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Why Are Tech Cams So Expensive?

torger

Active member
With some accessories the manufacturers are a bit sloppy though.

I don't mind "paying for the brand", if the brand means something, ie a guarantee that the design is good and quality assurance is good, so you know if you buy a branded accessory you get good stuff and don't need to worry about sample variation, poor fit or bad design.

This is not always the case though. One example is the push-on lens caps that expand in warm weather until they fall off, and shrink in cold weather until they are difficult to remove, and I don't think that's really acceptable.

I have a Linhof-branded B&W outdoor case, ridicously priced because it says Linhof on it, and still the custom-made foam insert is wrongly cut so the camera does not really fit without forcing it it in. That's not good.

I don't like it when the only thing that happens with the company's brand stamped on the product is a raised price, and unfortunately it does happen for some accessories.
 

dchew

Well-known member
Anders,
Those lens caps are my pet peeve. I put a filter on each lens just for protection while stored in the backpack.

Expensive accessories has always been the case though, and a basic part of any premier product pricing model. From cocktails at an expensive restaurant to floor mats in that shiny new car. In some cases it is the accessories that provides the sustaining profit for the rest of the business.

In Alpa's case it is the more substantial accessories that add up and bite me every time. Back adapters are ~$1,300, That little wake-up switch is like $675, and a square 17mm adapter is over $500 (and it is just a glorified extension tube with no electronics).

We love this stuff!

Dave
 

torger

Active member
My back adapter plate is made by Linhof, but I got the tip to instead buy the Phase One-branded plate (it's the same Linhof-made plate but with Phase One logo). As Phase One is a cheap budget brand ;) that plate is substantially cheaper than the Linhof-branded.
 

jlm

Workshop Member
agree Graham as to economies of scale, but the poster was stating the tech camera cost was due to quality and precision of machining and high cost of machines.

and you bet, overhead is high in NYC, especially for manufacturing. Alpa and Linhof must have even higher overhead, if that is a metric
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Consider these small volume manufacturers as more than just fabricators. They are also design/prototyping operations, and sales/distribution organizations. I wonder if that doesn't use up more of their budget than the manufacturing side.

Linhof are masters of small volume production runs, and makes the Techno. An early check on serial numbers suggested production in the hundreds, maybe a thousand or so. While based on existing 6x9, there are a lot of unique parts on the camera. Leave aside some "in-production" modifications, run the numbers, and figure some overhead for admin, design, testing, marketing( not too much!), and inventory. In design/engineering firms, we had a 2.5-3 times multiplier on direct labor to cover the full costs. One wonders how much of the sales cost of the camera goes to just production expenses. My guess is much less than we think, likely less than half.

If folks can charge significant amount for a mere bottle of water (cost of bottling/distribution/marketing), this suggests why small accessories are so expensive: the pipelines for distribution are small and not nec. economical.

That these manufacturers might be shooting themselves in the foot with their high prices and limited markets has been a point well made for some time. It's hard for these companies to change, especially when the roadside is littered with others who didn't make it. I'm glad some of these small manuf. are still doing what they do, although some of the prices are a bit much.
 

torger

Active member
If I were a tech cam manufacturer I would be a bit concerned by that often more than half of the money spent on a system goes to the digital back manufacturer. I'm convinced that if backs were cheaper, tech cam manufacturers would sell more. Not sure though if the need/want to sell more than they do though. I have no ideas how their business are. I hope it's good.

For a while it was popular to state that the reason digital backs are as expensive as they are is because of the sensor. A large sensor is $1- $3k (indeed expensive), but the backs are $25 - $40k. Somehow I get the feeling that even if the tech cam precision mechanics is expensive you get more for your money than when you buy the digital back.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
As the caps, I have never understood why both Schneider and Rodenstock use the push on style. The first thing I have to do is order a new "standard modern style plastic cap" and put the push on in the drawer.

