Sony makes crap and crowded interfaces. On the other hand for my landscape photography I can live with crap interface, as the pace is slow anyway.
That said, I'm a true romantic when it comes to simplicity, I really like my 100% mechanical tech cam, and I'm shedding tears that Copal shutters are on the way out. While not exactly good ergonomics or precise or even round aperture, I just like them. I even like ground glass focusing, it's not exactly good either but I feel like I'm Ansel Adams
I don't know if people think I belong to the "aggressive" posters here or not, but it's not like I think every camera should be like a Pentax 645Z and multipoint autofocus or high ISO is what we've all been waiting for, but I do find it very very satisfying that a manufacturer finally shows that MF cameras don't have to cost $30k. All talk about that it's because of the expensive sensors has been just rubbish. It's because of an expensive and inefficient business model.
I don't really care that much about this camera personally as I'm a view camera guy, but same sensor - P1 $35k, Hassy $27k, Pentax $8.5k (including body), that's why I'm saying "oh boy!".
I think this business needs (and can handle) a good shakeup, I don't think this type of camera gear should be something reserved for the super successful (financially) or super rich. Anyone with half-decent economy could shoot large format film in the film days, and I'd love to see "large format digital" become as accessible, rather than being held hostage by companies that can't make and sell backs in a cost efficient way.
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oh ya "torger" !!
and oh definitely ya Ya baby .. 645 zee ..
come on baby light my FIRE !!!
Personally, I prefer something that concentrates on being really, really good at something, and then let ME decide if that "something" is what floats my boat creatively, not some collective of peer pressure.
For my entire involvement with photography the priority was, is, and will remain the optics and how they played with the media used … be it film or digital. The camera is just a box, and all I ask of it is that it works and lets me do my Luddite thing … meaning I make the majority of the decisions with as few controls or distractions as possible.
That has not always been the easiest path, nor an inexpensive one.
Hasselblad solved the multipoint dilemma for MFD with True Focus allowing you to focus, and place that subject focus point anywhere in the frame … even the very edge.but it's not like I think every camera should be like a Pentax 645Z and multipoint autofocus or high ISO is what we've all been waiting for,
An exaggeration … "all" means everyone, and that isn't true. A great deal of these MFD cameras are used in studio tethered to a computer using lighting at base ISO."We've all been waiting for."
FYI, the Hasselblad price also includes the body. But unlike the Pentax, you can use the back on a tech camera.
A more efficient business model would be a reasonable course correction for these companies … but I fear that ship has sailed.
still waiting for the adapter that lets you put your ELITE on your H5D!
thank god they were so smart in the past to let phase design them an interface for their film backs.
they are asking 18.5k for that interface? huh!
dang, thats about 3-4 lunars!
PLEASE don't take that one serious, i just couldn't resist!
I think it may be less about generic cameras doing tasks "as well as" a specialized one, and more about the acceptance of "almost as good" as being the definition of "just as good" … and even that is defined in a very narrow band of performance that suits the prevailing argument … conveniently ignoring specialized functions like dual shutter cameras, tech camera solutions, sync speeds to 1/1000 or 1/1600, and so on.There is a problem with "horses for courses" when the generic all-around camera does a specific task just as good as a more specialized camera. This is what we see happening. It's not there yet, but gap is narrowing.
I think the camera companies have done a good job of turning us photographers into marketing stooges.
However, I do think Doug is right, cameras like this Pentax serve to introduce functions meant to draw in Canon and Nikon users at a price point that makes it a real consideration.
You mean like Leica? Under new leadership Leica is "finally" doing very well by striving for exactly that business model. They jettisoned the unprofitable R line, developed the unique S line from the ground up, and still kept the M line primarily as a specialized camera and got even more specialized with the MM. Even their retail outlets are "high-end" oriented. I don't care how many tacky special editions they sell to collectors and the newly rich as long as they stay in business to make the cameras and especially the lenses I prefer using.I think it will be hard in the future to be a company that only makes the best camera there is. To make the best, you will need to have technology developed in broader systems.
You may be right on this point. But I do wonder if they are capable of actually doing that no matter what business model they adopt. As has been mentioned, if the logic expressed on this thread prevails, they'd have to make a camera and back that sells for less than $10K. Possible I guess, but not very likely in the near future.I'd rather like to see that they bring in some fresh capital and brave management and focus on growing. With a broader entry level customer base they can maintain higher development costs in the camera systems to keep bodies and backs up to date.
