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Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
If you only read the forums the following cameras were destined to end Phase One's dominance in high-end photography:
- Canon 1D
- Canon 1Ds III
- Canon 5D II
- Nikon D800/E
- Mamiya ZD
- Red Epic
- Red's roadmapped-but-never-shipped 6x17 camera
- Pentax 645D (first gen)

None of this is a slight against the 645Z. Just a reminder that, according to forums the sky is constantly falling, whereas according to public balance sheets Phase One's sales volume and profitability have increased every year since the financial crises.

There is definitely room for more than one successful 50mp camera. In fact, the availability of more than one is almost surely a net-positive for all of them. That is to say, every time Phase, Hassy, or Pentax advertise their medium format offerings it raises interest and awareness that there is something above/beyond the commodity Canon/Nikon offerings.

Remember, medium format is not fighting for 50% of the total market, or even 5% of the total market. They are fighting for a sliver at the top of the top, so growth/success is less about beating out the other medium format players and much more about reaching the 95%+ of serious photographers who assume they don't want/need/desire medium format because they've never used it or the last time they used it was many years ago.

Look at Ken R: it was the Pentax 645D, at their attractive cost of entry, that brought him into medium format, but he ended up selling it and getting a Phase One. Would he have tried the (more expensive) Phase One system if he hadn't waded into the waters more gently with the Pentax first? I guess you'd have to ask him, but my bet is no. Many of our customers are like this. They end up with an IQ180 or similar as a result of a "gateway" system (D800, Pentax 645, entry-level p1 back) which whets their pallets for better image quality.

Dante's inferno indeed.
 

mbn

New member
even if phase comes up with an competitive new body.
there is still the humongous price difference.

8.5k vs. maybe something around 40k for an not even announced body.:loco:
thats one expensive über body, and focus mask of course!... 30k.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Doug lets be a little real here they also had nothing really much to compete with either so they have enjoyed the success and good for them and no one will ever say there backs are not the best in class, thats a given and we all agree. But that DF does not help there cause and we all know that too. They other fact is money is money and there is zilch of loyalty when it comes down to the almighty dollar. They can keep anyone at bay with a new body but lets also say there has not been a new body like this that has some of these feature sets we have never seen in MF, that alone can cross breed people. And lets be honest it will make people think before dropping there mother load too as nothing like this has been around in the past, so Phase can stay on top but this will undercut them some just like every damn photographer out here in the free world gets undercut daily by cheaper shooters. I know I deal with that constantly and when the rubber hits the road for us Pros we are looking for deals too. Not always but we need to watch our P&Q's too. The bottom line here nothing from anyone has come out with some powerful features yet until this and just the AF points alone which drives us all up the wall is pretty powerful. Its time to wake up and get that damn new body out the door. Promises only last so long

Now I say that having owned 5 Phase backs and every body they made if that choice came today and I am a fan of Phase we all know that BUT and there is a big BUT here now. This is revolutionary in this market and that speaks loudly.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
8.5k vs. maybe something around 40k for an not even announced body.:loco:
thats one expensive über body, and focus mask of course!... 30k.
And...
- P1's color look when coupled with C1
- an entire line of modern autofocus leaf shutter lenses
- sync speed of 1/1600th
- availability of overnight loaner warranty
- availability in rental
- knowledge of techs/assistants on a particular system
- buffer depth
- tethering speed, stability, tethering features
- availability of vertical grip (very useful for catalog houses where often for hours each day you shoot nothing but verticals)
- compatibility with tech cameras
- compatibility with view cameras
- on camera features like focus mask, customizable exposure warning, customizable/movable grids/guide

etc

Again - not saying the 645Z isn't a nice camera. I'm just pointing out that there are many attributes of a camera; a point nearly all threads like this seem to miss. In some of them the Pentax 645Z will suit some users better; in other attributes the P1 system will suit some users better.
 

mbn

New member
just saying...
for most of us, there will be a limit of what we are willing to pay for what ever feature. most people will think even harder than ever before, given the features and 30k.

im in the mfdb market just for the movements, so i will never get a pentax.
im happy with that old back that i bought on the used market, two years old, 900 exposures by the original owner, not a single scratch... for 1/3rd of the retail price.

others need the flash sync or whatever feature and "need" to shell out several thousands of dollars to do their job. and they probably don't even care about it, as long as it saves them from running into trouble!:)

others will love or need those af points pentax is offering now.
just buy three of them for peace of mind and still save some cash...


the game hasn't changed, its the options that have changed.
a lot.
 

torger

Active member
Phase One has an entirely different business model and way of developing cameras, they don't have any mass market cameras to borrow tech from. It costs a lot more money for them, and thus a lot more money for their customers.

