Pemihan), he recently investigated Aptus 10 vs IQ160 and eventually went for the IQ160, haven't heard why though.
 
P

Paul2660

Well-known member
I have used the Leaf, but as I recall it has doesn't have the 4:3 ratio, instead closer to the 3:2. I may be totally wrong on that. However it if does, and you prefer that 3:1 pano style (I do also), the sensor of the Leaf may be a bit better suited to horizontal (landscape) stitching.

However:

1. I would look at the Leaf Credo 60 or even the 40 which is priced very well currently. Or look at the possibility of a refurbished IQ160. I believe these are still available. The Credo has an excellent LCD very similar to the IQ LCD, however I believe the Credo screen is larger and has no buttons, it's all touch.

2. USB3, I was a bit late to the dance on this, but after working with it for a few days, I can say, wow, it makes a huge difference. I had played with my P45+ tethered via Firewire, but the transfer speed seemed very slow and there always seemed to be some issue with connections. It took Phase One quite a while to get there, but they are, and it's a big difference. You have all types of options, mackbook, surface pro, other laptop, or a desktop, and maybe in the future, a iPad with a USB3 connection (who knows)

3. LCD screen, if you are going to use a tech camera, wasn't sure from the title, then please consider the Credo or IQ160 option. The LCD makes using a tech camera a very usable process, especially if you have young eyes. The screen for me has become a glasses off view but that's still not a major issue. Either Credo or IQ will give you a view at 100% that will let you know for sure if the subject is in focus.

4. The Credo 40, will allow you to use the less expensive Schneider's 35XL, 43XL and make larger stitches, before you hit the wall of smearing and saturation fall off. Depending on the tech camera you pick, there are always a good number of 35XL's on the used market. The 32 Rod is better for sure much better, but it's also 10K with the CF.

5. The IQ will give focus mask, and sensor plus both of which can contribute to your overall photography toolkit.

Either way, make sure you have picked a dealer that will work with you and one that you are comfortable with. Also consider the IQ value add warranty and the similar one offered on the Credo.

Good luck on your decisions.

Paul
 
Rollei6008i

Rollei6008i

Member
I am using 10R & my friends are using Credo 40 , Credo 60 , Credo 80 , IQ160 , one of them switched back from Credo 60 to Aptus 10R .

The images resolutions are similar between 60 & 10R but as my personal feeling that the color retention seems some better in 10R , definitely, the LCD display on Credo's are the winner.
 
S

shlomi

Member
I've used Aptus II 10 and now am using a Credo 80 which is pretty much the same as IQ.
I wasn't really planning to upgrade - I only did it after my equipment got stolen and the only way to get the full insurance credit, was to buy a Credo.
I was very satisfied with the Aptus.

There are a few differences:
- Aptus has some color inaccuracies - in reproducing artwork I've had some trouble recreating certain shades. This doesn't happen in normal items from nature or industry - only in art. This is fixed in Credo/IQ. The Aptus colors were prettier though so the clients were happy in the cases they didn't notice discrepancies (99%).
- Credo/IQ connects to PC much faster than Aptus, and even if there's a disconnection, it reconnects immediately so you don't even feel it. A pretty big improvement.
- The Aptus FW connector is pretty good and not many problems with it, but you must have an Apple laptop to connect to it. PC laptops only with an express FW card which needs to be powered separately, can't be securely installed and moves around and disconnects, and is generally a nightmare. I installed Windows on an Apple laptop.
- Credo/IQ requires battery always inside and charged to operate. If tethered with FW, then FW can constantly recharge the battery. If tethered with USB, then you MUST always be changing batteries on your Credo/IQ manually. Extremely annoying - that problem doesn't happen with Aptus - it doesn't need a battery to work tethered!
- Credo/IQ gathers sensor dust very quickly - every few days. Aptus can works weeks and even months without cleaning.
- Image quality difference is very slight and can be seen only under extreme circumstances.
- Credo/IQ is 1/3 stop more sensitive to light under the same ISO setting.
- Of course the screen and entire operation of the Credo/IQ is very superior - if that is a major aspect of your work, then you might want to think about it. I always work tethered so it means very little to me.
- Credo/IQ don't work properly with bodies older than DF, so if you find yourself in a position where you need an urgent body replacement, with Aptus you can quickly find a $1000 spare 645AF. With Credo you would need to downgrade to the oldest firmware - I don't think there is any solution for IQ. Don't knock this point, as these bodies sometimes do fail, and the new ones are quite expensive.
 