Marc, I agree with your points. I want a camera that gets out of my way by allowing me to make the decisions intuitively and provides access to the best lenses. However, there are those of us that have to consider the financial aspects as well. While I am willing to pay a premium for a camera that suits me and my way of photographing, there is a limit to that premium. This new Pentax 645Z has such a low entry price I have to at least consider it with a hands on evaluation. Maybe I will like and maybe I won't.
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My MFD predilections were formed by a history of very specific needs and personal wants, and quite frankly not all systems can meet them including Pentax.
I owned a long string of Hasselblads from film Vs to a bunch of H cameras because they all were leaf-shutter systems with comprehensive and consistent lens systems. Now, all five of my Leica S lenses are CS versions + one adapted Hasselblad 100HC/2.2. Unlike the Hasselblads, I can use the S mount lenses with the focal plane shutter also. At least what I do is consistent with what I say some of the time
If it were not for those specific aspects, I probably would not require a MFD system nearly as much … at least not enough to warrant owning one rather than renting.
That's how I use the 645D. Since I grew up using aperture rings and most of the Pentax lenses available still have them, that's how I use the camera. I use Av or M mode, set the aperture I want and then set the shutter speed (maybe the ISO if I have to, but I still think film and avoid raising it); I ignore the rest.
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Tom I would venture to say a lot of folks from the film days think controls and features in simple form. I know I do mostly but there are times where something like auto ISO is nice to have but let me contol the top and bottom end and also give me the ability to set shutter Speed and aperture limits as well. The one issue is these engineers are thinking for us. That needs to stop. They can give us the features but let us set the parameters of those features and also to shut off that feature as well. Guess the bottom line here is sure give us all the stuff but let US end user set it as we wish . That way we can make it as simple as we want or as automatic as we want. They need to stop thinking they are shooters and guessing what we want without the customization. Heck my Sony the menu order alone makes very little sense. Format card is the 6th tab in and 6 line items in. Makes no sense where it's at.
Honestly they need to consult with shooters in the industry from all walks on content created.
Dang that's cool. Certainly like the price point of entry. I'm watching this for sure.
If a photographer does use more than one camera it can sometimes mean not using one for a few weeks or even months (like me, who uses my Sony gear mostly during the months of May to Sept to shoot weddings), but rarely during the winter months.
So, I have to re-learn the darn thing each time because the interface is so complicated and un-intuitive. The flow is so foreign to actual basic use that it drives me batty.
Not to constantly laud Leica, but the interface of the S camera is one of the fastest and most intuitive I've used to date. Four large toggle surfaces surrounding the LCD each with a logical grouping of controls … and each can be programed to a specific function and accessed by a longer push of that button.
So I have mine set up with ISO top left toggle, and Exposure Compensation is bottom left toggle. Top right is image review/magnification, and WB is lower right toggle.
This is my logical flow in sequence of most used functions. The stop down button can also be programed.
The camera can sit for weeks and I can pick it up and go right to work.
I think Phase One should collaborate with one or more of the tech camera manufacturers and push in marketing the advantages of tech cameras. Techs are practically invisible in their marketing, instead they push their 645DF+ for shooting landscape and architecture, which to me seems to be just bad use of expensive gear. Also, if you would only use the 645DF the Pentax offer becomes even stronger, as it can do about the same things in those genres to a fraction of the price.
Having tilt, swing and shift makes a real difference in creative possibilities, and the quality of wide angles are better than anything else thanks to the unique lens designs.
But maybe it's like someone else said, they need 645DF+ and lens sales to make the system profitable, so it's better to try pushing their own components than pushing the better and more unique one.
When we look at bokeh and skin tones in blind testing even photographers fail to differ between systems.
I think there is a thing that is "good enough" in terms of quality.
What's still relevant is differences in creative possiblilites, as you say sync speed and tech cam movements, and high ISO too.
