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H4D-60, The Future of Hasselblad, and Always Waiting For the Next Big Thing

fotografz

Well-known member
I think there's plenty of evidence. Hasselblad is passed around from owner to owner like a bad penny. Phase is constantly churning new products that are significantly better every time - that takes a lot of money in R&D budgets.




I have a source inside the company who assured me that the body will be out by the end of this year. Let's talk again on Christmas and see if I am mistaken or not.



Seems maybe you haven't worked with the new generation backs from Phase. They are very different from the previous generation - which was on the same level as Hasselblad. The tethering - FW or USB - is totally different, and much better. As far as IQ, I can see a clear difference between the last gen to the one before last.

fotografz (on your side) just said this: The IQ from the 50 (Kodak) is different from the 60 (Dalsa) … so it isn't just choosing one that may be cheaper (depending on what and how you shoot).

So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?



By anti consumer I did not mean the dealer attitude (don't get me started), but closing the system to any external building blocks, and forcing the user to change body and back at the same time. It seems a large segment of the market did not appreciate that. And what about the ridiculous Hasselblad branded trash cameras that appeared inexplicably? That did not help build brand confidence.
Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say, or interpolate them to arrive at some self-serving conclusion of your own.

The Hasselblad 50 back is stellar, and NOT like the 39 meg Kodak sensors that the two companies once shared. The 50 was a technological advancement over the previous backs, and is a choice which Phase does't offer … as was the H4D/40 over the older 31 meg sensors, a 40 meg back which, IMO, out-performed the Phase 40 meg version (high ISO IQ without pixel binning, and longer exposures).

The 50 sensor is the basis of the Muti-Shot backs including the H5D/200, which stands alone in the industry for color reproduction and detail capture … despite wishful thinking propaganda to the contrary.

The difference between the Hasselblad 50 and 60 lie with the differences between a Kodak sensor and a Dalsa sensor … different characteristics which offer choices … so it isn't just a price based, but a use based consideration.

Thanks,

- Marc

Oh, BTW, when Hasselblad closed their system I didn't care a twit. Why would I? The only other full featured, supported 645 still in production was the Mamiya camera … why would I want that over the H camera? :)
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
The 50 sensor is the basis of the Muti-Shot backs including the H5D/200, which stands alone in the industry for color reproduction and detail capture … despite wishful thinking propaganda to the contrary.


Thanks,

- Marc

I don't believe we can say stand alone, Marc. Let's not forget the Sinarback multi-shot products, like the SinarBack eXact, which produces the only 16 shot capture sequence from a 50 megapixel sensor, resulting in an uninterpolated raw file in excess of 1GB.



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Can I start off saying this is not anti Phase One as I think their equipment is top notch. I'm offering a balanced opinion to what I feel is a bias reply above.



Phase One, the employee owned company that just sold a 60% stake in its business to a venture capital firm. Such firms usually are only interested in milking profits. Why did Phase sell if things are so amazingly rosy?? I'm not saying the move will be a failure or the compay has not made great profits however both are equally a concern when investing MFD levels of money.

If investors are only concerned with milking profits, as you put it, then doesn't that imply a company who just invested into Phase One sees promising things in the future? Perhaps. No one can say with certainty. But it appears to me that Phase One has been putting out some excellent products, products that have pretty dramatically advanced the category from a technical perspective, and clearly have the talent for more. Perhaps their technical talent and ambitions outstripped their financial resources. For now, that's how I'm choosing to look at it. It doesn't smell to me of a company that was struggling and needed help to survive.


Is that the camera that was promised for the end of the year from the MD of Phase One back in 2011? When it comes it will be amazing but looooooong over due! Until it does arrive, hinging your purchase decision on a rumour that has been proved embarrassingly incorrect for so many years is questionable?

When did Phase One ever publicly promise a release date for this new camera?


- Can I use a HB back on a Phase Camera (not that I'd want too)?

If Hasselblad made a digital back in Mamiya mount, yes, sure you could. The older Imacon/Hasselblad digital backs with custom interfaces still work with Mamiya/Phase One 645 cameras.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

gazwas

Active member
If investors are only concerned with milking profits, as you put it, then doesn't that imply a company who just invested into Phase One sees promising things in the future? Perhaps. No one can say with certainty. But it appears to me that Phase One has been putting out some excellent products, products that have pretty dramatically advanced the category from a technical perspective, and clearly have the talent for more. Perhaps their technical talent and ambitions outstripped their financial resources. For now, that's how I'm choosing to look at it. It doesn't smell to me of a company that was struggling and needed help to survive.
Like I said, I'm not saying its a bad thing but you nor I know what will happen so hardly a biases to bash HB.


