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Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
What Marc said. Aside from the apparent hostility evidenced by many posts here is the notion that cameras that don't offer the full panoply of mod cons are deficient. What I miss from when I owned Leicas was how little they did for me. They didn't require a user manual and a multi page menu to customize their functions. I have no problem with people wanting all those features; I just don't. But I don't call the people who want them names, or suggest that they're lesser photographers for wanting them.
I think the real trick in wanting all these features is the ability to not use them either until you want them. EVERYONE in the OEM business needs to give us the complete ability for OFF BUTTONS. If there going to load us with menu items than put in ones where you can have custom memories and ability to call them what you will fashion, sports, landscape or whatever than let US decide what we want on and off in each custom setting. Sure may take 3 days to set it up who cares but once you do than your ready to go.
 

torger

Active member
Sony makes crap and crowded interfaces. On the other hand for my landscape photography I can live with crap interface, as the pace is slow anyway.

That said, I'm a true romantic when it comes to simplicity, I really like my 100% mechanical tech cam, and I'm shedding tears that Copal shutters are on the way out. While not exactly good ergonomics or precise or even round aperture, I just like them. I even like ground glass focusing, it's not exactly good either but I feel like I'm Ansel Adams ;)

I don't know if people think I belong to the "aggressive" posters here or not, but it's not like I think every camera should be like a Pentax 645Z and multipoint autofocus or high ISO is what we've all been waiting for, but I do find it very very satisfying that a manufacturer finally shows that MF cameras don't have to cost $30k. All talk about that it's because of the expensive sensors has been just rubbish. It's because of an expensive and inefficient business model.

I don't really care that much about this camera personally as I'm a view camera guy, but same sensor - P1 $35k, Hassy $27k, Pentax $8.5k (including body), that's why I'm saying "oh boy!".

I think this business needs (and can handle) a good shakeup, I don't think this type of camera gear should be something reserved for the super successful (financially) or super rich. Anyone with half-decent economy could shoot large format film in the film days, and I'd love to see "large format digital" become as accessible, rather than being held hostage by companies that can't make and sell backs in a cost efficient way.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
That makes sense but when you pay so much more for so much less...
So much "less" of what Ben?

Personally, I prefer something that concentrates on being really, really good at something, and then let ME decide if that "something" is what floats my boat creatively, not some collective of peer pressure.

For my entire involvement with photography the priority was, is, and will remain the optics and how they played with the media used … be it film or digital. The camera is just a box, and all I ask of it is that it works and lets me do my Luddite thing :) … meaning I make the majority of the decisions with as few controls or distractions as possible.

That has not always been the easiest path, nor an inexpensive one.

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Sony makes crap and crowded interfaces. On the other hand for my landscape photography I can live with crap interface, as the pace is slow anyway.

That said, I'm a true romantic when it comes to simplicity, I really like my 100% mechanical tech cam, and I'm shedding tears that Copal shutters are on the way out. While not exactly good ergonomics or precise or even round aperture, I just like them. I even like ground glass focusing, it's not exactly good either but I feel like I'm Ansel Adams ;)

I don't know if people think I belong to the "aggressive" posters here or not, bve all been waiting for, but I do find it very very satisfying that a manufacturer finally shows that MF cameras don't have to cost $30k. All talk about that it's because of the expensive sensors has been just rubbish. It's because of an expensive and inefficient business model.

I don't really care that much about this camera personally as I'm a view camera guy, but same sensor - P1 $35k, Hassy $27k, Pentax $8.5k (including body), that's why I'm saying "oh boy!".

I think this business needs (and can handle) a good shakeup, I don't think this type of camera gear should be something reserved for the super successful (financially) or super rich. Anyone with half-decent economy could shoot large format film in the film days, and I'd love to see "large format digital" become as accessible, rather than being held hostage by companies that can't make and sell backs in a cost efficient way.
I actually agree with most of that … except:

but it's not like I think every camera should be like a Pentax 645Z and multipoint autofocus or high ISO is what we've all been waiting for,
Hasselblad solved the multipoint dilemma for MFD with True Focus allowing you to focus, and place that subject focus point anywhere in the frame … even the very edge.

