The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Medium format macro options

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
In light of this thread and my time at Alpa this past week, I am going to provide some information here about a very exciting and upcoming macro solution. The information concerns a prototype product, but it’s not too far out, perhaps early next year. I thought of just starting a new thread centered on this solution, but since it is not finished enough to post product images, I'll just tag it to the existing macro thread already started for now.

This solution will not be for everyone, but then again an Alpa solution is not for everyone anyway. What I have seen in this thread and what I have seen with clients who require depth of field at high magnification is that medium format digital solutions are being utilized with an assortment of techniques and contributing products, but I’m not aware of any solution that pulls it all together in an optimal manner.

Tp address this, Alpa will announce a solution soon, and here are some of the details:

This solution can work extremely well for macro photography but particularly pushes into micro photography. The summary of what this will do is to couple the excellent Alpa products with high megapixel count digital backs, an amazing set of lenses, and a motorized support structure that automates and synchronizes capture with the steps for stacking.

The problem I see for optimizing depth of field on small objects is that yes, you can try adding some tilt to a lens to expand a the focus depth, but this is often not enough for small objects and at a point, can have some destructive effects on the image quality. You also are weighing the chosen aperture, but for micro or macro past 1-1 you’ll be forced to shoot quite open anyway, which deters the depth of field. Or yes, you could expand upon this by performing a stacking routine, but this is a manual process, subject to inconsistency and randomness. It takes time and more importantly, occupies your time during the process.

I do not have photos I can share of the entire solution, as there will be some changes to the prototype that we saw, but I can tell you that the solution is a marriage of:

*Alpa FPS Camera (maybe good news, Gerald?)
*Alpa software solution
*Variety of FPS compatible lenses (but for Micro photography, Linos Inspec Lenses)
*Alpa Motorized Stepping Platform

The combination of this solution will allow you to set the near and far measurements for the subject, the number of steps for the total capture count (and of course the distance for each step), and automate the step sequence, but most importantly, automate the captures to synchronize with the automated motorized steps. And this is all performed with high megapixel digital backs with these amazing lenses.

The FPS Camera is a great fit for this application, given the advanced capability it has for programming a variety of automated capture sequence scenarios.

You should see the MTF curves for the Lino Inspec lenses - I’m not that into the MTF data as much as I am the actual field results - but the charts for these lenses are amazing - and so are the results. They have zero chromatic aberration and even the focus falloff, should you decide you want any, is quite nice. MTF chart is below for the 105mm/5.6, which is what we used during our testing last week. Keep in mind this chart is the performance at f/5.6 and 3X!

While this offers a supreme solution for precision quality, consistent results for extreme macro, or micro photography, the fact that the captures are automatically synchronized with the motorized sequence of steps, and performed with equipment of incredible quality - the camera, lens, and sensor - means that even someone producing standard macro distance captures will experience a quality not matched by any other current solution I am aware of.

Some samples of our practice runs last week - not perfect, but they’re unsharpened beyond defaults and still are quite impressive. I believe this image file was comprised of 300 captures.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Thanks Steve -

I've been looking forward to learning more about this solution.

Any idea on ballpark cost for the software/lens/motorized stepping platform? Just ballpark so that I know whether it's going to be a viable option or not!

Kind regards,

Gerald.
 

cunim

Well-known member
Steve, the macro system sounds neat. My company made a microscope XYZ montage system that, as I recall, Fuji's med division sold in Japan as "the beautiful image system". This applied high NA objectives (small FOV, thin DOF) and automation to image thick sections. The laser scanners did better (and much quicker) with fluorescence, but the luminescence and brightfield images were lovely with our system. Seeing micro detail over large areas is one of those transformational experiences - if you are into that sort of thing.

The market that we could never address was gross pathology coming in at about 1:8-2:1 for MF sensors - often used for documenting small solid tumors and other excised material. Lighting for solid bodies was not our thing. Your group should have great expertise there so I expect you are considering an entry. I will follow with interest.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Since you already use Alpa, maybe consider the Alpa/Novoflex bellows announced at Photokina?




Indeed, this could be a very helpful solution for macro, but also for Alpa users who want to extend their lenses into a view camera system.

But to be clear, on the Alpa news, the killer app for me is the ability to synchronize the steps and the captures automatically.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
I'm guessing this will work something along the lines of StackShot ?

But probably not with the $550 price tag :)

Oh I'm pretty sure the price will be different. And if something like CamRanger supported MFD solutions, maybe that would be something. Again - this system isn't for everybody, but if someone wants to combine MFDB's with a great array of optics and Alpa quality solutions, this is the ticket. Or I should say, the ticket is on the way soon...


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I have not made tests with MFD yet, but I have a Stackshot and it works great.
I have this far only tested in Sony Alphas, but function would be identical on MFD.

The way I tested I focused on close and far points using the remote control and given the number of steps. Than I just walk away and let controller do the magic. You obviously need a camera that can be remotely controlled.

Focusing using live view is probably the most comfortable solution, if feasible.

The reason I didn't use it yet on MFD is that I need to make control cable for the blad and I have been to lazy with the soldering iron. I have a V-series blad.

