Hasselblad CFV-50c live view

[darr]

trying to sum up a few details, re, the CFV50: please correct any mistakes:

This is the CFV50c (CMOS) back, not the CFV50 (CCD) back we are talking about.

1. battery is external, available in small and large, hangs below the back (not shown in the product shots i have seen) and will interfere with the SWC unless an extension plate is fitted.

Battery is external.

2. back is only capable of fitting in normal landscape position, battery down. meaning the Aptus rear standard, for example, has to clear especially when shifted down. And for portrait orientation, the entire camera has to be rotated.

Do not know what the "Aptus rear standard" has to do with using this back on a Hasselblad V camera ??? But, if you are going to use it on a V camera, it is in landscape orientation, but some of us are going to use this back on a technical camera that allows it to be connected in any orientation.

3. cost is from $15k down to $10k, depending on Asian outlets.

Correct, at this time.

4. live view is available when tethered using Phocus via firewire on the external monitor right now, but not yet on the back's LCD itself

Incorrect; LV is available without tethering; see video links in above postings for LV demo.

5. speed of transfer for tethering is more limited using firewire compared to USB

The back uses FireWire 800 (IEEE1394b) for tethering/transferring. I currently tether a P45 via firewire and find no speed of transfer problems. Is USB 3 available with Phase One backs?

5. back is available with H or V mount

AFAIK, it is Hasselblad V mount, but can be used with other cameras via adapter plates from the specific camera manufacturers. I may be purchasing this back to use with an ALPA Max and STC, if so, I would mount it via my ALPA V adapter plate. I currently shoot ALPA cameras with a P45 and an ALPA Mamiya mounting plate.

comments?

 

[tjv]

trying to sum up a few details, re, the CFV50: please correct any mistakes:

1. battery is external, available in small and large, hangs below the back (not shown in the product shots i have seen) and will interfere with the SWC unless an extension plate is fitted.

Correct. The extension plate is an "L" shape and allows for its use on the SWC.

2. back is only capable of fitting in normal landscape position, battery down. meaning the Aptus rear standard, for example, has to clear especially when shifted down. And for portrait orientation, the entire camera has to be rotated.

Not sure what "Aptus rear standard" means here? When mounting on a V series body, the CFV backs only have one mounting position, which is landscape orientation. This is not ideal, in my opinion. For technical camera users however, the back can be mounted in either orientation, or even upside down.

3. cost is from $15k down to $10k, depending on Asian outlets.

Correct. Prices in Japan are BELOW $10K USD.

4. live view is available when tethered using Phocus via firewire on the external monitor right now, but not yet on the back's LCD itself

I'm not 100% sure if the new firmware that enables on back live view is being publicly distributed yet, or if new backs are shipped with it already installed, but by all accounts it has been tested and works reliably. Videos from Linhof & Studio show it in action. In very low light the refresh rate is very much adequate for easy focusing and in good light seems better. There is no lag in the display.

5. speed of transfer for tethering is more limited using firewire compared to USB

It's firewire 800, so should be more than adequate. More than speed, the bigger problem is that new MacBook Pro laptops etc. don't have firewire ports, although thunderbolt to firewire converters can be used. Again, not ideal if you're a hard core tethered shooter, but can be worked around easily enough.

6. back is available with H or V mount

No. Only V mount. The H mount version is the H5D-50c and is significantly more expensive due to being sold with an H series body, etc.

 

[tjv]

I see Darr beat me to it!

 

[jlm]

thx, useful feedback as always.

I am thinking of using the back on the Cambo Actus, which can be fitted with an H or V mount. this little gem (the actus) has a rear standard with shifts like a view camera and the downward movement of the back could possibly cause the battery to interfere with the standard. The Actus also has a rotating rear mount, allowing the P to L switch; again.
clearances due to the battery need to be looked at.

as far as transfer speed, Phase makes a big deal how USB 3 speed is critical in their IQ series for moving image files;

problem with firewire might be no easy PC compatibility or modern Mac compatibility

 

[f8orbust]

...as far as transfer speed, Phase makes a big deal how USB 3 speed is critical in their IQ series for moving image files...

Maybe now they do - it's a selling point after all - but during the two year period when it wasn't working on the IQ backs they never appeared overly concerned - FireWire seemed to cope just fine.

 

[tjv]

I very much doubt the battery would get in the way as it isn't flush with the part of the back that mounts on the camera, plus the standard battery doesn't extend down that much.