I think there are quite many customers where 8k vs 40k actually don't matter too much, and Phase One can survive on that -- but to do so they must have a better offer than the competition. They do have a number of good features, but now with the 645Z I don't think IQ250+645DF+ is the best way to show it. IQ260 on an Alpa shooting architecture, then we have something that differs.

I have a hard time seeing why a wedding photographer would choose a IQ250 instead of a 645Z, even if the 645Z would be the more expensive system. Some will still do of course, but l think the 645Z may become an even tougher competitor than the D800 was.
 

gazwas

Active member
If you only read the forums the following cameras were destined to end Phase One's dominance in high-end photography:
- Canon 1D
- Canon 1Ds III
- Canon 5D II
- Nikon D800/E
- Mamiya ZD
- Red Epic
- Red's roadmapped-but-never-shipped 6x17 camera
- Pentax 645D (first gen)
Sorry Doug but all of those cameras you list did have a major effect on what professional photographers purchased and a great many did drop MFD in favour of these smaller but much highly specified and flexible formats.

Phase have been fortunate that while Pros have been leaving in droves, many well heeled amateurs and dedicated enthusiasts have replaced (surpassed) their numbers and boosted Phase Ones balance sheet enabling Phase to continue to develop a really great range of digital backs.
 

jagsiva

Active member
@Doug,

while a lot what you say about Phase is correct, I am not sure the customer intimacy and service are where they should be for the price point. I do speak from personal experience, and in a lot of cases, the gap is filled by the dealers.

For numbers in the 6 figures, I expect to at least get a straight answer.

Now at 8.5K, I will be a far more patient man :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Last word from me as i don't want to get took far into this but after leaving MF awhile back this has been the first thing that has opened my eyes towards MF since than. I simple can't get back to the dollars it takes but this opens a door slightly and Im hoping this turns out to be a winner. MF needs a shot in the arm and this is good for the industry and bottom line for me is I NEED this industry to survive. Nikon and Canon look pathetic and its making me nervous. Good luck folks
 

torger

Active member
Service is not as good everywhere. In Europe the market is so fragmented that dealers are tiny and are only used to very specific use cases. Trying out a tech cam and get good advice for that here in Sweden -- good luck. As a user around where I live you actually need a forum like this to get any decent support and advice.
 

Chris Giles

New member
Biggest issue I have with Pentax. Customer support and servicing.

Hasselblad is about 6 weeks when it needs to go off.
Phase (no idea I'm Hassy)

Canon CPS there and back in four days for anything big or small.

I can see myself using the 645Z for weddings, like the couple shots but then I may not be bothered and even more so, I may just wait for Nikon to release something MF.

Because I do think it's on the cards. As it's already been said, Sony just shook everything up and will want to sell as many sensors as possible.

I would like to know what's being said in Canon HQ right now and I'm sure both Canon and Nikon will be watching the 645Z's progress into the market closely.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Even if this new Camera does not fit to an HCam - I fullheartedly welcome this new piece of hightec ! While reading through the specs I started drooling - did you see the Multiexposure stuff ? I mean - really - huh what ?:clap:
__________________________________________________________
Select the composite mode according to your expressive intentions
Multi-exposure


Set the amount of shots (from 2 to 2,000) and merge them into a single image. Each time the shutter button is pressed, exposure is adjusted and images are merged, and you can check the results in detail on the LCD screen. You can select the composite mode from three options to match your varied expressive intentions.
[Composite Mode]
● Average
Creates a composite image with the average exposure. You can easily enjoy multi-exposure photography without adjusting the exposure for each shot
● Additive
Creates a composite image of the cumulatively added exposure.
● Bright
Compares each shot, selects the bright sections and merges those selected sections. Because the dark sections are left as-is, this is effective for photographing the moon, fireworks, or illuminated buildings and other objects when you want to highlight the contrast.
________________________________________________________

I salute great engineering, if this is on normal japanese large series standard (which I don´t doubt much) the best thing about service will be: not needed much of it.

Damn, this is a cool camera..... and even if they would have sold it for 50% more it would be nice, but 8000€ incl. VAT ? Jeeeez.....

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
●________________________________________________________

..........I salute great engineering, if this is on normal japanese large series standard (which I don´t doubt much) the best thing about service will be: not needed much of it.......................

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
+1. I would like to see Pentax restore their repair facility in Colorado for US owners, but after 3.5 years with the 645D I have needed service exactly zero times.