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Y

young'ee

New member
Shlomi,

Brilliant feed back!

This is the sort of hands on information i need to help decide.

From what i have been able to understand is that (and as you mention) the quality between generations is almost negligible. Its there, but get out the microscope to see it. In real world application this does not matter to me.

So it all comes down to useability features.

Its a lot of cash being diverted to a higher series back just to be able to get USB3 and which be could be spent on lenses. My intended use would be mainly tethered (i think - no real world use to go by)

It looks to me the real jump for some practical value would be to an IQ260 - to get long exposure capability - that's a real world very handy feature.

My biggest concern is FW800 and being stranded some years down the track. I have never used FW anything (PC all the way here since 1984) so just not sure how big an issue using FW800 to tether is.

FW800 does force me to the dark side (Mac) and i am not happy about that. Much much prefer the Surface Pro 2 thing to a Mac Book Pro Laptop.

But gee... so many $$$$$$$$$ to be able to use a SP2 Vs an Mac book pro.

Focus mask advantage is a non issue if shooting tethered.
Horizon indicators are no big deal to me - use a little more care setting up - right?
Sensor+ seems of little use to me right now (may change)
 
S

shlomi

Member
You can use a Macbook with Windows installed, and that is a solid solution - however you generally need to plug the Macbook to AC - it might be able to power the back off the laptop battery alone, but you can't count on it.

You can also use SP with express card FW and connecting a power cord to the express card - that would work with Aptus.
 
Y

young'ee

New member
Really Brilliant feed back from all members who have posted here . so many thanks !

its both exciting and scary at the same time to be selecting my first Digital back!

I am finding my wife is no use at all - she is fine with any option i take no matter the cost - so no objectivity there at all.

I think the wisdom here is get the camera and lenses and whatever back does the job - learn to work around the limitations - because really.....this has all come so far since the 90's where i left off. I don't think any of these backs being discussed are a bad choice.

The only bugbear is FW800 Vs USB3. I can leave every other "feature"


What to do , what to do.........
 
K

Ken_R

New member
young'ee said:
Really Brilliant feed back from all members who have posted here . so many thanks !

its both exciting and scary at the same time to be selecting my first Digital back!

I am finding my wife is no use at all - she is fine with any option i take no matter the cost - so no objectivity there at all.

I think the wisdom here is get the camera and lenses and whatever back does the job - learn to work around the limitations - because really.....this has all come so far since the 90's where i left off. I don't think any of these backs being discussed are a bad choice.

The only bugbear is FW800 Vs USB3. I can leave every other "feature"


What to do , what to do.........
Click to expand...
I stretched my budget a tad to get the IQ160 and it was WELL worth it. I am actually glad I did not get anything less. The IQ screen is just superb and the whole IQ chassis is just solid and is really a simple and awesome industrial design. It feels really current. Kinda future proof. I am sure phase will continue to use it. The other backs feel really dated. The IQ160 never feels slow when checking 100% focus on screen or browsing through the images. Working with it is just so smooth so far, it's transparent, never gets in the way.
 
T

torger

Active member
It's always "best" to have the latest. But as it seems to me, for you it's going to be a very expensive USB3 port.

Soon(ish) full-frame CMOS will arrive, hopefully tech cam friendly. Then the IQ160 will not seem as futureproof any longer. To me the MF seems to be in a dynamic technology switch phase right now, CMOS is coming, so I think it's a good time to go for something a little bit less recent and more value for money and wait and see what happens.

