Deciding between Alpa TC, STC or Cambo 1250

[Don Libby]

Jawad, I too once used a M9 and found it very impressive once writing that the M9 was very close to a baby brother to my P45 at the time. same sensors gave me very much the same color. The only difficulty I had with the M9 was the limitations of the print size thus I sold it and returned to a DF and the ability to switch the back between the two systems.

A lot of what we do is subjective; what works best for us might not work for others. I too don't see me changing sensors any time soon.

Have you decided yet on the camera system? Seems we got sidetracked talking about glass (which isn't a bad thing)...

don

 

[Jamgolf]

Jawed, I too once used a M9 and found it very impressive once writing that the M9 was very close to a baby brother to my P45 at the time. same sensors gave me very much the same color. The only difficulty I had with the M9 was the limitations of the print size thus I sold it and returned to a DF and the ability to switch the back between the two systems.

A lot of what we do is subjective; what works best for us might not work for others. I too don't see me changing sensors any time soon.

Have you decided yet on the camera system? Seems we got sidetracked talking about glass (which isn't a bad thing)...

don

Don

I regret selling my M9 and Noctilux - but then its no match for MFD for prints as you said.

All the lens talk actually ties back to my camera so its not a bad thing at all, I agree.

Given that I have a fixed amount of $$ I am having a hard time deciding whether to spend more on a camera or on a lens. Choices:
a) Alpa STC and a very good lens 40mm HR
b) A great lens (32mm HR) and a Cambo 1200
c) Wait until I can afford to get both

-Jawad

 

[jagsiva]

I also itched to opt for the 32HR lens when I use an IQ260 CCD. However the main issue with it is that the center filter is too huge and there is no easy filter solution for that. If you shoot without a center filter then you get noisy corners since the CCD has noticeably less dynamic range than the CMOS sensors (even less than a Pentax K5-IIs APSC if you do long exposure shots)! Yes you may well use a CMOS digital back and overcome the vignetting without the center filter but again as mentioned above, the 32HR may not be CMOS-friendly or future proof enough. We don't know about that yet.

I use the CF on the 32HR and often use Heliopan 105mm ND screw in filters (.3, .6, .9, 2, 3). I take the ND off for the LCC, CF stays on. I take the ND off for two reasons - getting rid of any ND induced color casts or vignetting; and I'm just not patient enough to stand around holding up a white card in front of my lens for 4x the time it took to shoot the image in the middle of nowhere.

I also sometimes use a 105mm slim coated polarizer. Movements are limited when compared without the polarizer as vignetting starts to kick in, but it is still useable with some movement.

All filters are stacked on the CF.

 

[fmueller]

The lens discussion in this thread has been immensely instructive. Thank you.

Also, maybe the CCD is on the way out, but don't tell that to Wayne Fox who seems to be doing just fine with that dated technology.

 

[voidshatter]

I use the CF on the 32HR and often use Heliopan 105mm ND screw in filters (.3, .6, .9, 2, 3). I take the ND off for the LCC, CF stays on. I take the ND off for two reasons - getting rid of any ND induced color casts or vignetting; and I'm just not patient enough to stand around holding up a white card in front of my lens for 4x the time it took to shoot the image in the middle of nowhere.

I also sometimes use a 105mm slim coated polarizer. Movements are limited when compared without the polarizer as vignetting starts to kick in, but it is still useable with some movement.

All filters are stacked on the CF.

I have found no good solution of 15-stop ND filter for the 105mm center filter yet. Singh-Ray does not make 86mm or 105mm either. It would be also difficult to eliminate light leakage issues if any filter holder is used to accommodate a square ND filter at 15-stop. I could live with a 10-stop ND filter but that would require stacking of multiple exposures in post-processing, which is less than ideal for a technical camera as cocking the Copal 0 shutter would introduce vibrations between shots and hence damage sharpness of final image.

As you mentioned, for long exposure shots the CF should stay on but it is not viable to have the ND on. Thus even if Singh-Ray makes 86mm in the future it would still be too much of harassment to take off the ND then screw in the CF just to take the LCC shot - such operation in the field always risks scratching the front element! I could only prey that Singh-Ray makes 105mm in the future.

Anyway, as the 32HR is not very CMOS-friendly (thus not future proof for me), I am now moving to a wider solution, i.e. 23HR + IQ250. Yes I get less pixels on a smaller sensor whose price is going to crash soon in months but I do get the benefit of CMOS not having to take the darkframe NR, which is critical for sunset and sunrise.

 

[jagsiva]

Didn't even know 15 stop ND's existed....so that's like 32000x the exposure time without the ND filter. So even a shot @ a copal shutter's max speed of 1/500 would be over a minute. A typical exposure for me @f8 w/CF is around 1/30s which would be about 18 minutes. I guess I don't need to worry too much about that on my CCD sensor for now, I could make lunch on it if I had it on for 18 minutes straight

 

[beano_z]

Sorry for the off-topic question, but you guys are saying that a regular 86mm screw-on ND will fit over the HR32 without touching the front element, right?

 

[jagsiva]

Sorry for the off-topic question, but you guys are saying that a regular 86mm screw-on ND will fit over the HR32 without touching the front element, right?

Need to check, but I wouldn't think there will be a problem.

I use 105mm over my CF filter.

 

[kdphotography]

...
Given that I have a fixed amount of $$ I am having a hard time deciding whether to spend more on a camera or on a lens. Choices:
a) Alpa STC and a very good lens 40mm HR
b) A great lens (32mm HR) and a Cambo 1200
c) Wait until I can afford to get both

-Jawad

If with a limited amount of resources, or rather only willing to commit to a limited investment for a technical camera, you're really looking at what Don and I call a "one-lens-wonder."

