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Medium format macro options

gerald.d

Well-known member
Hi all -

I'm looking to get into shooting macro product photography. Specifically, watches.

I've never shot with flash before, so have a lot to learn there, but what I'm initially considering is what camera/lens options I should be looking at.

My desire is to be able to shoot watch faces and movements at close to 1:1 magnification, with large prints the end game.

Preference is very much to get everything right "in camera" - so this means tilt rather than focus stacking (if I have to focus stack to get the depth of a watch movement all in focus then that would be OK, but I want to be able to get the plane of the face of the watch in focus in one shot).

Backs are IQ180 and P45+ Achromatic.

Cameras and lenses I have options.

I have a Fuji GX680 III and a couple of lenses (135mm and 210mm). Shot a couple of tests (not close to 1:1) with the 135 today and pretty happy with the initial results.

Alternatively, I have my ALPA kit - FPS/Max/TC, most of the Rodies and the Schneider 120mm, and the FPS tilt adapter, along with a whole bunch of the ALPA adapters that I guess could be used for macro work rather than my usual need of getting infinity focus!

What I realise from today's play with the Fuji is that I'm going to need extension rails for that to get to 1:1. And I am assuming maybe a different lens.

I would very much appreciate any thoughts/guidance as to which of the two systems I currently have would be best suited for this requirement, and what I need to get to the end goal. I'd rather work with what I have, rather than having to go out and spend lots of money!

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I would look at a monorail camera from Linhof (cs679) or Arca Swiss. Those should give you the extension and you can you use your back. You would just need a lens. But since they use a simple lens board, the lens is rather a straight forward purchase. You may even find an adapter for your Alpa lenses for the monorail.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Which 120 Schneider do you have?

120N
120M
120ASPH

If you have the M or the ASPH this is what I'd suggest.

You will, almost surely, have to DOF stack if you're going 1:1 at 80mp. No matter how thin you think the DOF will be - it will be thinner. The issue accelerates quickly as you go from 1:4 to 1:2 to 1:1. Especially once you account for the effective aperture (as you know with your background, but others may not be aware of, diffraction kicks in based on the effective aperture, not the marked aperture of the lens). Movements can help reduce the number of frames you'll need to stack though.

Effective aperture and extreme macro article - in this article I'm talking about higher magnification like 5:1 where you're talking about 1:1. But still of interest.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I would look at a monorail camera from Linhof (cs679) or Arca Swiss. Those should give you the extension and you can you use your back. You would just need a lens. But since they use a simple lens board, the lens is rather a straight forward purchase. You may even find an adapter for your Alpa lenses for the monorail.
This is a big advantage of the Arca Tech/View camera system. It's fully interchangable such that a 120ASPH used on an RM3Di can be moved, without hassle, to a M monolith or Universalis. As far as I'm aware no one makes an adapter for the Alpa proprietary mount. It would only need to be light tight and tight on the parallel tolerances though, so I suppose custom machining would be possible at commensurate one-off pricing. You'd need to take care to check that the depth/neck of the lens mount wasn't going to vignette the image circle as it does on a few of Alpa's lens mounts.

That said, he may not need rail extension since he has several Alpa adapters. He just needs 240mm of extension and the native lens mount likely gives 120mm. How many adapters do you have Gerald? In this case Alpa's requirement to have several adapters to make various lenses compatible with tilt might come in handy!
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
I would look at a monorail camera from Linhof (cs679) or Arca Swiss. Those should give you the extension and you can you use your back. You would just need a lens. But since they use a simple lens board, the lens is rather a straight forward purchase. You may even find an adapter for your Alpa lenses for the monorail.
Hi Shashin -

I'd rather not have to go to another system to do this. However, having said that I am hoping to have access to a quite extraordinary collection of watches next year that maybe would warrant splashing out on another option.

Specifically, what is it about the options you suggest that would make them a better choice over what I already have access to?

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Which 120 Schneider do you have?

120N
120M
120ASPH

If you have the M or the ASPH this is what I'd suggest.

You will, almost surely, have to DOF stack if you're going 1:1 at 80mp. No matter how thin you think the DOF will be - it will be thinner. Especially once you account for the effective aperture (as you know with your background, but others may not be aware of, diffraction kicks in based on the effective aperture, not the marked aperture of the lens). Movements can help reduce the number of frames you'll need to stack though.

Effective aperture and extreme macro article - in this article I'm talking about higher magnification like 5:1 where you're talking about 1:1. But still of interest.
I own the old 120N, and access to the new one (through work).

As an aside, the reason why I'm looking at up to 1:1 and not worried about going further, is that typically watches are between 35mm and 42mm diameter. I don't really want to be getting into stitching for this. Lugs and crowns will add to this, but 1:1 is the ballpark.

