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Another MF maker died today - DHW bankrupt.
- Thread starter Stefan Steib
- Start date
ErikKaffehr
Well-known member
Hi,
Your picture illustrates part of the problem. Leica makes digital cameras, and I guess that it is the digital stuff where the money is.
Making the analogue part means doing all the hard work and let the back makers earn all the money.
Leica had a very significant capital injection, close to 200 M€ AFAIK, and that obviously helped a lot.
Best regards
Erik
Your picture illustrates part of the problem. Leica makes digital cameras, and I guess that it is the digital stuff where the money is.
Making the analogue part means doing all the hard work and let the back makers earn all the money.
Leica had a very significant capital injection, close to 200 M€ AFAIK, and that obviously helped a lot.
Best regards
Erik
Yes, this is rather sad! I had the Hy6, and while I was not impressed with the Sinarback that I had with it, the camera itself was excellent, as were the lenses. It was a fantastic camera to shoot film with, but I eventually sold it because they took years to come out with a 6x6 film back for it. Of course, they came out with it not long after I sold it! Seeing the factory itself, it makes a bit of sense. Clearly they were doing their best to keep it running, but must not have had enough sales to keep it going. A bit of a downward spiral...
I visited the Leica factory back in September, and the contrast could not be starker. Both companies were producing high end, incredibly capable cameras, but Leica is clearly doing spectacularly well. It is an interesting contrast of how differently two companies at the pinnacle of film camera production transitioned to digital. Leica clearly cracked the code, and Rollei unfortunately did not manage.
In comparison to the images above, this is what the factory floor at Leica now looks like:
My condolences to the DHW team and the owners of their products...it's too bad that it had to end this way!
I am not that surprised. I think DHW did not do a propper marketing of the brand. They did not give people the feeling that the brand Rollei/ the company has a proper strategy for the future. So I guess if people did like the product (I did like the Hy6) they might not have bought because they felt unsafe about the future and service.
Still sad.
I assume the problem for some of the big german brands is that there were years where they had such a good reputation and business that they forgot to invest in the future. Success makes people/companies lazy sometimes.
Still sad.
I assume the problem for some of the big german brands is that there were years where they had such a good reputation and business that they forgot to invest in the future. Success makes people/companies lazy sometimes.
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
I wouldn't be surprised if the Hong Kong retailers have bought and paid for all finished products already. Hong Kong was an important market for Rollei the last years and the retailers there seem to have cash enough to buy any lot of products they want and keep them until a buyer walks in through the door.
Speedgraphic
Member
Why in the world did Leica choose to buy SINAR and not DHW? They know how to sell niche products, the Rolleiflex has a ton in common with a Leica. The S system would be a great platform for AF Rollei glass and they are clearly interested in expanding that system of lenses even at the cost of driving with a Planar over a Summarit. 
But really nobody wants to see this company really close their doors. I was just considering demo'ing a Hy6 for my film wedding work. I probably still should.
My 2.8E Planar (which I've adapted to take a Hasselblad prism) is my favorite camera. I still shoot it at weddings. That Planar with some Portra is a dream combination. I was hoping to one day buy an FX-N. I know a guy who has one and I'm more than a bit jealous.
But really nobody wants to see this company really close their doors. I was just considering demo'ing a Hy6 for my film wedding work. I probably still should.
My 2.8E Planar (which I've adapted to take a Hasselblad prism) is my favorite camera. I still shoot it at weddings. That Planar with some Portra is a dream combination. I was hoping to one day buy an FX-N. I know a guy who has one and I'm more than a bit jealous.
Yep. A platform designed to be open, ends up with Leaf, Sinar and DHW all marketing on their own (kiss of death). Phase having pulled out. Then Leica buys Sinar, not this (ugh). And its probably the best extension of the Hassy V way of working…. different than the H.
Its a history full of petty decisions in a declining marketplace. The irony is that like Hassy, Rollei was an early innovator in the 1990s digital era, with a very early scan back, and lots of attention paid to integration, sadly much too early. So like many others, they got toasted, and those development $$ were lost. That may be the straw that broke the camel's back, who knows.
But it sure is a good system to use.
Shashin
Well-known member
Which is exactly why Leica wants Sinar. You usually buy a company to diversify.Why in the world did Leica choose to buy SINAR and not DHW? They know how to sell niche products, the Rolleiflex has a ton in common with a Leica. The S system would be a great platform for AF Rollei glass and they are clearly interested in expanding that system of lenses even at the cost of driving with a Planar over a Summarit.
Although, I am unsure why Sinar folding is a better alternative to Rollei. I doubt Leica could "save" both.
ErikKaffehr
Well-known member
Hi,
I would suggest that doubt in Hy6's future had a great part in that. Going into MFD is a major investment and most people want to make safe investments.
The other side of the coin is I would guess that it is on MF backs the real earnings are made. Upper end backs cost ten times the camera they are sitting on.
Best regards
Erik
I would suggest that doubt in Hy6's future had a great part in that. Going into MFD is a major investment and most people want to make safe investments.
The other side of the coin is I would guess that it is on MF backs the real earnings are made. Upper end backs cost ten times the camera they are sitting on.
