Used MF body & back - Worth it?

[debabrata.ray]

Hi All,

I currently use a Nikon D800E system along with an assortment of some lenses i.e. a Zeiss 21 f/2.8, Sigma 35 f/1.4 Art series. I use this system primarily for landscapes, cityscapes, seascapes etc. I have for long being wanting to move to a medium format system, however the cost has always been a prohibiting factor.
I have recently been given an offer for a PhaseOne 645DF body + Phase One P45+ digital back + Schneider 80mm f/2.8 lens - all for roughly US$ 8200. Its used equipment and the sales rep told me that the camera has been sent to Phase One for replacing the low pass filter; and once back - I could make this deal.
I wanted your guidance on a) whether this is a good deal and b) what are things I should watch out for / look for when making this deal.
I'm a novice as far as MF is concerned and this would be my first real MF purchase.

I have time till next Monday to make a decision.

Your guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards
Deb

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

The DF has a shutter life of 30K actuations. You might want to check just how used it is.

 

[debabrata.ray]

The DF has a shutter life of 30K actuations. You might want to check just how used it is.

Thanks a lot Ben - thats very useful input. Wow I didn't know such expensive equipment would have such a little shutter life. The D800e is tested for 250K actuations...

By the way how will I be able to tell how many actuations have already been done on that body?

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Only Phase One know apparently. Keep in mind that many have managed far more than that but the DF is rated rather low. The DF is expensive because it can be, not because in any way whatsoever it deserves to be.

 

[GrahamWelland]

I would say that this is a good deal at that price.

I would assume that the back is getting the UV/IR filter replaced (there are no filters in the body) so I would want to ensure that there is no sensor damage - if phase one are replacing the filter then this should be assumed that it will be ok. Also it's important that the firmware is the latest version too.

 

[debabrata.ray]

Thanks Ben for the response.

Graham, thanks for your input. I'll have to double check with the sales rep then. I have to admit though that I didn't catch exactly whether the replacement was in the back or the body. May have been the back.

 

[Paul2660]

OK, the other side.

You are shooting a D800E at 36MP, you are looking at a 40MP used P45+ that realistically has a max iso of 400 and really only max useable for prints larger than 16 x 20 iso 200.

The P45+ has a terrible LCD basically worthless for any image feedback, so if you decide to move to a tech camera later on, things will get worse not better. Zooming to 100%, you can't tell anything about image details or focus, and looking at the normal display about all that is helpful is the histogram. The LCD drains the battery pretty fast also as the power management of the older P45+ is not that good.

The D800E has a DR that the P45+ touch IMO, I shot a P45+ for almost 4 years. The P45+ has a very limited top end on highlights, very very easy to blow the highlights. Shadow recovery is terrible and you need to bracket most of the shots to get a good exposure in the shadows and then trap a good highlight.

Trust me, the image quality of the P45+ can not touch a D800E and if someone is telling you it can, they are doing you a dis-service. Don't rush out and do this deal. You are gain approx 3MP over the D800E, so resolution issue are moot. DR is so much better on the D800E, that you will be probably disappointed when you shoot a P45+.

Sure the P45+ can shoot for 1 hour, in certain conditions, i.e. out door temps equal or less than 69 degrees F and moderate to low humidity. Even then the 1 hour to 30 minute output is not going to touch the same times from a Nikon D800E. BTW, can the P45+ you are looking reach 1 hour with a good exposure? Many were sold that could not, mine was one of them and to get there, it needs to go back to Phase One for a controller card upgrade, not under warranty now. I would double check on that also.

To spend this much on a system that is so limited in it's abilities compared to the D800E to me is not a good decision and once you start shooting the camera you will be I feel disappointed in the output.

If this was as P65+, I would not be saying this.

If possible, try to demo this setup before you commit to the purchase.