 

[dougpeterson]

Maybe now they do - it's a selling point after all - but during the two year period when it wasn't working on the IQ backs they never appeared overly concerned - FireWire seemed to cope just fine.

While USB3 certainly wasn't topping marketing talking points during those "dark times" it was not at all the case Phase One wasn't concerned about getting USB3 to work. They invested heavily in bringing USB3 to the IQ and IQ2 as promised. Part of the issue, and why progress was so slow on this front despite continual R+D, was that USB3 was still a bit in the "wild-west days" and the variation from one manufacturer's USB3 card/implementation and that of another manufacturer was significant. Regardless the goal should be to under-promise and over-deliver and that was definitely not followed on this feature, at least as regards its time-of-delivery.

Fortunately for all involved they did pull through and provide USB3 on all IQ and IQ2 backs as promised and having USB3, class-leading raw compression, and very fast and modern internal components (ram, processors, coprocessors) is critical in providing the Credo 50, IQ150, IQ250 fluid, high frame-rate, low-latency live view whether using the built-in Retina LCD or a high-res monitor while tethered by USB3. It's also critical in providing fast and consistent capture rates when shooting tethered, rates which can be sustained at maximum speed for hundreds of frames without hitting a buffer. USB3 is useful for the other IQ/Credo backs, but it's especially critical for the CMOS backs (Credo 50, IQ150, IQ250) since the CMOS sensor is capable of some very high data rates.

As told in our Phase One IQ250 - CMOS Fully Realized article.

 

[tjv]

Can we please not turn this thread into another plug for Phase?

 

[Egor]

Having had both the IQ and Credo backs in for testing at our studio, we have found USB3 to be "wanting" on several fronts, especially compared to FW800.
1. USB3 does not provide enough power to charge the backs
-real world result = dead batteries in the middle of a long day of shooting
2. USB3 does not allow cable length longer than 9ft
-real world result = cables run across floor and can be a tripping hazard or we now must purchase specialized new cables and active extenders to boost the weak signal
3. USB3 is just as fast as FW800,but not faster, and can not handle sustained thruput the way FW800 can with aplomb.

Not sure whats so great about it other than the first word in its TLA which is that it is "universal". They should have gone with Thunderbolt but whatever...It works and will have to get use to its quirks and live with it.

The Hasselblad looks like a fine system and at that price, amazing! It was just an overall system and support decision for us but if we were a Hassy studio I wouldn't have given it a second thought!

 

[f8orbust]

The Hasselblad looks like a fine system and at that price, amazing!

HB have taken a beating on the net over the years for various products they've put out, but this doesn't appear to be one of them. To be the first manufacturer to release a digital back with the latest sensor technology at a (relatively) sane price point deserves a huge slap on the back.

If anyone is contemplating going down the tech cam / digital back route, then this is hugely attractive. e.g. in comparison to the IQ250:

 

[Paul2660]

Having had both the IQ and Credo backs in for testing at our studio, we have found USB3 to be "wanting" on several fronts, especially compared to FW800.
1. USB3 does not provide enough power to charge the backs
-real world result = dead batteries in the middle of a long day of shooting
2. USB3 does not allow cable length longer than 9ft
-real world result = cables run across floor and can be a tripping hazard or we now must purchase specialized new cables and active extenders to boost the weak signal
3. USB3 is just as fast as FW800,but not faster, and can not handle sustained thruput the way FW800 can with aplomb.

Not sure whats so great about it other than the first word in its TLA which is that it is "universal". They should have gone with Thunderbolt but whatever...It works and will have to get use to its quirks and live with it.

The Hasselblad looks like a fine system and at that price, amazing! It was just an overall system and support decision for us but if we were a Hassy studio I wouldn't have given it a second thought!

I would tend to agree with your point about not charging. I have used a IQ260 tethered via USB3, to a Surface Pro 2, all field use. The tethered connection does seem to "extend" the normal battery life, which on a CCD back is much less than the CMOS 50MP backs. I base this on the fact that in the field with 2 3400 mllamp Phase batteries, I can shoot all day, 8 to 10 hours, and not need any other batteries, which before would have been needed. Around 5 more. I tend to shoot tethered for setup, then move to the card for the remaining shots, to save on SPro2 system battery life.