Tom
 

kuau

Workshop Member
I have been out of the mix for a while, though having owned a 645D and going through almost a dozen used 645 FA and A lenses, I did end up with a very usable system for my needs though when I had the opportunity at the time, now almost 4 years ago to get into a Tech View camera, I have never looked back.

Fast forward to today, the new 645Z looks very tempting, yet I am worried about QC for all the lenses Ricoh has re released also at a substantial price. 50mp very demanding on the glass. I was just looking on ebay for 645 lenses and they are all still priced very low, Though buyer beware, based on what I use to own, the 35/3.5 A lens, FA 75/2.8 45-85 FA zoom, FA 120 macro and FA 300/4 lens these may all work with the new sensor though I am sure only at optimal aperture.

Maybe Ricoh will put in place a much higher QC in place yet I doubt it.

Call me old school but I still like the look of CCD over CMOS no matter what the mp is. For me being a base ISO shooter the look of CCD has always appealed to me.

50mp is intoxicating with real LV, wow, if Ricoh could have only ditched the OVF for EVF then wow, I maybe very tempted, though now having a tilting LCD and a good loupe, very interesting.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Last word from me as i don't want to get took far into this but after leaving MF awhile back this has been the first thing that has opened my eyes towards MF since than. I simple can't get back to the dollars it takes but this opens a door slightly and Im hoping this turns out to be a winner. MF needs a shot in the arm and this is good for the industry and bottom line for me is I NEED this industry to survive. Nikon and Canon look pathetic and its making me nervous. Good luck folks
Guy, all you say is true and I agree with it, but there is one thing that cannot be overlooked. As you know I am a big fan and a user of the Pentax 645D system. It's performance and operation has been near flawless but Pentax's USA service on their medium format products has been virtually non existant. It's something to keep in mind and hopefully this too will be addressed by Ricoh.

Dave (D&A)
 

D&A

Well-known member
I have been out of the mix for a while, though having owned a 645D and going through almost a dozen used 645 FA and A lenses, I did end up with a very usable system for my needs though when I had the opportunity at the time, now almost 4 years ago to get into a Tech View camera, I have never looked back.

Fast forward to today, the new 645Z looks very tempting, yet I am worried about QC for all the lenses Ricoh has re released also at a substantial price. 50mp very demanding on the glass. I was just looking on ebay for 645 lenses and they are all still priced very low, Though buyer beware, based on what I use to own, the 35/3.5 A lens, FA 75/2.8 45-85 FA zoom, FA 120 macro and FA 300/4 lens these may all work with the new sensor though I am sure only at optimal aperture.

Maybe Ricoh will put in place a much higher QC in place yet I doubt it.

Call me old school but I still like the look of CCD over CMOS no matter what the mp is. For me being a base ISO shooter the look of CCD has always appealed to me.

50mp is intoxicating with real LV, wow, if Ricoh could have only ditched the OVF for EVF then wow, I maybe very tempted, though now having a tilting LCD and a good loupe, very interesting.
Steven and I have been through the teething pains of the 645 optics on the 645D body and I too doubt that QC for each lens sample is going to change very much.

I too completely agree with Steven that the look of the CCD is quite unique and have some concerns that the CMOS based 645Z won't quite match the image characteristics that some of us cherish about CCD based sensors. The 645D at base ISO had a look that I found particularly attractive and natural. I look forward to working with images from the 645Z and their similarities and differences.

Dave (D&A)
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Dave,
Maybe next year I will come out to DC for cherry blossom festival and shoot the 645Z and do a side by side comparison with the 645D.
Apparently this was a good year for the cherry's of course the year I go with you sucks... Figures not your fault though :)

Question, have you seen the new prices on B&H for the re released FA lenses? Wow !! Not cheap. It will be interesting to see of Ricoh has re formulated any of the FA glass. Probably not....
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Dave,
Question, have you seen the new prices on B&H for the re released FA lenses? Wow !! Not cheap. It will be interesting to see of Ricoh has re formulated any of the FA glass. Probably not....
I was curious about prices for the Pentax 645 FA lenses as well. Dave mentioned that the current prices are very similar to what these lenses sold for in the past, when Pentax USA offered them for sale with the 645 film cameras. I just had a look at the prices of the few legacy Mamiya 645 AF lenses available (ie not the "D" versions). Prices of the Pentax 645 FA lenses are very competitive with the Mamiya 645 AF lenses. Pentax also offers many more lenses in this relatively affordable price range than Mamiya does.

Just one example...at B&H Photo, the Mamiya 645 35mm AF lens is priced at $2,490 while the Pentax 645 35mm FA lens is priced at $1,597.

Once again, Pentax is setting down a marker for "value priced" medium format cameras....now in the digital realm.

Gary
 
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