One other note, you mentioned the lens was the Schneider 80mm. Is it the LS version with the leaf shutter? Do you need 1/1600 of second flash? If not there are many used versions of this lens on ebay or KEH for a lot less. There is no optical difference between the Phase One 80mm D F2.8 and Schneider 80mm F2.8 expect for the shutter, leaf shutter.

You also have the DF body to consider, again coming from a modern Nikon DSLR, you are in for a major disappointment. Slow AF, not accurate AF, 3 AF point, only 1 is real. Short battery life on AA's unless you purchase the 400.00 Lion battery back. Viewfinder in not very bright and manual focus can be hard in low to moderate light. No communication with the back so your camera settings are done on the camera, back setting on the limited use LCD on the P45+.

I know, all sounds very negative. Just want to give you a realistic idea of what you will get. If you didn't have the D800E and a such better sensor, then things might be different. Also if this was a good deal, they would not be rushing things.

Paul

 

[debabrata.ray]

Hey Paul, thanks for your candid feedback. The points you've listed out were exactly the ones running on my mind as well. While I do get a bigger physical sensor with this purchase, but is it worth the $$$ for the upgrade and what do I get in return... The more I research and think-through this, the more I see this deal making lesser and lesser sense to me. I am actually quite happy with the D800E as it is and for now maybe I'll rest this thought unless someone convinces me otherwise. I will however go and demo the system before making a decision.

 

[Paul2660]

The key is, your last sentence, use both side by side in your normal workflow and see if you can justify the expense.

I used the P45+ from March 2008 till November 2011 as my primary Landscape camera. At the time I was using Canon's mainly the 5D MK2 and stitching for resolution gain. I still stitched with the P45+, nodal.

If the D800 had been around, at the time, it would have been a very simple call for me. If Nikon made a high quality TS-E series of lenses up the sensor of the D800, owning the MF gear I have now would also be a tough call.

As a landscape shooter, the only enabler for me and a P45+ would be a tech camera as the back will allow much more shift before pixel cross talk/color sat loss and shift begin. Still the feedback from the LCD would make checking your focus hard at best. If the P45+ allowed for a USB connection then the Surface 2 or 3 solution would be great. The Firewire connection limits you a laptop for tethering.

There were great deals on the Credo 40 and IQW140 a while back. Not sure if any of these still exist. They were more than the 8200.00 but still within possible reach. The dealers that frequent the site can add more on that. I believe the Credo 40 came with the DF+ also.

Might try reaching out to Digital Transitions out of NY or Capture Integration in Atlanta.

Paul

 

[f8orbust]

Is it a DF and a P45 you're being offered or a DF+ and a P45+ ? From your OP I'm not sure if the '+' is attached to the 'DF' and 'P45' or is simply part of the sentence?

If you've been offered a P45+ along with the DF+ and lens, then from a $ perspective, that sounds like a good deal; P45+'s still go for around US$9.5k on eBay. If it's a P45 and a DF, then I would pass.

However, and here's my next 2c, I feel we're in an era now where, @40MP - 50MP and below, if you do not intend to stick this on a tech camera, then it makes no sense whatsoever investing $$$$ in a DB - you would be better off with a 35mm DSLR - D800 etc. If you do intend to use it on a technical camera, then - despite a few idiosyncrasies (and, all digital backs have these), the P45+ is the highest resolution digital back that will work with pretty much any modern lens out there. Want to shift it 17mm on a S/K 28mm Super-Digitar? No problem. By comparison, the $40K IQ280 can be shifted, er, 0mm. I think this is one of the reasons why the used value of the P45+ is still high; the upgrade/cross-grade/downgrade path from the IQ160/180 to the IQ260 was so steep, that people kept their IQ160/180 and used a fraction of the money they were being asked to handover by P1 to instead by a P45+ for the long exposure capability. Back in the days of film we could carry round multiple emulsions to meet the requirements of the job; unfortunately DBs are so expensive that the price precludes us from doing something similar (for the vast majority of photographers at least). Personally, my dream set up for tech cam would be an IQ180 (for single shots) and a P45+ (for stitching and/or long exposures). If I was not shooting on a tech cam and did not need 60MP or 80MP I would steer clear of the whole MFDB segment; it's a money pit. Also, this is a Photokina year, so I would at least wait until I saw what new tech is going to be released. In all likelihood Canon will reveal some completely new wrt their sensor technology (but don't expect 80MP!)