When did Phase One ever publicly promise a release date for this new camera?
You are kidding right - the P1 marketing machine (and dealers) all (did) go on and on about it - STILL nothing.


If Hasselblad made a digital back in Mamiya mount, yes, sure you could. The older Imacon/Hasselblad digital backs with custom interfaces still work with Mamiya/Phase One 645 cameras.
Completely missed the point my post - you could employ both systems are closed/open.
 

shlomi

Member
Can I start off saying this is not anti Phase One as I think their equipment is top notch. I'm offering a balanced opinion to what I feel is a bias reply above.
I don't understand why you consider my stand unbalanced. I very clearly conceded that H has a better body and better lenses. I do stand on the point that Phase has better backs. I really didn't foresee such an argument about a point which to me was pretty self evident. Let's agree that they have different backs, and anyone can decide for themselves which are better.


Phase One, the employee owned company that just sold a 60% stake in its business to a venture capital firm. Such firms usually are only interested in milking profits. Why did Phase sell if things are so amazingly rosy?? I'm not saying the move will be a failure or the compay has not made great profits however both are equally a concern when investing MFD levels of money.
I was not aware of that - I don't know everything.

HB had a great camera with lots of great features from the go and still have a much better camera that can focus more accurately, faster to operate (shutter lag on the Mamiya used to be shocking), much better camera/lens profiles, leaf shutters in all their lenses............ and the list goes on. Horse for courses as what Phase lacks, HB more than makes up for and vise versa.
I've conceded all that from the get go.


Is that the camera that was promised for the end of the year from the MD of Phase One back in 2011? When it comes it will be amazing but looooooong over due! Until it does arrive, hinging your purchase decision on a rumour that has been proved embarrassingly incorrect for so many years is questionable?
I've followed that company for the past five years pretty closely. This body was never promised before. They said they are working on it and hope to have it soon. What I've heard now off the record is that it is coming this year. As I said, perhaps I am misinformed, but my estimate is that they are getting to the finish line about now. Also to be sure there was no official announcement yet, so if it doesn't happen you can blame it on me, not on them.


Based on this reply, are you saying you've actually shot the HB with 40Mpix and 50Mpix chips or just basing it on what you think is the case?
I have not. I have used H systems only anecdotally but I've had chances to examine files.

- You can use a modern Phase back on a HB camera with HB lenses - how is that closed?
- Can I use a HB back on a Phase Camera (not that I'd want too)?
HB backs are designed to work with with body for focus info, lens profiles etc. Without tight integration that would not be possible. Last time I looked, upgrade prices for P1 and HB were very similar so not sure of the whole cost to change argument. Lots of people moaned about being locked in to begin with before they realised the benefits but I don't hear people complain now (HB users speak up)?
I think you know very well what I was talking about. We were all here when H closed their system off. They've opened it up only after losing in court. Until about three months ago H4X was not available without trade-in! You can't really say that the P system is similarly closed, as P makes a point of allowing its users to mix and match in very many combinations. H even put their V system out of compatibility which shows their state of mind - similar to a little company called Apple - many like this mindset, but not all do.

Can't say it bothers me that much and as I don't buy that sort of camera - why should it? If they can sell them, whats wrong with making cash for future development?
Making a joke of your name is not the end of the world, but it's not the start of a new better one either.
 
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Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Like I said, I'm not saying its a bad thing but you nor I know what will happen so hardly a biases to bash HB.
I didn't say you bashed anyone.



You are kidding right - the P1 marketing machine (and dealers) all (did) go on and on about it - STILL nothing.
There has never been a public announcement of a date for a completely new camera release that I am aware of. Certainly we as dealers have never posted any such information. If I am wrong, please show me.



Completely missed the point my post - you could employ both systems are closed/open.
I understand what your post was about. But you shouldn't post a point that does nothing to support your argument - the fact is yes you can use any digital back made for the mount on a Mamiya/Phase One 645 camera. That includes Phase One, of course, Leaf, of course, Hasselblad - if they made one, and Sinar - who do.

For the record I've never made a big deal out of closed and open (others have), and today it is mostly a moot point.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I don't believe we can say stand alone, Marc. Let's not forget the Sinarback multi-shot products, like the SinarBack eXact, which produces the only 16 shot capture sequence from a 50 megapixel sensor, resulting in an uninterpolated raw file in excess of 1GB.



Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Sorry Steve, I forgot that one has to have their lawyer prepare any answer regarding Hasselblad when responding on this forum … :ROTFL:

The frame of reference was the Hasselblad verses Phase discussion. I don't think the OP was looking at Sinar … but maybe he should?

- Marc
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Sorry Steve, I forgot that one has to have their lawyer prepare any answer regarding Hasselblad when responding on this forum … :ROTFL:

The frame of reference was the Hasselblad verses Phase discussion. I don't think the OP was looking at Sinar … but maybe he should?

- Marc

Don't worry Marc, I doubt that legal counsel is required here. :clap:

Just for the sake of clarification since you brought up the multi-shot products. And no, I don't know if the OP should look at Sinar or not, but if he does, it would help if he carried a computer along with him, since tethered capture is the only option for Sinarbacks.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

Drennon

New member
One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.
 

RVB

Member
One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.
Someone posted a good article on this subject comparing a Red to a Hasselblad h4D-40 ( http://fstoppers.com/hasselblad-vs-red )and the Red was clearly inferior to the MF files..

Rob
 

gazwas

Active member
I don't understand why you consider my stand unbalanced.
Mmmm........

However Phase backs have huge advantages at this time, not just in long exposures, but also in user interface, computer interface, and general image quality.
So we can agree that H backs not 60 have lower IQ than current Phase backs?
Have I misunderstood the meaning of your posts as they seem anything but balanced?
 

gazwas

Active member
I didn't say you bashed anyone.
Have you been reading a different thread Steve - see post #31 above. If that is not HB bashing, I don't know what is.

There has never been a public announcement of a date for a completely new camera release that I am aware of. Certainly we as dealers have never posted any such information. If I am wrong, please show me.
Its like the twilight zone this. Certainly since 2011, and there was talk in 2010 when I bought a P65+ of a new camera around the corner. Correct, no dates were given but official announcements were made by P1 of its existence. Posts from users and dealers always came up regarding this camera in development and Digital backs were sold and DF/DF+ inadequacies were quashed with talk of the new camera coming soon.

By the very fact that P1 announced officially its existence and talk of camera development suggested is was always due soon, at the end of the year, at Photokina etc. Now talk from P1 and dealers is scarce as its become a white elephant. Hopefully at Photokina this year we'll be lucky.

I understand what your post was about. But you shouldn't post a point that does nothing to support your argument - the fact is yes you can use any digital back made for the mount on a Mamiya/Phase One 645 camera. That includes Phase One, of course, Leaf, of course, Hasselblad - if they made one, and Sinar - who do.
I'm sorry, again you seem to jump to the conclusions when all I'm doing is disbursing assumptions made by previous posts. My point is clear, HB are criticised for being a locked system when its not as far as you can use other cameras or use HB cameras with others backs.
 

Miller

Member
One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.
:worthless: AND VIDEO?

The day I would have to shoot video in order to pull a still :eek: , well, I just don't see myself doing that.
But then, I am a real dino as I don't own a cam that can shoot video.
Still very happy with an H3DII 39, despite the apparent :toocool: inferior image quality compared to the somewhat pricy Phase backs. I even bought a secondhand H1 to shoot B&W film again.
The occasional portrait is quite doable, despite the absence of true focus.
Owning a camera is better than waiting for the next best thing, I would say.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
It's funny that people talk about needing a lawyer to represent them here. I'm a lawyer in real life, and am often amused at the legalistic arguing that goes on it internet forums. Some posts read like legal arguments.

The difference is that in most legal forums there are only three arguments, and then it ends. The party with the burden of proof argues, the opposing party responds, and then the proponent gets to reply. Only on TV (and the internet) do the arguments go on and on. Of course in court the issues aren't so important: merely often lengthy prison terms and the occasional death judgment.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Have you been reading a different thread Steve - see post #31 above. If that is not HB bashing, I don't know what is.



Its like the twilight zone this. Certainly since 2011, and there was talk in 2010 when I bought a P65+ of a new camera around the corner. Correct, no dates were given but official announcements were made by P1 of its existence. Posts from users and dealers always came up regarding this camera in development and Digital backs were sold and DF/DF+ inadequacies were quashed with talk of the new camera coming soon.

By the very fact that P1 announced officially its existence and talk of camera development suggested is was always due soon, at the end of the year, at Photokina etc. Now talk from P1 and dealers is scarce as its become a white elephant. Hopefully at Photokina this year we'll be lucky.