I also believe that in warmer conditions, say outside temps of 85 degrees F or higher, and over 75% humidity, the charging option may cause the back to heat up excessively and that REALLY created a lot of noise. Back in September, I was doing a shoot, at iso 50, which most times is very clean even with a 1.5 stop push, and on image review, I noticed that the images were all very noisy. While reviewing, I noted that my 260 was very warm to the touch. At that time I was doing a low/slow (I can't remember which term is used) to the back. I stopped this, and quit my shooting for 10 minutes, allowed the back to cool off, and then image quality returned.

On my 260, USB3 port is a bit tricky, in that if I happen put any movement on where the cable is inserted to the back, I can get a error, and no connection message.

I use a 6 foot and 9 foot cable in the field.

I only briefly tried the FW800 connection on a Macbookpro 15" and did not do a enough shoots to really see if the speed was equal or greater than USB3.

I do find that the USB3 connection to my S Pro 2 is very quick, so much so that I hate going back to the LCD and waiting on the view to refresh to 100% and back.

I can also see your cable length issue being a problem, however I have found that to be a problem with printers also, as most devices seem to spec at the 9 foot length.

Paul

 

[tjv]

When you look at it like that, it's brilliant value, eh?

HB have taken a beating on the net over the years for various products they've put out, but this doesn't appear to be one of them. To be the first manufacturer to release a digital back with the latest sensor technology at a (relatively) sane price point deserves a huge slap on the back.

If anyone is contemplating going down the tech cam / digital back route, then this is hugely attractive. e.g. in comparison to the IQ250:

 

[tjv]

PS: Paula has added one more live view focus demo to the Knowledge Bank.

 

[Nick-T]

It's firewire 800, so should be more than adequate. More than speed, the bigger problem is that new MacBook Pro laptops etc. don't have firewire ports, although thunderbolt to firewire converters can be used. Again, not ideal if you're a hard core tethered shooter, but can be worked around easily enough.

I think I fit the description of hard core tethered shooter
I shoot tethered in studio all day using the Thunderbolt>FW 800 adaptor to an iMac using a 10 metre cable and it works perfectly. Never disconnects, rock solid.

 

[SHV]

"When you look at it like that, it's brilliant value, eh?"
*****
It would be if it were generally available for sub $10k USD. For the Tech camera user, $15k is a huge value; for the larger potential market of "V" series hobbyists, sub $9500 is probably the optimal price point.

Steve

 

[f8orbust]

It would be if it were generally available for sub $10k USD...

Again, all things are relative - if you live in Japan, it is.

You could always take the $2500 bundle of cash in the picture above and put it towards a few days in Tokyo

 

[dougpeterson]

Having had both the IQ and Credo backs in for testing at our studio, we have found USB3 to be "wanting" on several fronts, especially compared to FW800.
1. USB3 does not provide enough power to charge the backs
-real world result = dead batteries in the middle of a long day of shooting

Neither does Firewire via Thunderbolt Adapter. For static setups, if desired, one can use FW800 into a wall adapter if mains power is desired, and still use USB3 for the connection.

2. USB3 does not allow cable length longer than 9ft
-real world result = cables run across floor and can be a tripping hazard or we now must purchase specialized new cables and active extenders to boost the weak signal

I guess it is a "specialized cable" but USB3 goes beyond 10ft quite easily.

3. USB3 is just as fast as FW800,but not faster, and can not handle sustained thruput the way FW800 can with aplomb.

This is not true on most high end configurations. Don't know what system you were benchmarking on, but the highest sustained shooting speed on an IQ250, IQ150, Credo 50 is accomplished via USB3, not FW.

 

[torger]

Don't worry Doug, the CFV-50c is not a direct competitor to IQ250, in fact a key reason that Hasselblad can sell the CFV-50c at its own much lower price point is that it's locked to V mount and is thus not interesting for the vast majority of professional photographers who needs an H or M system for their work. If you want a H5D-50c you get to pay the usual amount. As far as I understand the CFV-50c pricing is there to cater a niche market of amateurs and artists having a beloved V system on the shelf.

Hasselblad has not really understood that there's a significant tech cam market out there though, and for that V mount works fine and the price point compared to the competition is just exceptional.

And now they seem to sell more than they can produce with months of waiting, at least in Japan. Hopefully this will show that a lower price point can work, and that it's not a law of nature that an MF digital back must cost $20-$40K.

 

[tjv]

Now that we've got the USB3 stuff out of the way...