In conclusion - if you intend to simply use the P45/+ on a DSLR then you'll be disappointed in the long run. I wouldn't do it. In fact, if you were even asking about using a 50MP IQ250 solely on a DF+ I'd tell you to put your $35k back in your pocket and stick with a DSLR, there's simply not enough increase in IQ to justify the trade-off - of more bulk with the DF, a smaller lens line-up, huge initial cost and massive depreciation.

However, if you intend to go down the tech cam route, then I maintain the P45+ is a great choice. Yes you do need to be careful of blowing the highlights, the screen isn't great (but I only ever use it to check the histogram), battery life can be poor (solution: carry a few batteries) and deep shadows can be noisy (but this is an issue with all CCDs - have a look at the shadow noise on any recent DB and in comparison to a D800 and it'll look bad; fortunately in print this is hardly ever an issue if handled correctly).

Jim

P.S. As a P45+ shooter, I think Paul is being a little harsh. Remember, it was once the IQ280 of its day, and the great images people made with it then (and subsequently) are just as achievable now (moreso in fact given improvements in post-processing software).

P.P.S. Quick afterthought: Maybe the 645Z could be an option - about the same price as the kit you're being offered - have a look at the write-up on LuLa - sounds interesting. When the 645Z's dngs are converted to IIQs in order to trick C1 and allow import, the images look identical to ones straight out of the IQ250. Same sensor after all, and with digital output there's no room for P1 to claim a 'secret sauce' wrt the A/D convertor (because there isn't one). Makes you wonder about the additional $25k that P1 charges - and you don't even get a camera for that.

 

[GrahamWelland]

I'm surprised at the negativity towards the P45+ / DF / 80LS combo. That price is excellent and however you look at it, the P45+ was the cream of the P+ backs until the last P65/40+ models came along. The files will definitely look different to those from a D800/A7R etc and for some people using the larger format is a pleasure vs a chore. Don't discount also the different aspect ratio from the P45+ which also appeals to some people (ok, maybe it's just me) vs 3:2 which has never gel'd.

Is it the best bang for buck? No, probably not, but then again is any MF digital solution these days?

Tech cams ... That's a whole other discussion and bottomless money pit.

 

[Paul2660]

Reality can be negative at times. If the OP didn't already have a D800e and was experienced with it, sure it might be a different story. But again they are coming from:

1. A D800 camera moving to the DF or DF+, not sure if it really matters, both can't compare in feature function to any modern DSLR body. The OP has used one and will be in for a bit of surprise with the other.

2. DR, Sorry, to me there just is no comparison. I don't feel I am being harsh on the P45+, as I just don't see the same image quality that others seem to feel it has for 3x the price of a new D810 or basically a new 645Z. The P45+ has a very narrow range before the high lights are blown, and totally blown no magic in C1 will recover them. The shadows are mushy and details not there, unless you underexpose by as much as 1.5 stops for just shadows, i.e. bracket.

I also don't feel that the new CCD's from Dalsa have this same issue as at base iso 50 on the 160 or 260, you can still hold a very good DR range. Highlights are much much more forgiving and you have a lot more push in the shadows. The trick to figure out just where the exposure needs to be as you can expose to the right for the shadows and see a lot of blinking warnings on the LCD, but in post, the image is fine.

3. Jim, I agree with you at the time of it's announcement the P45+ was the IQ280 of it's day, it's day of 2008 when there was no 35mm DSLR, CMOS or CCD that could get close. At the time my 1ds MKII was not much more than a iso 100 to 400 camera either. But CMOS has changed quite a bit and CCD only a bit.

