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Pentax 645Z - oh boy!

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
To be fair, perhaps the comment was also a refection of how off topic this thread has become.
Perhaps but still a bit shrill for this site....


It is a bit surprising how passionate we can be about vaporware...
Not even released ... no beta pics and it is a life changer. I have seen
the Phase 250/H 50C and they are meah, ok at best. So someone throws out a big sensor at a price that still stretches one budget and it is amazing because it is so much less than product x. Really?

It would behoove most of us to chill for a year or so and then look at the evidence...unless you have money that needs to be allocated in a separation or divorce proceeding.....more bandwidth has been spread with this discussion of hopes/dreams/desires than any effort to share recent work/cognitive reality/edifying process....

GETDPI has a core that is knowledgeable professional and collegial ... nice to affirm those qualities as we learn just how amazing or lame the new new thing will be.

END OF RANT > back to the circus.


Bob
 

fotografz

Well-known member
No, not "just." And for certain type of photography there are legitimate technical considerations. But when you line up a bunch of cameras that are essentially the same, what is the final arbiter of the purchase? And if GetDPI is any indication, when a new camera comes out followed by a huge numbers of pre-orders, I think drool is a bigger motivator than hunger. Now, if someone had a great H system and it was performing all the tasks it needed to, what is the motivation, at least in part, for a Leica S?

Don't get me wrong, I think this type of superficiality is really important. I can see why you would want to buy an S. And I did qualify that it had to work well for the photographer and realize a certain quality/look in the images. But the reason Pentax is not the death of the DF nor H is not on the spec sheet, is because of the coolness factor--those intangible qualities that drive our choices.

I don't mind admitting my superficiality. I loved shooting square. I had a perfectly adequate square camera. But that did not mean my eyes did not wander. And then one day the "perfect" square camera came out. I used it as my primary camera for over a decade. Made great work. It never let me down. But if I were rationally buying a 6x6 system, I would never have bought a Mamiya 6 as there are "better" systems/cameras out there for 6x6. Now, I could come up with all kinds of reasons why 6x6, why a rangefinder, why leaf shutters--you hear these reasons all the time. But none of that actually means I could not have done the same work with a different camera, a more practical camera. The Mamiya 6 just caught my fancy, my imagination. It was and is the bee's knees and it felt so great shooting it.

Marc, you may be impervious to these intangibles, I don't know. Most of my photographer friends and the folks here at GetDPI seems to be in love, or at least like, the equipment they shoot, even if they need certain professional or technical considerations. Many will accept the limitations of their choice to work with this equipment--Alpa TC, for example. If desire/coolness is not driving the choice, then what is?

I have found the only time folks are practical is when they are buying garbage bags...
I took your "cool" as an absolute … meaning it's the prime reason, or follow the pack because because everyone else thinks it is cool.

Per your example, my decision to move to the S system was actually rooted in practical considerations first, cool factor second.

I had held out with Hasselblad in hopes that they would produce a dual shutter camera rather than one restricted only to leaf shutter to max 1/800 (a hope I had mention on this forum many times). The S solved that problem, and I would NOT have considered the S had it been just a focal plane camera no matter now cool I may have thought it to be. If not for the S, I probably would have moved to Phase One, but only if they had upgraded their camera by then.

However, Leica was slow getting the CS lens versions out the door, so I kept my Hasselblad H until I had the Leica CS versions in the bag. In the middle of this process, Leica made it a bit easier by producing a H to S adapter which sped up the whole switch over.

Many think the Leica M(240) is the coolest M ever, and in many respects it is, but I passed on it because I do not like the images it produces.

That said, some are in love with technology, others with design … or both. We are visual animals and that weighs in when choosing between multiple things that (hopefully) first meet the needs of the photographer.

- Marc
 

tsjanik

Well-known member
............. The 35mm folks looking to jump in may see the Pentax as a very good enter point over there DSLR system and will stretch the budget some and also not lose what there 35mm can do feature wise. ...........


Guy:

You seem to understand the Pentax market strategy. From Pentax 645Z special page:
"Specifically, we see the PENTAX 645Z as a competitor to 35mm full frame cameras rather than just the medium format cameras offered by other companies"


Full page. Same link posted above (which has to do with the 645Z): PENTAX 645Z - Medium Format Digital Camera | RICOH IMAGING
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
That's true. The Art photography segment can be and is a profession.

I was confining it to the commercial pursuits being discussed, but you are right it can be more than that. I should have said a great part of pro "purpose" is to sell the work being done.

However, calling the whole discussion asinine is a bit over the top for this friendly site … :thumbdown:
?