Best regards
Erik
Stuart Richardson
Active member
I think that the Hy6 was a more attractive proposition in 2008-2010 than it was a few years later. The Hy6 is probably the best camera for those who wanted to shoot 6x6 film and also use a digital back using the same camera and lenses. As digital progressed, it became clear that having both in the same body was a handicap. The film-era lenses did not do quite so well on high megapixel digital. While the V system and Rollei lenses surpassed the requirements of 6x6 film, certain digital backs stressed them too hard. I noticed that my 40mm super angulon did not fare so well on 22mp, even though it was quite good on film. I also noticed that the AF system in the Hy6 did not function as accurately for me as manual focus did. I could not rely on it to work reliably on digital.
When I eventually sold the Hy6 and went to the S2, I realized just how much further technology had come. The S2 lenses and body integration were at least a generation further advanced than the hy6 was, and to me it was fairly obvious that as nice as the Hy6 was, it was a bit anachronistic compared to the Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica offerings of the moment. It is not to say that it was a bad camera, but I think it was basically the best 6x6 film camera at a time when everyone else was concentrating on building the best camera for a 40x54 or smaller sensor. Building a camera and lenses from the ground up for a particular format is a huge advantage, and I think the other companies had some success in being able to eschew the large 6x6 image circle for more modest sizes.
When I eventually sold the Hy6 and went to the S2, I realized just how much further technology had come. The S2 lenses and body integration were at least a generation further advanced than the hy6 was, and to me it was fairly obvious that as nice as the Hy6 was, it was a bit anachronistic compared to the Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica offerings of the moment. It is not to say that it was a bad camera, but I think it was basically the best 6x6 film camera at a time when everyone else was concentrating on building the best camera for a 40x54 or smaller sensor. Building a camera and lenses from the ground up for a particular format is a huge advantage, and I think the other companies had some success in being able to eschew the large 6x6 image circle for more modest sizes.
There is a lot of truth in what Stuart says, the S2 is a more fully integrated, and more up-to-date system. The Hy6 suffered from lack of development, a few switches that look a bit too fragile, but my biggest pet peave is its big handle - good for holding (and adjustable) but hard to pack! The virtues are its flexibility, very good lenses (the 40 is weakest at the edges, but there are many good ones), AF and MF. The MF lenses are affordable, with 25 years of production (PQ lenses from the 6008 work just fine) so building up a full system is not-so-much. My experience with AF is not the same as Stuart's - I've found it to be right on, once the lenses are dialed in. But you have to dial the lenses in to the back.
The biggest virtue of the camera may be its flexibility and ability to "morph" from one use config to another. Its modular, you set it up any way you want - waist level viewing to prism, MF or AF lenses, digital to film (I've really only shot digital with it) all easy with a host of customizable options, too many to name.
The lenses (built for 6x6) are heavy. Ergonomics are very good, fastest shutter speed (all leaf shutters) is either 1/1000 or for some is 1/500. It might not be leading the pack against newer stuff out there, but its a fine working system of high quality. Think of the Contax and Hassy V, updated with tactility. Lack of sales is due to doubt, no marketing, and a very limited and underfunded company.
The biggest virtue of the camera may be its flexibility and ability to "morph" from one use config to another. Its modular, you set it up any way you want - waist level viewing to prism, MF or AF lenses, digital to film (I've really only shot digital with it) all easy with a host of customizable options, too many to name.
The lenses (built for 6x6) are heavy. Ergonomics are very good, fastest shutter speed (all leaf shutters) is either 1/1000 or for some is 1/500. It might not be leading the pack against newer stuff out there, but its a fine working system of high quality. Think of the Contax and Hassy V, updated with tactility. Lack of sales is due to doubt, no marketing, and a very limited and underfunded company.
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I love my hy6, and contrary to some of the experiences above, older lenses fared really well on my Aptus 12 back, which is as demanding as they come. (the 50mm, 150, 250 zeiss). The results in good light is as sharp as those I get from my Alpa and 47 schneider set up.
Now that it's gone, I probably need to scoop up a back up body in case mine breaks for any reason
Now that it's gone, I probably need to scoop up a back up body in case mine breaks for any reason
DeckardTrinity
New member
Just found out about DHW, not very surprised at the outcome. As a fully invested Hy6 owner though (50, 80, 180 AFD, 110 and 80 f/2.0, Credo 80 and 6x6 film back), I gotta say, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Some of these other systems may be more fully integrated, that's true, but none of them offer the analog and digital flexibility that the Hy6 does. None.
Honestly that really should have been their focus - to sell this system as a jack-of-all trades - serious studio shooter, art-driven landscape photog, capable of operating in the classic realm of pure traditional darkroom processing or in the modern digital driven workflows of high end fashion. But, perhaps that is not such an easy thing to do.
I'm with mmbma on this one tho - will definitely be putting a backup body on my radar in the not too distant future. My current body is a Hy6 that has had the Mod 2 upgrade added, so will be looking for a pure Hy6 + Mod 2 body. There is no way I'm unloading all of this great glass - this is my go-to system for every semi-serious photography adventure I set out on where I have the time to contemplate and compose. Hopefully this isn't truly the end of the Hy6 adventure where DHW are concerned but I guess time will only tell.