Sure the price offered is a value, but it's all used, and out of warranty, out of the ability to get a value add warranty. When or if the DF breaks or has problems, which is likely if used a lot, you send it in for moderate repair. IF the P45+ breaks, you may or may not be able to have Phase One fix it, either due to the cost of the repair or lack of parts. Most P45+'s have dropped of any remaining value add warranty and Kodak is not making the chip anymore.

Sorry if I sound negative, as the P45+ made a lot of good landscape shots for me, and from that I have generated a lot of sales. But at the same time, things are way different now. Even Phase One is admitting that CMOS can equal the look of MFD CCD's. The CMOS chip in the 250 is going to do a lot more than that.

I also agree if you are headed to a tech solution the P45+ is a great back as it will take pretty much any lens out there and give you massive movements. If the OP is thinking long term of a tech camera then this deal does make more sense I totally agree. As of now Nikon can't begin to get there with their lineup of TS-E glass, Canon's are great but won't work on Nikon.

However I fully realize that what works for me, won't work for others. The best bet is to demo it side by side and make the decision.

Heck, it makes sense to buy it anyway, at 8.2K, then trade it in for 20K to Phase One on a new IQ250 as they are offering deals like that now. See previous post in this forum.

Paul

 

[malmac]

You are close to affording the Pentax Z - that is where I would go. Then you are getting into MFD at a reasonable price with a 50Mp CMOS sensor.

A bit more cash but less buyer remorse at the end point.


Mal
IQ 180, 645DF - so this is not bias talking.

 

[Ken_R]

Hi All,

I currently use a Nikon D800E system along with an assortment of some lenses i.e. a Zeiss 21 f/2.8, Sigma 35 f/1.4 Art series. I use this system primarily for landscapes, cityscapes, seascapes etc. I have for long being wanting to move to a medium format system, however the cost has always been a prohibiting factor.
I have recently been given an offer for a PhaseOne 645DF body + Phase One P45+ digital back + Schneider 80mm f/2.8 lens - all for roughly US$ 8200. Its used equipment and the sales rep told me that the camera has been sent to Phase One for replacing the low pass filter; and once back - I could make this deal.
I wanted your guidance on a) whether this is a good deal and b) what are things I should watch out for / look for when making this deal.
I'm a novice as far as MF is concerned and this would be my first real MF purchase.

I have time till next Monday to make a decision.

Your guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards
Deb

I would not buy it unless I was after the look of what that particular back (the P45+) can produce. It can do very long exposures (don't know how practical that is with the DF body) and of course the large sensor has different depth of field characteristics which are specially cool when shooting people with normal to tele lenses wide open. You can also mount it on a tech camera and use it with a wide range of lenses.

The P45+ however is an older generation back and it is not nearly as convenient and pleasurable to use as the much newer (and more expensive) and superb IQ1x and IQ2x series phase one backs. The P45+ is slower and has a really crappy lcd screen.

But to buy it just because you are getting a deal I think it's a mistake. First determine what you really want / need, regardless of price.

For the money The Nikon D800E is very hard to beat for landscape, specially with top end lenses like the zeiss, it is a superb value.

If you want to get different results (not necessarily better, but different) then there are lot's of options in the medium format digital world at good prices.

But, To handily beat the Nikon in most situations with wide angle lenses you are looking into the 60 and 80 MP IQ backs and rodenstock lenses, which of course, are not cheap. Some schneider wides work well with the 60mp backs and are a good, slightly lower cost alternative.

Regarding medium format digital SLR options there are just not that many good wide angle lens alternatives. The Leica S system has superb wide angle lenses. The Hasselblad H system has the good 24 and 28mm lenses and the PhaseOne system has the good 28mm lenses. (similar to Mamiya 28mm). Pentax has decent 35mm Focal length lenses for the 645D and 645z system (the 35mm FA (AF) and manual focus 35mm A are easy to get used) But that s about it in regards to wide angle medium format SLR lenses. There are the hartblei and ALPA fps systems that allow the use of 35mm lenses like the Canon TS_E series which in some cases have image circles large enough to cover even the largest MFDB sensors. But they are very expensive also.

