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Leica S replacement at Photokina

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Aleph -- people do actually max out the cameras they are using and rightfully hope for better performance in those aspects.
I have a show up here at the National Museum where one of the photos is a slight crop from full size, printed at 1mX1.5m and the exposure was 32 seconds at f/5.6. The S2 tends to add noise and dead pixels at 125s, and while I used it for some of the images in this series, they would not have been printable to the best quality in the show.

Likewise, the resolution of the S2 is 120dpi at 1mX1.5m, which while very good quality from a bit back, is still less than half the possible resolution of the printer I use. More resolution and better long exposure performance are very important in my work, even if they might not be in everyone's. As others said, the lenses are more than capable of resolving more detail (just look at s2 files at 200% and you can tell how the lenses are outresolving the sensor).

I realize that I am probably in a minority using this camera mostly for landscape and art reproduction, but updating the resolution seems to have been something that most S users probably expected. 37.5mp was a great deal when the S2 came out, but I believe it is probably now the lowest resolution camera of all current production medium format cameras, while just being barely more than the best 35mm. Seeing how much more these 35mm cameras offer in terms of ISO and video performance, I am personally a bit baffled as to why Leica decided to try to do half-heartedly what 35mm does well, while ignoring the opportunity to blow 35mm out of the water with what it does best -- superior image quality.
 

tjv

Active member
Exactly, Stuart.
It seems I use my cameras and make prints at similar sizes to you.
This is an unfortunate announcement, IMHO.
TJV
 
A

.:Aleph:.

Guest
Thank you, Rob, and thank you, Stuart!

I understand that. I just wanted someone to say it.

Rob still hasn't stated what resolution he needs and what for.

TJV hasn't said why is the new Leica bad, but he loves the older one, even if its images will be worse for his one meter by one meter prints.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Why? Do we need to justify our purchases?
Well Will sort of. I like to think of it as did we make a smart choice and sometimes reading other users comments do help justify things to yourself. That part I do understand. I know sometimes I may buy something and it was a stretch in one way or another to go for it. Nice to feel comfortable about things and more important not stress about things. I'm a big actually huge advocate of not stressing out. I know for a fact it had not helped my wife and her health. So anything we can do not to stress is a good thing.
 

markymarkrb

New member
The interesting thing to me about this announcement is where does the M go from here? When your Medium Format camera is 37.5 MPs albeit very nice at 6um, the M doesn't have much room to work with. Especially when they released the LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-M 50mm f/2 ASPH and hinted at a future in higher resolution M cameras. Time will tell.
 

tjv

Active member
Isn't it obvious? I can pick up a used, low milage S2 for under a third of the price of the new 007. I've been offered a brand new 006 for about half the price of a new 007. Why pay a ton of money for features I'll never need, being 4K video and high ISO (not saying that's not important to some people, just that I personally don't need it.) Live View is a very welcome bonus, but not a necessity for how I work. On top of all this, I'm not overly impressed with the colour coming out of the M240 compared to the M9, so don't imagine I'd love the colours of the new 007. They're not bad and can be tweaked in post, but if the old model gets you closer and quicker...

Thank you, Rob, and thank you, Stuart!

I understand that. I just wanted someone to say it.

Rob still hasn't stated what resolution he needs and what for.

TJV hasn't said why is the new Leica bad, but he loves the older one, even if its images will be worse for his one meter by one meter prints.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Thank you, Rob, and thank you, Stuart!

I understand that. I just wanted someone to say it.

Rob still hasn't stated what resolution he needs and what for.

TJV hasn't said why is the new Leica bad, but he loves the older one, even if its images will be worse for his one meter by one meter prints.
I don't think most think the new S Type 007 is "bad" but more of an incremental "upgrade" with features that many don't want. Then there are the feature some wanted that aren't included like higher resolution in the 45-60MP range. It seems Leica took a "Canon-like" upgrade approach with this camera where it pertains to resolution.

I could see a lot of people who have S Type 006 passing on this iteration unless they own two newer Type 006 bodies and want to switch one to Type for the high ISO and faster shooting rate abilities. There's also the elephant in the room of will this CMOSIS MF sensor alienate the MF CCD crowd the way the M240 did for those that love the M8/M9/M-E look more. It seems the Sony MF CMOS sensor still gives an extremely pleasing look but that's no surprise seeing the look the A7 series provides.It could be that the CMOSIS does better in this iteration but time will tell next summer once a good number of cameras get into the hands of photographers.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I think Leica originally targeted the S series camera at a specific audience and have remained somewhat true to that specialty positioning. Leica is not one to wholesale cater to the ever dissatisfied whims of the marketplace … if it did, the M rangefinder camera would have evaporated long ago. One need only read what the general photo community thinks a Leica M should be to get a glimpse of what the M would be today if they had their way.

That others have adopted the S platform to applications beyond Leica's original intent doesn't necessarily mean they will suddenly go outside their more targeted S approach. If they do, it'll be a different camera in theory and in use.

Frankly, I'm the target. I use lighting a lot, and preferred V and H all leaf shutter lens systems until the S came along (that the S is also a focal plane camera makes it even more useful); Shoot tethered often so feel less need for Live-View than others do; Rarely print beyond "the equivalent" of 30" X 40"; Shoot almost 95% people photography, Handhold as much as use a tripod or monopod, Have a subjective preference for CCD rendering (which Leica seems to recognize with the ME and S-E models) … and then there are the S lenses.