Image quality is today the least thing to worry about when making good images. I'm a bit guilty myself though of pixelpeeping corners of wide angle lenses, so I still think resolving power sells, although I know my pictures won't be better with the higher resolution back I desire... I get asked quite a lot about advice for landscape systems, and then I always tone down the image quality advantages and instead point at the creative possiblilties with movements and the enjoyment of the single-shot image and different workflow. Landscape also have the advantage of being such slow paced that you don't need the latest feature sets to work efficiently enough, so older generation backs are just fine, and then cost is not necessarily that bad.
my point was not referred to video games cameras...pentax is not sony. pentax is camera made by photog for photog.
the features i was referring are all related to basic photography needs, simply the 645d is a joy to use, the leica s2 is not so friendly.
not assimilated? i mean u spend 50k sure u are not assimilated.
exaclty..that's this kind of spec that i was referring to when i was relating pentax as a user friendly and intuitive system, not all the useless gimmick sony introduced in cameras. pentax has tons of feature that makes photo experience fas and amazing.
for example they have with the dslr camera the function to move the sensor in every direction and angle for more than 2,5 mm, to adjust the composition when working with tripod. so you can use a ball head like a more precise head. this is not possible with 645d so far but maybe next 645z2 will have in body antishake.
i agree the lack of leaf lenses is a hole in the lineup.
for this I'm buying three sigma dpmerril that are as slow as a leica to use and give leaf shutter capabilities.
this should be an optimal interface?
compared to button for everything like iso wb compensation switching for metering af and a big control for choosing program included user program you can program up to 5 complete interface for 5 different shooting situation.
leica s2 not have double wheel, for me a deal breaker. so i imagine in manual mode you must push a button to change aperture or speed, am i wrong?
personally i agree sony is complex overburdened interface with useless features.
pentax is not sony, but not even leica as far as usability and interface. is the best brand out there and if you spend 10 minutes with a 645d i'm sure you will find at home easily.
for example zooming with pentax 645d and k3 is a breeze , with a 100% magnification easy with a touch of the wheel...we won't talk about zooming with nikon cameras? i prefer a fast zooming option than a delete images in a step instead a two step. actually rarely delete images in camera.
I have the Sonys and it's taken me awhile now to calm down the interface to make it as simple and pain free as possible. It still is over burned with stupid stuff. And it still is confusing and does weird things sometimes. Usually my problems come with review and get to antsy to shoot again. These things need to let the shooter be in charge. I still don't understand of all the tech in the features that we just can't go in and organize all the tabs and line items they way we want. These are the things where engineers are simple overthinking what they feel is correct for everyone. This is bad thinking. Now Japanese cars are similar they put a lot of stuff on them compared to let's say German cars. Its a culture thing which is not bad in a way but it gets too busy and confusing. Artist and I speak for myself are not engineers per say and it's more about feel than content. Problem here is there playing host to every genre of photography they can think of. I like the Sonys quality wise there great but even someone like me with a lot of experience handling cameras sometimes it's just a kludge fudge of a operation.
For all the talk of the Leica S being so simple and easy to use I can't get away from the fact that exposure compensation is not a direct wheel. That's beginner DSLR stuff and even the prosumer cameras have this feature as a direct access wheel. There are two ways to do it directly on my apparently horrifically over complicated Sony A7r. At a certain point reminiscing over retro style makes you forget just how much more ergonomic and fast to use (especially when the camera is at your eye) modern cameras are in comparison in so many ways. The canon 5D3 and Nikon D800 are a case in point. Everything is exactly where you need it. Mature ergonomic setups for fast and hectic shooting. I also thing the A7r would be a world better if it just had a 'my menu'...
However, the opinions of others aren't "silly" just because your opinion differs … or more pointedly, others my have a different definition of IQ than you do.
IMO, Image Quality consists of a number of factors that make up the whole imaging chain. For most applications, resolution needs were breached years ago, therefore other image attributes become more of the determining factor.
My interpretation of IQ has long since evolved to mean Image Qualities … what each format brings to the party in terms of look and feel … and the "characteristics" each format/camera/lens/software combination provides a photographer looking to express themselves in a specific way.
IMO, to imply that no one can tell the difference between anything made today, that it is all a homogenous mass of sameness separated only by marketing hubris, denigrates personal aesthetic judgement and emotive intuitions that make up any creative endeavor.
I think we should acknowledge the differences each choice provides us, and celebrate how they have contributed to our very personal vision no matter what gear was used to reach that end.
Diversity rules! Sameness sucks!
I have a 36 meg FF A7R, and a 37 meg Leica S2-P. The Image Qualities are vastly different … not necessarily better to all eyes, just different. I use each to express myself in different ways … but have a preference for the Leica because it better fits my aesthetic vision and satisfies me more consistantly than anything else I shoot with.