"We've all been waiting for."
An exaggeration … "all" means everyone, and that isn't true. A great deal of these MFD cameras are used in studio tethered to a computer using lighting at base ISO.

FYI, the Hasselblad price also includes the body. But unlike the Pentax, you can use the back on a tech camera.

A more efficient business model would be a reasonable course correction for these companies … but I fear that ship has sailed.

- Marc
 

mbn

New member
still waiting for the adapter that lets you put your ELITE on your H5D!
thank god they were so smart in the past to let phase design them an interface for their film backs.

they are asking 18.5k for that interface? huh!
dang, thats about 3-4 lunars!

PLEASE don't take that one serious, i just couldn't resist!:eek:
:dh2:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
There is a problem with "horses for courses" when the generic all-around camera does a specific task just as good as a more specialized camera. This is what we see happening. It's not there yet, but gap is narrowing.
I think it may be less about generic cameras doing tasks "as well as" a specialized one, and more about the acceptance of "almost as good" as being the definition of "just as good" … and even that is defined in a very narrow band of performance that suits the prevailing argument … conveniently ignoring specialized functions like dual shutter cameras, tech camera solutions, sync speeds to 1/1000 or 1/1600, and so on.

I think the camera companies have done a good job of turning us photographers into marketing stooges.:ROTFL:

However, I do think Doug is right, cameras like this Pentax serve to introduce functions meant to draw in Canon and Nikon users at a price point that makes it a real consideration.

I think it will be hard in the future to be a company that only makes the best camera there is. To make the best, you will need to have technology developed in broader systems.
You mean like Leica? Under new leadership Leica is "finally" doing very well by striving for exactly that business model. They jettisoned the unprofitable R line, developed the unique S line from the ground up, and still kept the M line primarily as a specialized camera and got even more specialized with the MM. Even their retail outlets are "high-end" oriented. I don't care how many tacky special editions they sell to collectors and the newly rich as long as they stay in business to make the cameras and especially the lenses I prefer using.

I'd rather like to see that they bring in some fresh capital and brave management and focus on growing. With a broader entry level customer base they can maintain higher development costs in the camera systems to keep bodies and backs up to date.
You may be right on this point. But I do wonder if they are capable of actually doing that no matter what business model they adopt. As has been mentioned, if the logic expressed on this thread prevails, they'd have to make a camera and back that sells for less than $10K. Possible I guess, but not very likely in the near future.

- Marc
 
Marc, I agree with your points. I want a camera that gets out of my way by allowing me to make the decisions intuitively and provides access to the best lenses. However, there are those of us that have to consider the financial aspects as well. While I am willing to pay a premium for a camera that suits me and my way of photographing, there is a limit to that premium. This new Pentax 645Z has such a low entry price I have to at least consider it with a hands on evaluation. Maybe I will like and maybe I won't.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, I agree with your points. I want a camera that gets out of my way by allowing me to make the decisions intuitively and provides access to the best lenses. However, there are those of us that have to consider the financial aspects as well. While I am willing to pay a premium for a camera that suits me and my way of photographing, there is a limit to that premium. This new Pentax 645Z has such a low entry price I have to at least consider it with a hands on evaluation. Maybe I will like and maybe I won't.
Totally agree Mark. If I were just moving into MFD for whatever reason, it'd be on the shopping list for sure.

My MFD predilections were formed by a history of very specific needs and personal wants, and quite frankly not all systems can meet them including Pentax.