I'm sorry, again you seem to jump to the conclusions when all I'm doing is disbursing assumptions made by previous posts. My point is clear, HB are criticised for being a locked system when its not as far as you can use other cameras or use HB cameras with others backs.
That's right - you're not the HB basher, you're pointing out the HB basher. Ok. Since I'm neither basher nor endorser, my only point was to not comment on any Hasselblad financial rumors, but I will post my opinion about what the Phase One situation means to me and I disagreed with your perspective. That's all. That's ok, right? For me to disagree?

As far as the new camera and announcements, all that has ever happened is Phase One acknowledged they are working on one and it is coming. They have never given a release date nor a formal impending announcement. The closest perhaps was last Photokina when it was anticipated that might be the date of release. Perhaps it was! (and this anticipation never came from Phase One, it came from dealers and photographers). Instead, they very, very modestly tweaked the DF+. Yes, big letdown. But there've been no promises broken. Perhaps they thought they were close and decided they wanted to go for something better. This happens all the time.

The delay for product delivery is often not that something doesn't work right, but in the process of development, they realize something can work better than they thought - but will take more time. I have absolutely zero problem with Phase One not releasing a camera because they are making it better than they originally anticipated. Should somebody be cautious about any concrete plans for a delivery date? Sure.

I have nothing more to say about open/closed as I have never involved myself too deeply in this debate and don't plan to at this point.

David - should you buy an H4D-60? Now? If you can't wait until Photokina (about 3+ months away), then sure, why not? Otherwise, if you opt to look at a Phase One IQ160/260 or Leaf Credo 60 now, perhaps you should consider the extended warranty for a free platform swap to hedge your bets.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

gazwas

Active member
That's right - you're not the HB basher, you're pointing out the HB basher. Ok. Since I'm neither basher nor endorser, my only point was to not comment on any Hasselblad financial rumors, but I will post my opinion about what the Phase One situation means to me and I disagreed with your perspective. That's all. That's ok, right? For me to disagree?
Balance my friend!

I have spent a lot with P1 over the years and do not regret any of it or have an axe to grind.

A forum that has no official Hasselblad representation but is very Phase centric which is possibly partly due to its dominated by a Phase One dealer presence needs some impartiality which I offered. I don't sell digital backs but enjoy using them so have no horse in the race.

That's all. That's ok, right? For me to suggest people try rather than accept half truths and rumour?
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Balance my friend!

I have spent a lot with P1 over the years and do not regret any of it or have an axe to grind.

A forum that has no official Hasselblad representation but is very Phase centric which is possibly partly due to its dominated by a Phase One dealer presence needs some impartiality which I offered. I don't sell digital backs but enjoy using them so have no horse in the race.

That's all. That's ok, right? For me to suggest people try rather than accept half truths and rumour?

Mr G, I suppose it's ok for you to suggest some impartiality. If there is such a thing... :rolleyes:

I'm not sure there is, so as much as possible, I like there to be factual information in any event.

This forum has no official Phase One or Hasselblad presence. It has many users and several dealers, not all of whom only sell Phase One.

I've never understood the "Phase bias" angle on forums. Surely there's Hasselblad and Phase users. I see nothing stopping either from piping up, so don't know why one side would feel slighted. And almost all slights (should) come from users, not dealers. A dealer should not comment or at least inaccurately disparage a product they do not sell, nor should they produce unrealistic fantasies about products they do sell.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
One other item I forgot to bring up in my initial post is the proposition that motion cameras (ARRI, RED, Canon C-series) are the future of still photography. In other words, just pull the still you want from a motion file. In my exploration of medium format digital, I have been advised that the way to go is towards something like a RED Epic and do this.

The thought of photographing this way is pretty unappealing to me, though I'm sure some will go that direction. It seems to me that a medium format digital stills camera will still be able to do things that RED Epic just could not quite do.
Shooting video and shooting stills are two distinctly different art forms. With video, you work along a timeline, and framing, DOF etc. are decided by the way you want to tell the story. The best still photos at the location/event in question may or may not exist along that line. Shooting video to grab a still will often mean bad video or bad photography, sometimes both.

A Land Rover can take you along the road or over the mountains, but along the road, a Camry would be a faster, more comfortable proposition.
 

BANKER1

Member
Hey Steve. Take it from me. There is definitely a Phase bias on this forum. But that is OK with me. Most of us understand this and accept it for what it is. In life we see bias in most areas, and it is our duty to try and sort it out and separate it from the facts.

Greg
 
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