There is a certain aesthetic to the S system results which I've come to like over anything else I've had the pleasure of working with. I'll soldier on with my S2P because it delivers what I want. Leica still gets my patronage because they make new lenses I will eventually add. If and when a S camera comes out that I feel will keep the aesthetic I like and adds something else I need, then I'll consider it.

Wouldn't mind adding a S type 006 when the used price levels off.

Just a long time users perspective.

- Marc
 

Scott Tansey

New member
I am one who took the S system beyond whom Leica designed the system for. If you look at Leica publications for the S, you will see the S League focusing on fashion photography. I use the S for landscape and panoramic photography. I stitch images or crop images to make panoramic images. Panoramic images have an aspect beyond 2:1. For my purposes, the S (I have an S2) fits perfectly. It is easy to use outdoors as it is weather sealed. I can use the S handheld. The lenses are second to none. I just finished a show of panoramic images of Los Angeles at the Leica Gallery in Los Angeles.

The S system has given the opportunity to make some incredible family photos.

As for the new system, I am still undecided. I do know that the 007 is designed to have a faster buffer for rapid shooting. I do not know whether I need CMOS or higher ISO, but it could be a tool to expand what I would like to do. The S-E is now at the same price as the 006 with the trade in. So there is now a choice whether you want CCD or CMOS.

All I know is that the S2 has allowed my to take my photography much further than I have with any other camera system.

Scott
scotttanseyphoto.com
Leica S2, 24mm, 35mm, 70mm, 120mm and 180..
 

craigrudlin

New member
Disclaimer: I shoot landscape, urban decay, abstracts and often make
40x60 inch prints. So as mentioned above, I am probably not the pro
that Leica is targeting (or even cares about). I originally chose the
S2 because of the lenses, and do enjoy the simplicity of the design and
interface.

I am terribly disappointed in the "new S". I feel that video, especially 4K
needs a dedicated video camera, and that trying to produce professional
level video on a still camera is a bad compromise. Furthermore, its
presence only complicates menus and controls.

What I need is more resolution, which Leica has decided not to provide.
A higher ISO can be useful, and I wouldn't mind having it, but it isn't
sufficient to justify the cost of a trade.

The "new S" does not improve the resolution of the LCD which remains
below many consumer 35mm cameras. They did not articulate the
LCD making its use for live view difficult outdoors. They didn't improve
the color space for the LCD.

The "new S" didn't add sensor cleaning (which nearly every consumer
camera now has).

It remains to be seen if Leica can retain the "look" of the CCD in CMOS.

I bought my S2 for the lenses, and the lenses are remarkable. But
it appears that the camera per se is falling further behind the industry
even as its price continues to increase substantially. (Does this remind
anyone of Phase?)

I wonder how good the Pentax lenses are? Or, perhaps the Zeiss Otis
lenses on the 810 or the A7R. To be even asking these questions, to
be even considering these alternatives, is disturbing.

I know the "draw" of Zeiss is not the same
as the Leica, and as I stated, it is the character of the Leica lenses
that I admire and desire. BUT, there comes a point (as Stuart mentioned
above) when your market demands one thing and the camera cannot
adequately deliver.
 
I am pretty excited about the possibilities of this camera and it's future generations. I shoot both stills and video, having one camera to do both at the high end would be fantastic. Obviously, we'll have to see the quality of stills and the video form this new sensor before an accurate judgement can be made. I haven't been able to do mud research, but my guess is that the sensor they are using is the largest megapixel they can use and still get HD on the full frame and 4K on the S35 size out of the sensor. At least they are pushing new boundaries, unlike the very underwhelming Canon 7D II. (I know they are in two different stratosphere's in terms of clientele) But just look at what they've done with being able to use Hassy & Contax lenses on the S2. I'm sure if enough people tell them that they want a 50+ mp camera, they will make one.

Plus, it looks like the batmobile had a baby camera... #drouling
 

tjv

Active member
I might be less than impressed by this new model and the "uglified" S-E, but I really, really like the S system. Here's hoping people see logic where I don't.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Agreed! I still think this camera is among the best available, certainly for the way I work. I was just disappointed that it changed in a way that is more or less a side-grade for me, rather than an upgrade. At the prices asked for the full body, a side-grade is not really in the cards for me...I need a truly large advance to get me to spend that much money.
 

miska

Member
Perhaps this is not such a bad move from Leica. Their stuff is worth major $$$ but keeps its value better than your bread and butter DSLRs. Probably (partly at least) because your gear doesn't become obsolete in 2 years. That's good for those who "invested" in Leica. Of course, not so good to get bleeding edge gear.
Just a thought...
 

tjv

Active member
From initial reviews, live view implementation seems very good. Other feature upgrades like DNG+JPG to BOTH cards simultaneously is also great news. New AF speed and accuracy seems improved, too. Great that that is also available as a firmware update to 006 owners.
David F. says that this sensor might be based on one in the M240, but the new processing engine has improved noise performance. Perhaps it will also improve colour? Fingers crossed.

So, all in all, the only thing I'm not impressed with is the pixel count.
 

RVB

Member
From initial reviews, live view implementation seems very good. Other feature upgrades like DNG+JPG to BOTH cards simultaneously is also great news. New AF speed and accuracy seems improved, too. Great that that is also available as a firmware update to 006 owners.
David F. says that this sensor might be based on one in the M240, but the new processing engine has improved noise performance. Perhaps it will also improve colour? Fingers crossed.

So, all in all, the only thing I'm not impressed with is the pixel count.
I would like to think they might extend the long exposure time in a later firmware update..
 
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