I owned a long string of Hasselblads from film Vs to a bunch of H cameras because they all were leaf-shutter systems with comprehensive and consistent lens systems. Now, all five of my Leica S lenses are CS versions + one adapted Hasselblad 100HC/2.2. Unlike the Hasselblads, I can use the S mount lenses with the focal plane shutter also. At least what I do is consistent with what I say some of the time:ROTFL:

If it were not for those specific aspects, I probably would not require a MFD system nearly as much … at least not enough to warrant owning one rather than renting.

- Marc
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
I think the real trick in wanting all these features is the ability to not use them either until you want them. EVERYONE in the OEM business needs to give us the complete ability for OFF BUTTONS. If there going to load us with menu items than put in ones where you can have custom memories and ability to call them what you will fashion, sports, landscape or whatever than let US decide what we want on and off in each custom setting. Sure may take 3 days to set it up who cares but once you do than your ready to go.
Guy:

That's how I use the 645D. Since I grew up using aperture rings and most of the Pentax lenses available still have them, that's how I use the camera. I use Av or M mode, set the aperture I want and then set the shutter speed (maybe the ISO if I have to, but I still think film and avoid raising it); I ignore the rest.

Tom
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Tom I would venture to say a lot of folks from the film days think controls and features in simple form. I know I do mostly but there are times where something like auto ISO is nice to have but let me contol the top and bottom end and also give me the ability to set shutter Speed and aperture limits as well. The one issue is these engineers are thinking for us. That needs to stop. They can give us the features but let us set the parameters of those features and also to shut off that feature as well. Guess the bottom line here is sure give us all the stuff but let US end user set it as we wish . That way we can make it as simple as we want or as automatic as we want. They need to stop thinking they are shooters and guessing what we want without the customization. Heck my Sony the menu order alone makes very little sense. Format card is the 6th tab in and 6 line items in. Makes no sense where it's at.
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
........but there are times where something like auto ISO is nice to have but let me contol the top and bottom end and also give me the ability to set shutter Speed and aperture limits as well. .....................
The Pentax hyper program mode does just that. I think the 645Z is in your future :ROTFL:
 

D&A

Well-known member
Heck my Sony the menu order alone makes very little sense. Format card is the 6th tab in and 6 line items in. Makes no sense where it's at.
As previously pointed out, although Pentax is innovative with a number of unique shooting modes such as hyperprogram, it also suffers from illogical choices of how to implement "format card" (similar to the Sony's) and the inability of accomplishing simple functions like quick delete an image in a single step like with Nikon DSLR's. Finding very amateur like multi - step instructions to simply accomplish what is essentially a quick one step protocol with most other professional digital cameras is often maddening when needing to work quickly. Finding this on what was a initially a $10,000 camera (the 645D) was perplexing considering how well thought out the rest of the camera is.

Dave (D&A)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Honestly they need to consult with shooters in the industry from all walks on content created.
AMEN to that Guy.

If a photographer does use more than one camera it can sometimes mean not using one for a few weeks or even months (like me, who uses my Sony gear mostly during the months of May to Sept to shoot weddings), but rarely during the winter months.

So, I have to re-learn the darn thing each time because the interface is so complicated and un-intuitive. The flow is so foreign to actual basic use that it drives me batty.

Not to constantly laud Leica, but the interface of the S camera is one of the fastest and most intuitive I've used to date. Four large toggle surfaces surrounding the LCD each with a logical grouping of controls … and each can be programed to a specific function and accessed by a longer push of that button.

So I have mine set up with ISO top left toggle, and Exposure Compensation is bottom left toggle. Top right is image review/magnification, and WB is lower right toggle.

This is my logical flow in sequence of most used functions. The stop down button can also be programed.

The camera can sit for weeks and I can pick it up and go right to work.

- Marc
 

torger

Active member
I think Phase One should collaborate with one or more of the tech camera manufacturers and push in marketing the advantages of tech cameras. Techs are practically invisible in their marketing, instead they push their 645DF+ for shooting landscape and architecture, which to me seems to be just bad use of expensive gear. Also, if you would only use the 645DF the Pentax offer becomes even stronger, as it can do about the same things in those genres to a fraction of the price.