 

[Ed Hurst]

Not forgetting the 25mm lens options for the 645D/Z

 

[iiiNelson]

Not forgetting the 25mm lens options for the 645D/Z

Well the Pentax 55 should give them a similar FOV as the 80 on the P45.

 

[Stan ROX]

Hi All,

I currently use a Nikon D800E system along with an assortment of some lenses i.e. a Zeiss 21 f/2.8, Sigma 35 f/1.4 Art series. I use this system primarily for landscapes, cityscapes, seascapes etc. I have for long being wanting to move to a medium format system, however the cost has always been a prohibiting factor.
I have recently been given an offer for a PhaseOne 645DF body + Phase One P45+ digital back + Schneider 80mm f/2.8 lens - all for roughly US$ 8200. Its used equipment and the sales rep told me that the camera has been sent to Phase One for replacing the low pass filter; and once back - I could make this deal.
I wanted your guidance on a) whether this is a good deal and b) what are things I should watch out for / look for when making this deal.
I'm a novice as far as MF is concerned and this would be my first real MF purchase.

I have time till next Monday to make a decision.

Your guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards
Deb

Regardless of beeing it "a good deal", there are many alternatives. It looks your dealer has pointed you out as a "good victim" for his sales activities.

A used Hasselblad H3DII-31 gives you the same IQ with a less monetary effort. It's a good starting point for your entrance into the DMF and goes for less money than your actual offering.

If needed, you can loan a higher-end body for specific work or upgrade later into the wonderful H4D with TrueFocus or H5D.

From my actual technical perspective, the Phase One camera offer is for sure #4 in the ranking (when compared with Leica, Hasselblad, Pentax). The backs may be great, but the camera ...

From the financial perspective, there are better deals on the H side. As PhaseOne has a very strict program to buy back used equipment, there are less used offers in the market. Hasselblad cameras are very widely spread and you should be able to get a similar offer for about 5 -6 k$.

S.

 

[Stan ROX]

Hi All,

I have time till next Monday to make a decision.


Best Regards
Deb

Please excuse me to write a second posting on that.

Whenever somebody tries to push you - be suspicious.

S.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Regardless of beeing it "a good deal", there are many alternatives. It looks your dealer has pointed you out as a "good victim" for his sales activities.

A used Hasselblad H3DII-31 gives you the same IQ with a less monetary effort. It's a good starting point for your entrance into the DMF and goes for less money than your actual offering.

If needed, you can loan a higher-end body for specific work or upgrade later into the wonderful H4D with TrueFocus or H5D.

From my actual technical perspective, the Phase One camera offer is for sure #4 in the ranking (when compared with Leica, Hasselblad, Pentax). The backs may be great, but the camera ...

From the financial perspective, there are better deals on the H side. As PhaseOne has a very strict program to buy back used equipment, there are less used offers in the market. Hasselblad cameras are very widely spread and you should be able to get a similar offer for about 5 -6 k$.

S.

If the dealer has not asked Deb what kind of work she does and gone into detail about how that work would be performed and rendered with the D800 and the P45+, then that dealer is indeed just pushing sales and is not providing Deb any service.

There are plenty of good deals on all sides of the aisle for Leica, Hasselblad, and Phase, regardless of what programs they have in place themselves.

The time limit placed on the deal can be totally legitimate (someone else may be interested in buying it, etc.), but if the dealer is using the expiration date to pressure Deb into buying, that's a red flag. Especially at that price - there's no reason that kit wouldn't sell easily, so no reason to pressure anyone into buying it at that price.




Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

 

[nenes]

PHASE ONE 645DF BODY it is just not worth it .