If only Billy had used a smily emoticon :)

tsjanik-

Oddly, at the film forums there's hardly any bickering...or ego's.
 

shlomi

Member
i just want to say, that this whole debate is asinine and really rates as who cares? However, your definition is narrow. As there are lots of "pro" photographers that go out and shoot wildlife and landscapes and then sell their work, full time. Your definition implies that someone has to pay a photographer to go out and shoot for them to be a pro.
Introducing the word "asinine" is quite harsh and uncalled for.
If you feel the discussion has gone to areas that do not interest you, or even that you think are pointless, perhaps the best reaction is to do nothing. Going off topic is not illegal or immoral.

I would venture that the pro's that go out there looking for the striking picture and then sell it somehow, are not the majority of pros, or anywhere near that.

You don't think photography is cool?
"Cool" is a confusing word for me, as I would think 99% of humans would think none of this is cool. I think the operative word is "love" - do you love your equipment? And is that the reason you buy it or that you need it?

Isn't there a difference between "pro photographers" and "pro gear?"
It is possible to mark the line between pro and hobbyist photographers.
I don't think "pro gear" exists as such - there is high end gear which can be used by pros or hobbyists. Attaching the word pro to gear is a marketing trick used by manufacturers to entice hobbyists.

"Specifically, we see the PENTAX 645Z as a competitor to 35mm full frame cameras rather than just the medium format cameras offered by other companies"
That was the entire point I was trying to make earlier:
It would seem Pentax made a very nice camera.
...
I think it will take a bigger chunk from Canon/Nikon than from P1/H.
 
It is possible to mark the line between pro and hobbyist photographers.
I don't think "pro gear" exists as such - there is high end gear which can be used by pros or hobbyists. Attaching the word pro to gear is a marketing trick used by manufacturers to entice hobbyists.
We often see rather terrible "pro" photographers that somehow manage to sell stuff too, I think the word pro should only refer to a high technical and practical skill level, and the ability to adapt under time/pressure (not an armchair expert).

There really is no difference between pro or hobby gear, just the high-end, low-end and a bunch in between. However, high-end gear does tend to cater to the criteria of people who use cameras as a regular daily working tools, like tougher physical construction and better QC; but they are rarely significantly better in actual imaging characteristics.
 
I think that this is probably a little unfair because this really requires a new camera system than the DF/DF+ with EVF. Until then, no amount of talent is going to make the DF+ show focus peaking.

Now the Live View on the IQ250 showing focus peak - well that does sound like something that we'd hope that they could manage at some point.
I agree with your conclusion (do I have option to disagree with you? :)).

However, though IQ250 has very good Live View quality, I don't recall that it displays Focus Mask while focusing like Sony A7/A7R. It only shows the mask after taking the image like older IQ series.

So the point is, many of the features what < $2500 camera can do, $30,000+ camera can't do, though megapixels range becoming comparable (I understand overall MP alone doesn't determine ultimate image quality).

Though Phase backs works with excellent Tech camera lenses, but that should not be an excuse not to deliver a MF DSLR better than Sony / Pentax, if I compare the price.

Even usage of LS lenses with DF body are limited to strobe sync speed (not important for landscape photography).

C1 is also not the end of the world... I have seen impressive museum quality work out of P45 / P65+ / IQ180 + Adobe LR and PS combo. You can guess the eminent landscape photographer & PODAS / LULA instructor I'm talking about... just don't want to mention the name here as someone might through mud on those eminent landscape photographers.

Some of the comments I just find are more marketing oriented rather than discussing pure technical merits and demerits...
 

gazwas

Active member
There only only two types of Photographer, working and non working.

There is only two levels of camera equipment, affordable and expensive.

Everything in the middle is so completely subjective based on so many variable. Professional has no baring on the photographers ability, likewise how much you pay for you cameras often has more to do with your social status than quality of end result.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
I think the two types of photographer are... the ones who love to take photos and don't give a crap whether they're being paid or not, and the ones who are lucky enough to get paid for doing what they love... A photographers ambition is all the "purpose" they need.

The Pentax 645Z-

Now I get the distraction by some in this thread and the release of the Pentax 645z.

As it turns out the new weather resistant Pentax 645z has the same sensor (50+mp) as the Phase One IQ 250 and the H5D 50-C. It shoots HD video, ISO from 100 to 204,800, and with high speed sync will shoot with strobes (reduced power) up to 1/4000th sec., 4k interval movies, dual SD cards, USB 3.0 SS, rated shutter of 100,000 cycles, articulated LCD and the list goes on...
There is no doubt, this is a MFD that has many features only found in high end 35mm dslr...and so it should!
 

Shashin

Well-known member
There are three kind of photographers in this world. There are those that can count and those that can't. :)
 

gazwas

Active member
Major reason many if us are looking squarely at it too.
I think this Pentax will be a winner but without the availability of a decent TS-E lens, (and probably never will be) I find it hard to part with my 35mm Canon system especially with the news to expect a 45mm and 90mm TS-E replacement at Photokina.