Having tilt, swing and shift makes a real difference in creative possibilities, and the quality of wide angles are better than anything else thanks to the unique lens designs.

But maybe it's like someone else said, they need 645DF+ and lens sales to make the system profitable, so it's better to try pushing their own components than pushing the better and more unique one.
 

torger

Active member
"just as good"
I think it's becoming increasingly silly claiming relevant quality advantages of the MF systems. In the film days there were real and large quality differences between 35mm and 4x5" in pure resolution. Today the best digital 35mm systems produce a file which rivals 4x5" film.

When we look at bokeh and skin tones in blind testing even photographers fail to differ between systems.

I think there is a thing that is "good enough" in terms of quality.

What's still relevant is differences in creative possiblilites, as you say sync speed and tech cam movements, and high ISO too.

Image quality is today the least thing to worry about when making good images. I'm a bit guilty myself though of pixelpeeping corners of wide angle lenses, so I still think resolving power sells, although I know my pictures won't be better with the higher resolution back I desire... I get asked quite a lot about advice for landscape systems, and then I always tone down the image quality advantages and instead point at the creative possiblilties with movements and the enjoyment of the single-shot image and different workflow. Landscape also have the advantage of being such slow paced that you don't need the latest feature sets to work efficiently enough, so older generation backs are just fine, and then cost is not necessarily that bad.
 

jon11

New member
:deadhorse:

That's your opinion, which I fully accept as being just as valid for you, as mine is for me. Making it into some sort of verbal contest with your opinions and IQ speculations presented as absolutes is fruitless banter … especially regarding something no one has used yet.

I don't need nor want all the buttons and whistles. Don't need a larger sensor (I recently sold a FF 60 meg MFD camera system.) I do NOT want CMOS. I do not want Pentax optics. I do not need to compare anything, and don't care if others do so since it is meaningless internet babble that has little to do with my work and how I want to express myself.

Do hope Leica keeps the S simple and straightforward rather than turning it into a "fast and friendly" video game (something I also despise about Sony and most other modern "swiss army knife" digital cameras). Do need all of my lenses to be leaf-shutter able with sync to 1/1000 with strobes. Do like being able to adapt select Hasselblad H and Contax 645 lenses while keeping all of the functions fully intact.

Works for me … don't care if it doesn't for others :)

I resist the Borg, and will not be assimilated :ROTFL:

- Marc

my point was not referred to video games cameras...pentax is not sony. pentax is camera made by photog for photog.
the features i was referring are all related to basic photography needs, simply the 645d is a joy to use, the leica s2 is not so friendly.
not assimilated? i mean u spend 50k sure u are not assimilated. :)
 

jon11

New member
So much "less" of what Ben?

Personally, I prefer something that concentrates on being really, really good at something, and then let ME decide if that "something" is what floats my boat creatively, not some collective of peer pressure.

For my entire involvement with photography the priority was, is, and will remain the optics and how they played with the media used … be it film or digital. The camera is just a box, and all I ask of it is that it works and lets me do my Luddite thing :) … meaning I make the majority of the decisions with as few controls or distractions as possible.

That has not always been the easiest path, nor an inexpensive one.

- Marc
The Pentax hyper program mode does just that. I think the 645Z is in your future :ROTFL:

exaclty..that's this kind of spec that i was referring to when i was relating pentax as a user friendly and intuitive system, not all the useless gimmick sony introduced in cameras. pentax has tons of feature that makes photo experience fas and amazing.

for example they have with the dslr camera the function to move the sensor in every direction and angle for more than 2,5 mm, to adjust the composition when working with tripod. so you can use a ball head like a more precise head. this is not possible with 645d so far but maybe next 645z2 will have in body antishake.
i agree the lack of leaf lenses is a hole in the lineup.
for this I'm buying three sigma dpmerril that are as slow as a leica to use and give leaf shutter capabilities.
 
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