I'll definitely check out the article - thanks.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I guess if I as just exploring this, I would try to get a medium-format macro lens that can do 1:1 and mount it to your FPS. The manual Pentax A series 120mm macro is about $500 and really sharp. You will not have tilts, but then you could do stacking--stacking is really easy and the applications to do that like Helicon Focus are cheap. Alternatively, use small apertures, yes, diffraction is greater, but you can really counter that with unsharp masking. Or a combination of small aperture and stacking.

For your Fuji (or Alpa) (and people are going to rail against this idea, but probably have never tried it) you could try supplementary lenses, AKA close-up filters. These filters come in diopters which is ratio of a focal length of a meter. With your camera focused at infinity, a +1 lens puts focus at 1m, +2 at 0.5m, +3 at 0.3m. There are some real advantage to these lenses (filters) in that your set aperture at any given magnification is actually brighter and you are getting less diffraction. However, I have never tried them with tilt, so I am not sure if it is ideal for that, but you still have small apertures and stacking. These filters are inexpensive. Both Hasselblad and Pentax made nice "filters."

Oddly enough, smaller sensors are better suited for macro as they do not need as much magnification.
 

darr

Well-known member
Gerald,

I currently shoot macro with my Max. I used Arca Swiss cameras throughout my career when I shot products in the studio, but sold off the last AS camera I had, the ML2 in December after making a decision towards retirement. Today when I shoot MF macro, I use a Max, a Schneider 120M, and multiple ALPA macro adapters. Getting to 1:1 on an ALPA requires a lot of macro adapters (more than I own), so I shoot and crop.

Since the ALPA Schneider 120M is placed in a helical mount with 17 mm of travel and then in a 34 SB mount, getting to the 240mm requirement for 1:1 would require multiple macro adapters (expensive). If you have two ALPA bodies you could mount them on a rail and custom fit a bellows, and I have thought about doing that, but for the projects I am currently working on my current setup is working fine.

I too recommend focus stacking as there really is no other way to get the DOF as it becomes paper thin at high magnification. I currently use Helicon Focus (HF), and have used Zerene Stacker in the past. The reason my switch to HF was at upgrade time their UI looked better. Focus stacking is not hard, but for the watches, you will have to remove their batteries if they have second hands (blur motion).

I currently have a lightly used Schneider 120M that I used with my ML2 if you are interested in buying this wonderful macro lens used for your FPS.

Kind regards,
Darr
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Thanks for all the advice folks.

A couple have mentioned that you need 240mm of extensions for 1:1 with the 120mm. Noob question - is that how this works? You need double the focal length of the lens to get to 1:1 ratio?

Re the focus stacking options - I've played with HF in the past and it's really cool. My preference however is to get as much right in camera as possible - as mentioned, I want to get the focal plane set along the face of the watch which is why I'm only looking at options that can tilt. If I then need to focus stack due to the depth of the face or movement, then happy to do it for that.

One other option I have that I forgot about - I do have an old (MF) Mamiya 120mm f/4 macro which goes to 1:1.

I guess I could go Back>FPS>FPS tilt/swing adapter>Mamiya lens adapter>Mamiya 120mm.

I'll try that option this evening.

(Darr - these watches don't have batteries - you could buy two IQ280's for the same price as that watch in my first post!)


Kind regards,


Gerald.
 
Last edited:

Pics2

New member
Another not so expensive tilt and macro option is the one I use now - basic 45 studio camera ( I use Cambo SCX) with standard bellows (not bag bellows), macro lens is preferable, but I still don't have one, I use Rodenstock Apo sironar digital 105, 135, which are not expensive and still good, and Mamiya back adapter from Kapture group called Live videop adapter.
Darlene, how much is 120M, I maybe interested:) . You can PM me. Thanks!
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Not sure if it has the image circle for this, but why not the Canon MP E 65 on the FPS?
I only want to go to 1:1 maximum, so not really much point is there?

(also no idea on the image circle of that lens)

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

goesbang

Member
Hi Gerald, I have some experience shooting both watches and jewellery at the magnifications you describe on MF digi and film for several outdoor and POS campaigns for a large Australian jewellery chainstore.
Doug's advice is, as usual, spot-on. You will definitely need to stack to pull in even the thickness of a watch movement at 80MP, that's a given.
I have both the short and long extension rails for the GX180 and to the best of my recollection, the 125 will not get to 1:1 with the long rail and the extended bellows(you will need this to get to the end of the long rail). In any event, the Fuji's lenses aren't up to par this close up, certainly not against the other lenses you already have. BTW, ALPA's tests are suggesting that some of the newer non-macro lenses are performing superbly at macro distances. Check with them for specifics.
Given that you are going to have to focus stack regardless, may I suggest that, for practical on-set reasons, you consider 120mm as a minimum focal-length. Even at this you will find your watches so close to the lens that you will start to have difficulty lighting without your lens/camera throwing shadows and reflections where you don't want them..
The technical problems re lenses, diffraction etc are in fact the easiest to solve. Lighting will be your biggest challenge to finesse.
All the best with the project.
Cheers,
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Hi Bryan -

120mm range does sound about right. I had a play with the old Mamiya earlier today, and was pretty impressed by the quality given I think it cost me around $250.

