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Leica S replacement at Photokina

tjv

Active member
I know it's only a matter of weeks away, but does anyone out there have any news to share about what the rumored new Leica S camera will be like? I've read rumors of a 40 - 50mpx CMOS sensor, 4K video, etc, but is there any other info floating about cyberspace? I've heard some very credible rumors that the new S will be priced quite a bit lower than the type 006, but have also read some people report it'll be more expensive.
Anyway, regardless of all this, it's fun to speculate.
 

tjv

Active member
It might be a CMOSIS sensor, like the M240. Actually, I'd kind of respect Leica if they went that way instead of the Sony, providing they put 200% effort into colour and optimising tonal properties over high ISO (if there's a trade off between the two, I don't know.)
 

JorisV

New member
If Leica could deliver a new body at $15K they would IMO take a very large chunk of the MF market.

The Phase One IQ250 back plus body is around $40K which is insane.

Also the Hasselblad historic body is way too expensive with too much respect for historic pricing and still taking the existing CCD product lines into account.

It all depends on what Leica wants. Do they want more MF market share or are they satisfied to be a luxury brand with very large margins?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Leica pricing anything "quite a bit lower" is a non sequitur.

The M lenses just increased in price, the M240 just increased in price, the new M240P was introduced $1,000 higher than the regular M240 introduction price.

See a pattern here?

However, I'd be happy to be dead wrong … although if the CMOS S is anything like the M240 CMOS, I'll take a pass unless it's under $10K … which will happen when Ben & Jerry's is served in Hades.

- Marc
 

JorisV

New member
Marc,

The chances are slim I do admit... :)

Just stating the over-obvious though. With the competition charging insane prices like $27K and around $40K there is an opportunity to be had to achieve a larger market share.

People are often stupid but I don't believe they are that stupid that they will keep on paying those amounts for CMOS sensors…

Best, Joris.
 

Ken_R

New member
IF Leica gets out a 50mp CMOS Leica S I would not expect it to be under $20,000. Might be closer to $30k. Would be great if they sold it for $15,000 or less but that is highly unlikely. Leica is not know for high value items.
 

D&A

Well-known member
When Leica 1st introduced the M240, many were pleasantly surprised at its $6995 (US $) price point after some having predicted a price upwards of possibly $7900 or higher. This was especially true after hearing of its feature set.

I have a feeling Leica will do the same with a new CMOS based Leica S body, pricing it near or just below the current Leica S body...surprising some once again.

Dave (D&A)
 

miska

Member
I would be really really surprised if they used directly the Sony chip, since it's not the right form factor. Leica invented the 3:2 aspect ratio, and they are not a company that forgets it's history...
Perhaps a custom Sony development ? Or a CMOSIS...
 

tjv

Active member
Well, I do hope they price the new S lower than the type 006. I've heard mumblings from people both ways, so I won't hold my breath. Personally, I'm more interested in a back to mount on my tech camera, but the S is certainly attractive for being completely weather sealed and with a set of stunning lenses. In many ways, it'd be six of one, half a dozen of the other for me. The two times I've demoed the S I loved it, but that before they had a descent lens lineup.

An few things that I'd like to see in the new S:

1: Proper duel memory card support, with DNG's saving to both simultaneously.
2: At least 50mpx. I know the rumours state between 40 and 50mpx, but I'd prefer higher.
3: Multi-point AF, and not all clustered in the centre of frame.
4: Well implemented live view
5: 4K video would be nice, but I don't really care for it. If I had it though, I'd use it.
6: Not a body related issue, but I'd LOVE to see high quality, Leica designed and made tilt-shift options at 60-70mm and 30mm. In conjunction with live-view, this would kill my need for a tech camera.
 
M

mjr

Guest
Morning

My big hope is that the new S has a positive affect on prices for the 006! I've been using an S2 for the last few weeks thanks to a friend and love the files, if the current S will just drop a little in price I can afford a decent kit. I have no need for video, I've been reliably informed that the new model will have 4k so hopefully those that do need it will upgrade and I can pick up a bargain.

Mat
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Frankly, when it comes to a new S camera, I'm torn between what would look good on paper and what would be of actual use in practice.

Going to CMOS would allow additional capabilities on one hand, but it would mean starting over on the whole process of making the most of the files … again, (a process I've grown weary of doing every few years). It took quite a while for the CCD S to get it all sorted out … same for the M8, then the initial M9, then the switch to the CMOSIS M240 (which I personally feel is still not optimally sorted out).

Having lived with the S2P now for years as my prime camera system, I've found that it deftly walks the line between high resolution imagery and versatility of applications. Like many others have said in past, 40 meg may have been the watershed for MFD versatility, beyond which you start getting very specific in application. The form factor of the current S makes it a hand-holdable camera which is one of its strengths, but tough enough to do at 37 meg, let alone 60.

Granted, a higher ISO capability would mitigate that to some degree, but only if Leica's CMOS sensor is spectacular at ISOs above 800 in order to gain the shutter speed needed. Personally, I'm skeptical of that at least for the first year or two that a new CMOS version is available and they get it better sorted out.

I'd expect Leica to initially offer the CMOS S at a comparable price to the Type 006 when it was first offered ($22,000) … but would pleasantly surprised if it was $20,000 or less … no, make that pleasantly shocked!