Like was said earlier about Phase One, to me often the system is more important than the camera/chip size.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
BTW going off topic here is not a big deal the conversation was actually somewhat related and that's okay as long us was not something like rocket propulsion I think we are just fine. Also if you think something is asinine well just don't read it . Change the channel as everyone has a opinion good bad or indifferent. That's a human right

I'm at a camera store waiting for it to open. I could very well be getting in trouble. Wife's on a plane. Lol
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The word 'professional' is someone who does something as a profession. You can't change that definition. Regardless of skillset, know how, equipment or even experience. If you aren't making money from it you're not a professional. I think it's an important differentiation. If you aren't working in the field, under the pressure of having to make money from a certain skill set then your opinion on the profession has to be taken as anecdotal or based on theories and numbers rather than the sharing of real world experience. Not that it isn't valuable but it's far from the whole story.
I think this Pentax will be a winner but without the availability of a decent TS-E lens, (and probably never will be) I find it hard to part with my 35mm Canon system especially with the news to expect a 45mm and 90mm TS-E replacement at Photokina.

Like was said earlier about Phase One, to me often the system is more important than the camera/chip size.
Totally agree here. You buy a system been preaching that for years. One other point here do your homework and figure out those limitations and workarounds as well. Very important to have answers before you buy
 

shlomi

Member
For some reason I've missed this one and a bunch of others:

I dare to say that the client that count pixels is a minority, but I'm sure they exist and obviously you meet them, so you probably need MFD then and the clients can surely pay for that cost.

However for most it's about general printing needs, and those printing needs have not changed much since the best MF were at 22 megapixels not many years ago.
Pixel peeping client is for sure not the majority, but for instance dealing with products for large companies, they don't want to see non MF quality, especially if they paid premium.

Commercial today is not so much about printing, as it is about providing a file that the client feels can give him the maximum usefulness. That is why some of those clients pixel peep - to make sure they can crop and enlarge in the future even if they don't know exactly to what end right now.

What you've suggested about using low grade glass and then Photoshop to pop the image, is IMO a big mistake. If I'm committed to actually the best quality I can provide my clients (only technical here), and my competitor is cutting corners and trying to get to a similar result at lower costs, there will be enough clients who will be able to tell the difference. This is something I can speak of from experience.


As an example I know of a very successful Swedish architectural photographer that has MFD tech cam (Sinar Artec), but it sits on a shelf as the D800 with tilt-shift lenses reached the quality level needed for his professional work and he found the workflow to be more convenient, and his artistic work is mostly made on large format film rather than digital.
That just means that guy bought the wrong camera, that didn't meet his needs.
If the MFD stays on the shelf, it means you've made a mistake and of course you should sell it.
I was referring to those who use it and it's right for them.


Many instead use MFD from personal reasons, they appreciate the quality themselves, but actually don't need it for satisfying their customers. And then there are different personalities, some want the best because they just like to use the best, and some don't want to spend more money on (any type of) gear than needed and instead get more profit. The same can be seen when it comes to picking a car for professional tasks, some pick the most cost effective alternative that does the job, others pick something extra because they know they will be driving it and like to have something extra. I would not call the more economical person the less professional one... some are just more gear junkies than others :)
I don't disagree, and I never said every pro needs to use MFD.
What I meant to say is that if you are using the system professionally and it's suitable for your needs, then it doesn't make sense for you to sell it for something lesser just for the money difference.

"If when you're in financial trouble you sell your MFD, I think it means you're not a pro."

This may be a bit harsh. In this dog-eat-dog financial environment the photography landscape has changed considerably for any number of hard working pros … and it is littered with the bleached bones of those who didn't adapt.

I have a close friend who's studio had 9 MFD stations working 24/7 on a large food account. He did it for years and dedicated a great deal of resources to that end. Recently at the corporate level they decided to pull it in-house, and gave him a week's notice. He'll likely replace part of that, and was smart enough to financially prepare for that eventuallity … but it will take time. Meanwhile, he has a crushing over-head to maintain. Reduction of that overhead is clearly the professional thing to do.
My original hell-raising remark was in retrospect excessive and not comprehensively accurate.

Your friend with the 9*24*7 stations is a very unusual case.
His past is the abnormality - it doesn't make economic sense for a commercial company to pay so much. If they really do it all the time, any calculation will show tremendous savings by bringing it in house.


If no has noticed, advertising has seriously shifted to web based presentations … how much resolution do you need for a sub-one meg., sRGB image? Count those pixels.
A lot of the current work is for web, for sure.
But 80mp isn't the only advantage of MFD.
There is diffraction which is critical for products, and the glass for P1 is just miles better than Canon - in the normal to short tele range. It can be very apparent in web applications.

I sold all my Hasselbald gear (H4D/40 and H4D/60) and used the money to treat myself to a Lexus for my S2 to ride in:ROTFL:
Exactly! You sold the hardware which was not working - that makes sense.
You don't sell the one that's working and earning.
 
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