RE: blind testing: I'm an advertising career professional and know exactly how the psychology of "blind tests" work. I've participated in tests where 95% of participants couldn't tell the difference between a cheap beer and their favorite premium hand crafted beer … even thought there actually is quite a difference, and we know there is. Don't believe everything you see or read. Trust me on this.
i agree with you about iq is not only resolution. when i see my file from 645d is always a wow factor that prevails. and is not res. is tonal transition, colors, dynamic range in highlight, while the sony sensor are more in shadow. specular highlights are always much better treated also. my 645d rarely needs big tweaking, apart the time i am creative in cs6. the apsc from k3 for example are not so good out of camera.
i know at least 4 photog who had d800e and 645d and sold nikon for example.
FYI, that's because you don't use the S camera Ben. It isn't a menu item. It is wheel controlled.For all the talk of the Leica S being so simple and easy to use I can't get away from the fact that exposure compensation is not a direct wheel. That's beginner DSLR stuff and even the prosumer cameras have this feature as a direct access wheel.
If the exposure comp is assigned to the stop down button for example, when you press it the compensation info appears in the viewfinder, and is controlled by the thumb wheel. You never have to take your eye from the viewfinder. Fast and easy.
I think it's very different between genres how image quality is judged, in landscape it's very much about resolution and dynamic range, color is secondary as most can achieve desired result in post - when skin is not involved it's less black magic. Bokeh is also less of a factor.
When I give advice I don't feel I'm honest if I push vague quality differences, mf quality is already way over-hyped. I don't have expertise in portrait though, so I refrain from giving advice for that, there are other parameters to consider there.
personally i have to see something from a d800e that amazes me especially in landscape. especially colors. in addiction form me there is any lens under 35 mm that can match the level of the pentax fa 35 for example. even the 14-28 s,8 doesn't amaze me especially in the corners. the only lens camera combo who amazes me is the otus lens, that cost 4000 and is a 50. try to make a 28 for 35 mm that performs like the otus. it will cost double and weight 2 kilos.
when i see landscape taken with mf , especially technical camera , is always superb. natural tone and color, tack sharp, clarity.
and i 'm a afraid the use of cmos sensor in 645z will result in less interesting IQ, compared to ccd.
this is a samples i took recently with the a35 a lens costed me 300 dollar. i didn't pp white balance or nothing else. just rapid conversion from lightroom
two crops that probably are even bigger than 100%.
i doubt you can find a 28 mm for d800 e or sony a7 that cost 300 dollar and has this corner performance. and the fa35 is said to be better.
The shutter speed is controlled via a traditional analog type dial on top right of the camera and aperture is controlled by the thumb wheel.
I prefer the traditional style shutter dial because I'm used to them, and I can see the settings when the camera is on a tripod without looking through the viewfinder.
I don't need or want a zillion custom user programs (I wouldn't even know if that is a feature with the Leica S or not, because I don't care). I had all that stuff with my Hasselblad H4D/60 and never had need of it, or ever used it.
That isn't to say it isn't important to others, just not me.
If for some reason I had to sell off my S system, I'd probably take a look at the Pentax. Why wouldn't I? Seems like a nifty kit that I could just about pay for from the proceeds from one Leica CS lens
In any case I diverse. The DF is a nasty lump of dog doo. At a price that's an utter disgrace. P1 has the C1 users and tech users over a barrel. Pay our horrifically over inflated prices because you don't have a choice. That kind of thing doesn't buy loyalty or customer satisfaction. This year we will have to buy a new DF+ as our current one keeps failing. We can't afford the down time. I would be stupid not to be thinking about the other options on the market given the pricing of the DF.
I posted this previously, but in case you didn't catch it. Note that the 645Z can use an external monitor as a EVF in live view
Feature 5?645Z | RICOH IMAGING
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Sort of a non-issue for me anyway because I use manual exposure more 80% of the time with the S, especially in situations where comp would be necessary.
I'm just about 100% manual exposure with the Sony A99 and A7R because you can see exactly what you're getting in the electronic viewfinder.
Boy, you'd think Phase would have dealt with their body issues by now. They have such good backs that it's a shame the body lags so much.
I thought everyone was using servo always and have back button focus? I never change focus mode on my Canon, back button focus covers all my use cases.
Since you haven't used the S enough to have a clue on it's ease of operation, maybe you should do the same? There are enough accomplished photographers using the S who think it is easy and friendly to use anyway.
I think where we differ is that we're it up to me, I'd have a totally analog camera with a digital sensor … something akin to my Leica M monochrome. So, you are arguing with a Luddite
I didn't spend $50K, but yes it wasn't inexpensive to indulge my specific tastes and predilections. But I sold an even more expensive kit to get it.