Paul
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Where I think the technical camera stuff IS overly expensive is with the small accessories and custom helicoid mounts. As Torger will attest with his lenses on lens boards, there's a huge leap in cost between a nude Rodie 40HR and the same lens mounted on an Alpa mount with helicoid. The price difference isn't covered by the precision machined chunk of aluminium and bolted on helicoid & mounted lens - even with adjustment on a colimeter at the factory IMHO. As regards some of the things like plastic lens rear covers, delrin body plates, aluminiumt body spacers / mounts for viewfinders etc are also outrageously expensive too for items that are little more than a machined square piece of metal with two mounting screws ($200) or injection molded clip on covers ($40+).
With regards the spacers, why would you expect these to be (relatively) cheap? They still have to be made to the same tolerances, and presumably in even smaller volumes than the cameras themselves.

ALPA 12TC - 1928 CHF.
FPS Lens mount 11mm (does exactly the same thing, just doesn't have mounting holes for accessories) - 653 CHF.

I'm pretty sure they'll sell more TC's than the 11mm FPS lens mount, and it's almost a third of the price - a veritable bargain ;)
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Gerald,

The TC has baffles inside, mounting hardware threads, clips and spring loaded bearings. A lens mount and things like 11/17/34mm spacers are a single machined piece with some anti-reflective blackening on the inside. Once you've set up the CNC machine it basically builds itself (ok, you have to anodize/paint it). In my view that's a big difference to a body with all of the manual assembly and parts.

$0.02. (which would be $20.00 in Alpa terms :ROTFL:)
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Gerald,

The TC has baffles inside, mounting hardware threads, clips and spring loaded bearings. A lens mount and things like 11/17/34mm spacers are a single machined piece with some anti-reflective blackening on the inside. Once you've set up the CNC machine it basically builds itself (ok, you have to anodize/paint it). In my view that's a big difference to a body with all of the manual assembly and parts.

$0.02. (which would be $20.00 in Alpa terms :ROTFL:)
No - the FPS 11mm lens mount is effectively a camera.

Yes, it is missing the baffles and threads, but everything else is there ready to attach back and lens.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Gerald - Fair point the FPS does have all the clips :facesmack: - the normal adapters are only 1/2 TC's by comparison. At least the adapters do have the clips mounted etc. A lens adapter is really just the machined spacer with a hole in the end for the helicoid.

Anyway, they're all expensive but I would challenge anyone to get one made to the same precision for the same or less money - in a quantity of one. :cool:
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Gerald - Fair point the FPS does have all the clips :facesmack: - the normal adapters are only 1/2 TC's by comparison. At least the adapters do have the clips mounted etc. A lens adapter is really just the machined spacer with a hole in the end for the helicoid.

Anyway, they're all expensive but I would challenge anyone to get one made to the same precision for the same or less money - in a quantity of one. :cool:
Yup - I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

I remember when the FPS came out commenting that in some scenarios you could have as many as 6 interfaces between the lens and the back. Everything in the system has to be manufactured to the same tolerances, and that will be neither easy nor cheap.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I read many responses here and all excellent points except one was not said so its calls for some humor. Bottom line we are all crazy enough to buy them. LOL

But as far as photo gear there not much sexier than having a tech cam. Truly a piece of art in itself.
 

dchew

Well-known member
Yup - I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

I remember when the FPS came out commenting that in some scenarios you could have as many as 6 interfaces between the lens and the back. Everything in the system has to be manufactured to the same tolerances, and that will be neither easy nor cheap.
I never before realized the FPS 11 could be a camera. They should add threads to the bottom so we can mount it to a tripod!

I don't want to take anything away from the manufacturing precision, but this Alpa/Seitz design is smart in that for most of the adapters and lenses there is only one spot where the dimension is critical: That little rib that runs around the base and defines the length. Everything else can have lower tolerance because of the way the mount tabs opposite the "ears" give when assembled.

The cameras and the FPS 11 are different. Those milled faces have to be close to perfect.

Dave
 
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