However, I do not think comparing the S pricing structure with the M240's at launch is apples-to-apples. Leica could count on a certain volume of Ms to spread out the R&D for the new CMOSIS sensor and resulting expanded feature set. The S doesn't have that base of users ready to upgrade to every new iteration of the S camera like they do with the M.

That a new S could bring in new users based on price is not in their DNA. Besides, one has to factor in the cost of the lenses which is breath-taking, and are increasing in price.

New higher resolution CMOS/CMOSIS sensor, live view, 4K video, dual slot RAW capture, etc. for a lower price seems unlikely. Possible, but not probable.

- Marc
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Morning

My big hope is that the new S has a positive affect on prices for the 006! I've been using an S2 for the last few weeks thanks to a friend and love the files, if the current S will just drop a little in price I can afford a decent kit. I have no need for video, I've been reliably informed that the new model will have 4k so hopefully those that do need it will upgrade and I can pick up a bargain.

Mat
I thought I read somewhere that Leica extended the S type 006 promotion where they give you $5,000 off the price for a trade-in of any DSLR.(?)

- Marc
 

RVB

Member
My Leica dealer tells me the new one will be "significantly more expensive" than the current S which will remain in the product line,although they may have put this info out to encouraging sales of the current S.

I would like to see USB 3 in the new body and long exposure ability.the current camera's 2min max exposure time covers most things but long exposure ability of least 10 mins would be a bonus.

Anyone else interested in a touch screen menu?

Rob
 

fotografz

Well-known member
My Leica dealer tells me the new one will be "significantly more expensive" than the current S which will remain in the product line,although they may have put this info out to encouraging sales of the current S.

I would like to see USB 3 in the new body and long exposure ability.the current camera's 2min max exposure time covers most things but long exposure ability of least 10 mins would be a bonus.

Anyone else interested in a touch screen menu?

Rob
This sounds to be more in line with Leica's history.

The bonus would be if they reduced the S Type 006 price a bit in a similar manner they did with the Leica ME.

Personally, I'm not interested in a touch screen. The current S interface is brilliantly simple which is one its most endearing user features.

However, what would rip through the MFD world is if they up-sized the Leica T concept to take S lenses (sans the hand polishing:rolleyes:). But that's more Sony's speculative territory, considering they already have the sensor.

A 50 meg Sony mirror-less body that took adapted S lenses would even be a good thing for Leica, since optics is what they do best and they get a king's ransom for each of their S lenses.

Dream on Marc, dream on:ROTFL:

- Marc
 

tjv

Active member
Actually, if be very keen for USB3 tethering and wifi tethering to iPad, but loathe touch screen interfaces (he types on his iPhone!)
Looking forward to announcements. When is Photokina again?

Ps: any hints about new S lenses coming?
 

peterv

New member
What I find most interesting, is that less than two weeks before Photokina, there is very little - if anything - to base speculations on. I wonder why this is so?

With most, if not all of the competition moving to CMOS, it seems likely Leica will come with an updated S. But it almost feels a little worrying that so far nothing has leaked, yet. Of course it's much harder for Sony or CaNikon, etc. to keep a secret since there are hundreds, maybe thousands of co-workers involved in producing a new camera, whereas the Leica S team is very small. At most a few dozen, I estimate.

Anyway, I agree that it seems highly unlikely that a new S will be introduced with a 'nice price', say around $15.000,- Personally, I'd like that very much because I'd like the S user base to grow some more. As an S2-P owner this would make me feel more secure that the system is going to last for a long time and also because a lower entrance fee into the S system would make it more attractive for working professionals. But knowing Leica, I don't think this low pricing is going to happen.

The next few weeks are hopefully going to be interesting. I won't be upgrading since I bought my camera and the 70 + 120 only 1,5 year ago and ... I'm broke :LOL:
 

JorisV

New member
The form factor of the current S makes it a hand-holdable camera which is one of its strengths, but tough enough to do at 37 meg, let alone 60.
Exactly! You would loose all the advantages of the form factor.

Let's not try to turn all MF cameras into high MP tripod and landscape only cameras.
 

ondebanks

Member
Granted, a higher ISO capability would mitigate that to some degree, but only if Leica's CMOS sensor is spectacular at ISOs above 800 in order to gain the shutter speed needed. Personally, I'm skeptical of that at least for the first year or two that a new CMOS version is available and they get it better sorted out.
If Leica stick with CMOSIS for their bigger CMOS sensors, I'm more than skeptical - I am certain that it won't deliver where Sony and Canon CMOS sensors currently deliver - low noise high ISO, and low noise long exposures. I am not at all impressed with CMOSIS' tech - if we take the datasheet for the CMV20000 sensor (35mm full-frame, 20MP), we see that the quantum efficiency curve, readout noise, and dark current are all sub-par.

So let's hope that when the S goes CMOS, it goes Sony CMOS.

Ray
 

Daure

Member
If Leica stick with CMOSIS for their bigger CMOS sensors, I'm more than skeptical - I am certain that it won't deliver where Sony and Canon CMOS sensors currently deliver - low noise high ISO, and low noise long exposures. I am not at all impressed with CMOSIS' tech - if we take the datasheet for the CMV20000 sensor (35mm full-frame, 20MP), we see that the quantum efficiency curve, readout noise, and dark current are all sub-par.

So let's hope that when the S goes CMOS, it goes Sony CMOS.

Ray
+100
 
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