Lively discussion to say the least
but the pentax 645d/z is just SO ugly! I guess if you buy it for work, it'll be like the Phase DF... a pure work horse. but OMG that thing is ugly.
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i spend 4900 euro for a practically new 645d bought from a guy who bought phase one and 645d , he has 2 phase one actually, and probably more money than time. then for less than 4000 euro i bought all my lenses that span from 28 mm to 350mm.
i'd like also to have ls lenses to cause my project are always in the street and i like to kill ambient. but i have to say that with a powerful flash like godox wistro i can shoot daylight using the hspeed flash in camera and optical sensor out of camera, not the best outfit. for my LS needs I'm thinking buying the three sigma merril. for me foveon is the only thing near medium format and their sensor give me great latitude in printing.
In any case I diverse. The DF is a nasty lump of dog doo. At a price that's an utter disgrace. P1 has the C1 users and tech users over a barrel. Pay our horrifically over inflated prices because you don't have a choice. [/QUOTE]
If Pentax can offer the exact same Sony 50MP chip in a complete camera for $8,500, I see no reason why Pentax could not build a removable back with the Sony chip for even less. It could be designed to be used with tech cameras, the Hassy H2 and H4x, and (OMG) the Phase/Mamiya DF. Whether the market is there or not is another matter. This would totally upend the marketplace, because I really doubt that Phase or Hasselblad can wring more from a CMOS chip like the Sony. From what I have read, the pipeline from the chip to the raw file is much less subject to variation, so less secret sauce in the pipeline.
I think the market for an affordable back is there through landscape amateurs, but now is not the right time. We need CMOS with better wide angle response first. A little larger size would not hurt either.
However I don't think it fits the big companies way of making business - making a back to be used with some other manufacturers camera - won't happen. The most likely way to get an affordable back I think is Sony making a new Mf mirrorless system with short flange distance, that can be modified by some mechanical shop to a tech cam back.
Last edited by torger; 18th April 2014 at 07:14.
In either Av or Tv mode the back wheel is exposure compensation. Like that on every canon other than the rebels since the beginning of EF cameras I believe. I understand the back wheel on the Nikons does the same thing.
I wonder if P1 have the technology to advance their body? Pentax like Canon/Nikon have had over a decade of body innovation driven by the DSLR market which has been a fierce marketplace for advances in technology. Mamiya have barely advanced beyond their film bodies to be frank. There has not been the competition and market to drive the advances. Their engineers have been away from the cutting edge for way too long. The entire MF business has been like that. Sluggish innovation without a market place drive to innovate. Yes the H4D had true focus and the IQ backs and these were both innovative but when set against a backdrop of what has been happening in the DSLR world it's been rather slow and relaxed.
Now we get the 645Z which is a modern DSLR even up to the tilting screen and multiple cross AF points with the same 50 megapixel sensor that the competition is marketing as the best thing since sliced bread, for barely over the price of a Canon 1Dx. I assume Sony is going to be the next out there.
My dealer keeps telling me to wait for Photokina before choosing whether to buy another DF body. I'll ask what I asked earlier in the thread. Does anyone imagine that the replacement P1 body, if it is actually going to happen, is going to come in at a price which will not have us rolling around laughing on the floor for the sheer chutzpa of it relative to what else the market place will be offering by then? This is a real question. I'm running 3 studios at present. For two of them we're using D800e's. Our MF studio has a camera which has had two shutter replacements in 7 months and a mirror replacement. I have a cheque book ready for another DF body but it would be irresponsible to pay that kind of money if there is a better solution available for a fraction of the price (total cost). Of course being tied to C1 means we are somewhat hostage to Phase One. Can't pretend that it's engendering warm feelings for P1 pricing though. If I had my way we'll be buying an RZ. Might still happen.
Legitimate question and has been since last Photokinia and Phase one has still yet to come out with a new body. Sorry as much as a fan I might be its irresponsible at this point to keep making the promise to its end users and not delivering a product. Sorry no marketing spin will work at this point. There cheating there customers plain and simple. And yes I'm waiting for a phone call. Tough **** I said it and I mean it.
The bottom line and listen closely folks are looking at alternates and this Pentax has some horsepower. Frankly I always thought buy a new back get a free body was the best marketing plan yet for Phase. Obviously never in there game plan.
I'm off to go shoot food today and I'm hungry too. Lol
As I said on that other forum, I'm struggling to think of an uglier camera, but that said I'm struggling to think of a better value camera.
For me? No.