I did my stacking in Zerene Stacker.

There may be better solutions around, but the Stackshot is very affordable and it works.

Best regards
Erik
 

f8orbust

Active member
And if something like CamRanger supported MFD solutions, maybe that would be something...
Just to clarify for anyone unfamiliar with CamRanger vs. StackShot. CamRanger works by refocussing AF lenses on compatible SLRs; StackShot works by physically moving the camera a set distance (down to 2µm), just like the Alpa solution by the sounds of it, and is thus an ideal solution for anyone looking to shoot an automated sequence of stackable images using MF. There is a Mamiya 645AF cable available from StackShot, so using a 645AF + the great 120mm/f4 macro lens sounds like a nice (and economical) solution capable of first class results. Also, StackShot can be controlled via CamRanger + CamRanger's PT hub on an iPad, iPhone, Android, Mac, or PC. Video here.

Triggering the camera can be done directly from StackShot (or CamRanger + PT hub) or in tandem with software like HeliconSoft or ZereneStacker; the great benefit of the latter is that the images are fed in and processed on the fly. Set it going, go make a cup of tea, and when you come back your stacked image is ready.

It's also possible to set StackShot up so you can fire the shutter manually (e.g. if you're using a lens with a copal shutter), but naturally that could be a bit tedious if taking more than a few images.
 
Last edited:

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Steve, does this solution work for all the lens mounts the FPS supports?

Yes, it would. And that would remain one of the advantages over the Mamiya camera on a Stackshot (thanks for letting me know about that, F8, I was not familiar with it).


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

f8orbust

Active member
Since the FPS can control AF, it would be nice if Alpa introduced CamRangeresque ability directly into the FPS firmware - i.e. i) focus near > set, ii) focus far > set, iii) tell the camera how many shots to take between the two and let it do the rest.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Since the FPS can control AF, it would be nice if Alpa introduced CamRangeresque ability directly into the FPS firmware - i.e. i) focus near > set, ii) focus far > set, iii) tell the camera how many shots to take between the two and let it do the rest.

That is exactly what I described in the initial post I made, though not with AF. I suppose this could potentially be enabled as well, though I'm not clear on the advantages of auto focus in this application.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Steve,

There is a discussion on the Zerene Stacker homepage on advantages of focusing the lens vs. moving the assembly.

stacker:docs:troubleshooting:ringversusrail [Zerene Stacker]

Best regards
Erik


That is exactly what I described in the initial post I made, though not with AF. I suppose this could potentially be enabled as well, though I'm not clear on the advantages of auto focus in this application.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
 

f8orbust

Active member
That is exactly what I described in the initial post I made...
Don't want to split hairs, but to be fair it wasn't. You talked about a solution that moves the entire camera in order to move the plane of focus. The advantage of this is obvious - you can use lenses that don't autofocus. The disadvantage is obvious as well - the camera has to move and be moved. Given that the FPS can focus lenses with AF (e.g. the superb Canon 180/3.5L), I was simply suggesting that they make use of this feature for focus stacking. It could then also be used for focus stacking in other areas - e.g. when shooting landscape. Other obvious advantages include no additional hardware required (e.g. platform with stepping-motor) and no additional cost. In other words...

 
Last edited:

gerald.d

Well-known member
OK, so in anticipation of the new ALPA system coming out, I thought I'd dip my toe into the stacking water and got a StackShot to keep me entertained until the new year.

Here's the first effort (25 image stack)



Click here for the full resolution tiled image.

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

f8orbust

Active member
Nice shot Gerald - which software are you using to do the stacking ?

The reason I ask is that there appears to be ghosting around the metal strap lug to the top-right - probably one of those instances where you might want to manually clone from the source file that shows this area in best sharpness (if your software allows you).

Any change of a photo of your setup?

Jim
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
Nice shot Gerald - which software are you using to do the stacking ?

The reason I ask is that there appears to be ghosting around the metal strap lug to the top-right - probably one of those instances where you might want to manually clone from the source file that shows this area in best sharpness (if your software allows you).

Any change of a photo of your setup?

Jim
Hi Jim -

Thanks. Yup - there are quite a few issues with this image. I'm just starting to get my head around the process (this was taken about half an hour after unpacking the StackShot and I've not even got around to reading the manual for it or Zerene Stacker - which I'm also using for the first time - yet). I'm really just starting out here - just some very quick retouching on a couple of areas I spotted.

It's interesting learning what new (to me) image deficiencies to look out for, how to spot them, and what to do to fix them. I need to retrain my eyes for this!

Apologies I didn't take a photo of the set-up. FPS with Mamiya 120/4 macro (manual focus version) and IQ180. 1:1.2 magnification (or is it quoted the other way around? - less than 1:1 magnification I mean). Indoors, just the ceiling lights in the room (sun had set), 3 second exposures at f/8 and ISO35.

Kind regards,

Gerald
 

darr

Well-known member
Excellent for first try Gerald.
Nice to see you have safely returned from the 830 meter-high selfie! :)

Kind regards,
Darr
 
Top