Honestly that really should have been their focus - to sell this system as a jack-of-all trades - serious studio shooter, art-driven landscape photog, capable of operating in the classic realm of pure traditional darkroom processing or in the modern digital driven workflows of high end fashion. But, perhaps that is not such an easy thing to do.
I'm with mmbma on this one tho - will definitely be putting a backup body on my radar in the not too distant future. My current body is a Hy6 that has had the Mod 2 upgrade added, so will be looking for a pure Hy6 + Mod 2 body. There is no way I'm unloading all of this great glass - this is my go-to system for every semi-serious photography adventure I set out on where I have the time to contemplate and compose. Hopefully this isn't truly the end of the Hy6 adventure where DHW are concerned but I guess time will only tell.
T.Dascalos
Not Available
I think it is important to mention on the reasons that brought Rollei in such a position...
As cruel as it may be, Rollei was abandoned by the major MFDB makers... P1 refused to support the platform and Hasselblad stopped making their CF backs altogether and closed the system to integrated cameras... Rollei users were thus left with very limited upgrade path as to continue to invest on this (marvellous) range...
It really is like a camera maker left without support from film makers... shame to them!
As cruel as it may be, Rollei was abandoned by the major MFDB makers... P1 refused to support the platform and Hasselblad stopped making their CF backs altogether and closed the system to integrated cameras... Rollei users were thus left with very limited upgrade path as to continue to invest on this (marvellous) range...
It really is like a camera maker left without support from film makers... shame to them!
DeckardTrinity
New member
Interesting. I am impressed that Eric managed to bring an official Rollei presence to the U.S. It would be interesting to see a digital capable TLR that's for sure!
I've had a few of my lenses fixed by Onick at Rollei & Hensel here in NJ. I spoke to the guy running the place a few times but haven't been by in a couple years. Not sure if they are even still around, as Onick was entering semi-retirement the last time I got a repair done.
I got the feeling after speaking with the owner that things with DHW went south quite a long time ago. If I recall, a lot of those guys were part of the original Rollei structure, so if they are now truly kaput, then it is less likely much of what Rollei was, in people terms, will continue on. It will just be a name from now on.
I also think that this mythical Phase camera could have come out a long time ago, if they had just taken the Hy6 as a base on which to build further integration into. Maybe slim down the handle a bit too.
I've had a few of my lenses fixed by Onick at Rollei & Hensel here in NJ. I spoke to the guy running the place a few times but haven't been by in a couple years. Not sure if they are even still around, as Onick was entering semi-retirement the last time I got a repair done.
I got the feeling after speaking with the owner that things with DHW went south quite a long time ago. If I recall, a lot of those guys were part of the original Rollei structure, so if they are now truly kaput, then it is less likely much of what Rollei was, in people terms, will continue on. It will just be a name from now on.
I also think that this mythical Phase camera could have come out a long time ago, if they had just taken the Hy6 as a base on which to build further integration into. Maybe slim down the handle a bit too.
richardman
Well-known member
OK, don't laugh, but I am planning to buy a MF camera for film use in the near future. I have a SWC/M and love it. The 501CM is the obvious choice, relatively inexpensive too.
A new Hy6 is $7900 from B&H but looks like it can be half that on eBay. So... besides the meter and such, I presume the Hy6 handles better than the Hassy, is that correct? How usable is it for handheld use (I plan to use tripod and handheld, depending on the situation). I have taken a few portrait shots with a (rental) Hassy 503cw and 180 @1/60 and they are fine (pretty much jammed the camera w/ the WLF to my body for stability). Worth it to spend the 3x money?
(my other cameras are 4x5 Chamonix, Leica M9 etc.)
A new Hy6 is $7900 from B&H but looks like it can be half that on eBay. So... besides the meter and such, I presume the Hy6 handles better than the Hassy, is that correct? How usable is it for handheld use (I plan to use tripod and handheld, depending on the situation). I have taken a few portrait shots with a (rental) Hassy 503cw and 180 @1/60 and they are fine (pretty much jammed the camera w/ the WLF to my body for stability). Worth it to spend the 3x money?
(my other cameras are 4x5 Chamonix, Leica M9 etc.)
DeckardTrinity
New member
The reasons I went with a Hy6 are autofocus, metering, and the analog / digital capability. I have a 501CM as well, but I don't use it much. I like to keep it around when I'm feeling like going "all-in" on analog - no batteries or electrics in that camera at all, a purely mechanical joy to use.
The Schneider glass is also of very high caliber. Just comparing the 80 CFE lens on the 'blad to the 80 PQS on the Hy6 there is a noticeable improvement in sharpness and contrast (to my eye at least). I typically hand hold the Hy6 for my landscape or street shots, so that isn't really a concern as long as you've got good light.
The Schneider glass is also of very high caliber. Just comparing the 80 CFE lens on the 'blad to the 80 PQS on the Hy6 there is a noticeable improvement in sharpness and contrast (to my eye at least). I typically hand hold the Hy6 for my landscape or street shots, so that isn't really a concern as long as you've got good light.