I'm looking at getting an Aptus-II 10 myself though, so the fewer that buys it the better as it keeps prices down ;-). The strange and less popular 3.1:2 format makes the back cheaper than it otherwise would have been, so when you have a shooting style that fits the format it's really good value.
 
Y

young'ee

New member
Could tethering to a tablet with FW400 work OK?

I guess that would need a FW400 to FW 800 adapter

So something like this ; DB FW800 out -> FW800 to FW400 adapter ->Tablet with FW400 input.

Hmm, not sure. Anyone with Firewire knowledge chip in here please - does it have to be a FW400 6 pin port or is FW400 4 Pin plug OK on the tablet? As far as i know FW400 4 Pin is non powered and FW400 6 pin is powered?

With the Aptus having its battery external, powering from the back itself should be ok with a fw400 4 pin connection?

This would seem to be a better answer then using an express card setup with all its flaws.


Questions... seems one question/answer leads to 3 more questions. Not easy this DB stuff !
 
S

shlomi

Member
800 to 400 doesn't need an adapter - just buy the proper cable.

4 pin FireWire will not work.

The battery goes instead of the cable, so you can't use both at the same time.
 
Y

young'ee

New member
right - so what you are saying is..... with the right cable,

i can go from FW800 on the back to FW 400 input on the tablet if the FW400 connection on the tablet is a 6 pin ?

So there is some sort of cable that has FW800 connection on one end and FW400 on the other end.

Just want to make sure i get this right and not misunderstand anything.

Why will FW400 4 pin port not work ? If the back is powered from its battery we dont need power to the back over the FW400 connection.

I must not be understanding something about FW400 here
 
S

shlomi

Member
right - so what you are saying is..... with the right cable,
i can go from FW800 on the back to FW 400 input on the tablet if the FW400 connection on the tablet is a 6 pin ?

- Yes

So there is some sort of cable that has FW800 connection on one end and FW400 on the other end.

- This cable is for sale at all the dealers for about $120. In fact I have two on sale right now:
New Mamiya Leaf Aptus 400 800 6 9 4 5M 15ft 1394 Firewire Cable | eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191064820265


Why will FW400 4 pin port not work ? If the back is powered from its battery we don't need power to the back over the FW400 connection.

- If the back is powered by the battery then there can't be a cable connected because the battery is blocking the connector.

4 pin firewire is officially not supported and I've never seen it work. I suppose you could finagle getting power into the back through a fake battery connector, and run the FW though the empty part of that connector. That sounds harrowing - it might work but I would not try it.

I don't think there is any tablet with a 6 or 9 pin connector.
 
T

torger

Active member
I would also consider software support. I'm not that impressed by the committment of Phase One to support older backs. They do keep format support in newer versions of Capture One, but when I've heard about software bugs the answer has been that they don't put man hours into discontinued products, and you then you can only hope that the bug also affects other formats they care more about.

Worringly often I hear Phase One officials refer to the discontinued "Leaf Capture" software to work around problems.

I only mention this as a risk to be aware of, I don't consider it as a show stopper. I do myself not use C1 very much but other alternatives and the .mos format has good support in alternatives, and you can make DNG files of them of course. Tethering however I guess is limited to very few programs. If I would be dependent on tethering in Capture One and have that as only alternative, I'd be a little bit worried. Directions in software products can change fast. Being dependent on some odd hardware adapter or laptop product for FW could be an issue too. The back could work for 10 years without problems, but in 10 years much can happen with firewire and various software programs.

If you work professionally I'd recommend to go for the latest and have a budget that fits keeping with the latest. It does seem that to get the best support you need to have the latest gear. If you use a bit older gear you have to be prepared to do workarounds at times, but forums like this is very good for finding information for that. I'm an amateur on a budget myself and using old gear and "being on my own" I see as a part of the deal.
 
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