1:1 on the Mamiya 120mm leaves quite a bit of distance between the front lens element and the subject, so I don't think there are any major concerns there for lighting when I get around to that.

Still very much in the experimental stages here - no lights (below was a 32 second exposure!), no table, no way to easily move the camera and/or watch. I'm mainly just trying out options to see how viable they might be (basically, I recognise there is plenty wrong with these test pics).

At a magnification of roughly 0.85 (watch case is 42mm diameter):

Full frame


1:1 crops




Not too bad on the DoF there - I'm guessing 3-4 exposures max should be sufficient. Again to stress - I recognise that focus stacking will be required for deep movements and/or dials, but the ideal scenario is to get the focal plane along the face of the watch so that focus stacking can be kept to a minimum.

BTW - focusing is an absolute PITA. Going forward I'll definitely use live view on the IQ250 to focus, then swap it out for the IQ180 for the shot. Sounds a bit daft, but I'm not sure there's any other viable way to go about it.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
It is cool seeing the motion in the movement. It kind of wants me to make really long exposures to show all the moving parts. Horological gear trail photography.

What will be a PITA is "cleaning" all that dust off in Pshop. That is the great thing about macro, even the cleanest looking stuff will be dirty if you start looking close enough. Hopefully none of these watch will have been worn. My watch looks disgusting when I use it for microscope training.
 

goesbang

Member
Most people who do this regularly have the camera mounted on some kind of micro-drive rail. It is generally easier to move the camera minute amounts than shift focus on the lens. There is usually too much backlash in the helical or monorail system to have the control necessary. I used to use the tool head micro drive from a precision lathe to move my camera, which was mounted on an extra heavy version of the Cambo UBS camera stand. I could easily move the camera just 1/1000th of an inch at a time, so I would shoot a frame, check it on my main monitor, then make fine adjustments. This was with both my P25 and later with the P45+. If you are looking for superb micro-adjustable platforms, a company called Schneeberger makes excelent ones. Most of the contraptions marketed for macro photography aren't fine enough.
Something that Doug has mentioned should be kept in mind, namely that DOF is at effective aperture, not lens marked aperture. If I have my theory straight, at 1:1, you are 2-stops down, so when you have set f5.6, you are in fact at f11 and with the IQ180 diffraction limit starts to kick in soon after.
Cheers
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Diffraction is really overstated. It does not take a lot of work with unsharp masking to mitigate its effects.

As for micro drives being required for focusing, I have not found that to be true with objects as large as a watch. Both my Pentax macro and Linhof focusers are fine enough.

Rails do have the advantage that you are not changing magnification when you shift focus--using the rear standard to focus on a view camera is also a preferred method over focusing the lens. But to mount your camera on a focusing rail is not that difficult. You just want to make sure the motion is large enough for your sample. If you have a source for secondhand lab equipment, you might get a good deal. Manually stacking is not that hard. We have manually stacked images with mechanical focusers at 100:1--our microscopes are now motorized, but that just makes them faster, not better.

Basically, I would start making stacks and see how it works for you. Some people have harder times with this than others, but it is pretty straight forward and does not require any special equipment. I would also play with processing--I know lots of photographers that use one setting for their unsharp mask for everything, but there is a reason it is adjustable.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
BTW - focusing is an absolute PITA. Going forward I'll definitely use live view on the IQ250 to focus, then swap it out for the IQ180 for the shot. Sounds a bit daft, but I'm not sure there's any other viable way to go about it.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
Gerald,

That is exactly what I used to do but have become so impressed with the files out of my Leaf that I have put my 180 on the shelf. Tilt or swing is very easy with the much improved live view. I have also found it extremely difficult to see any difference between files from my 180 compared to my 150 all the way out to 40 inches which is a usual print size for me. Print with both and see for yourself.....

Regards,

Victor
 

Shashin

Well-known member
This is obviously extreme (f/32 at 1:1 (and I am not suggest you shoot at f/32)) and a web-size image, but you can actually stop down and end up with a sharp image. I don't like stacking either.

 
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