When Rodenstock first released the HR40 t/s, I knew this would be "the lens" for me. And I was in a similar situation in not wanting to be too Dante-esque with lenses initially. I wanted a "one-lens-wonder."

I already had the IQ180 so the MFDB decision was made. (CMOS sensor ala IQ150/250 doesn't interest me btw). A technical camera really isn't much but an expensive finely machined plate of metal. And the truth is that you really aren't going to find objective quality/precision differences at this level of photography with Cambo, Alpa, or Arca.

In short, the Cambo and HR40 t/s (and my IQ180) became my "one-lens-wonder." You can easily go on landscape outings with only this single lens. IMO, the HR40 t/s is a great first lens for someone getting into a technical camera. It plays well, rarely really needs LCC though in practice you should always take an LCC exposure. IMHO, the HR40 t/s is the best overall focal length if planning on limiting yourself to a single lens initially. You have full movements in a great package that travels light and well. IMO, the HR40 t/s is a power packed lens and a great first lens for a technical camera. It is easy to use, no CF needed, easy to use a bellows shade or add filters. It is a one-lens-wonder.

ken

 

[Ken_R]

Given that I have a fixed amount of $$ I am having a hard time deciding whether to spend more on a camera or on a lens. Choices:
a) Alpa STC and a very good lens 40mm HR
b) A great lens (32mm HR) and a Cambo 1200
c) Wait until I can afford to get both

-Jawad

Jawad, the deciding factor between those two should not be the difference in cost. Neither is exactly cheap.

Buy into the system that is best for you.

Get your hands on each system and get a feel for them if you can.

 

[Don Libby]

Both Kens are correct - in the end it's up to you and how much the system talks to you. The concept of the tech camera is silly stupid (when compared to a DSLR) you have a piece of metal that accepts a lens on one side and a digital back on the other while offering some sort of movements.

As stated previously, the only read world experience I have is with Cambo having bought the WRS late 2008. Out of all the camera gear I have that remains the longest lasting system and after 6-years of constant use I have no plans of getting rid of it. Yes, there's been improvements made both by Cambo and others however my WRS works well and is just as tight and well made today as it was when I first tried it out at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon the Fall of 2008.

I've been using this word a lot recently however it really is a subjective decision of the system; it either "fits" or it doesn't. There was a car commercial awhile back where the spokesperson asks does your car return the favor when you turn it on? I use that question a lot when I speak to people about camera systems. Does it turn you on? If not maybe you need to look at another system.

Finally ,buying into any of the systems isn't cheap or for the faint of heart; that's why finding the right dealer is so damn important and it appears you have. Keep bugging Steve and Dave with questions. You might also want to plan a trip to Lake Tahoe next April when Dave, Ken and myself get together as we'll have all sorts of camera gear with us that you can try out (call CI for the details).

Okay had the first cup of coffee and need to get outside....

 

[kdphotography]

Jawad, the deciding factor between those two should not be the difference in cost. Neither is exactly cheap.

Buy into the system that is best for you.

Get your hands on each system and get a feel for them if you can.

Sounds like good dating advice before considering marriage. :ROTFL:

Okay, need that second cup of coffee now....

ken

 

[Jamgolf]

Ken, Ken_R, Don:

Thank you guys for your advice.
You all make sense. I really need to reflect on this.
I need my 4th cup of coffee - and its only 10:31 AM
Let the 'reflection' begin

Points to reflect on:
* it either "fits" or it doesn't (Don)
* does 'it' return the favor when you turn it on? (Don)
* deciding factor ... should not only be the 'difference in cost' (Ken_R)
* buy into the system that is best for you (Ken_R)
* one-lens-wonder or not (Ken)

-Jawad

 

[Don Libby]

Jawad, remember - only you know what fits you best. The other secret is that there's no such thing as a "one lens wonder" as soon or later that lens will want company (just ask Ken). That said, I'm off to shoot Moab and So Rim in a couple weeks and I'm only packing the 40HR for the Cambo....

don

 

[Don Libby]

I was thinking about this thread this morning as I shot this. Yes a 32 is a heck of a lens and if you need to go wider you can always shift; on the other hand you'd be left with cropping in if you needed to get closer and that doesn't always work out well. Go to a 40mm focal length give you just a little bit closer and at the same time you can always shift for wider.

When 40mm isn't enough - 3 shot image (center and 5 degrees left and right) give me a 12162x7649 pixels at 360 dpi should have gone 10 degrees however in a rush fighting snakes...

Cambo WRS\IQ180 and a HR 40mm t/s f/4 1/500 ISO 35

Seeing how well this turned out I plan on returning to shoot wider.

 

[jagsiva]

Don, a keeper for sure. Also looks like I can live with the DR of my CCD 180 for a while

 

[Jamgolf]

I was thinking about this thread this morning as I shot this.

Beautiful shot Don.

This thread is on my mind for sure, but the fact that you too were thinking about this thread made me chuckle at little

And whats that you said about "fighting snakes..." - for real?

Cheers!
-Jawad

 

[Pemihan]

And whats that you said about "fighting snakes..." - for real?
-Jawad

Don lives in the Sonoran Desert in southern Arizona, where fighting rattlesnakes is just a normal part of what you do everyday.

Here's an image of one I encountered on the trail, no fighting though just hissing and rattling.. sorry for the lousy image, it was shot with my iPhone, but my MF tech camera kit was looking. In hindsight I should have mounted the SK 120 and used the tech cam just to prove it could be done..!

 

[f8orbust]

Without investing too deeply, I would look at the TC + S/K 35mm for use with a Credo 60.

Why Alpa? The system is huge, and with the FPS and the new focus-stacking system there’s something for just about every imaginable scenario. You can deal with Alpa directly (including sales) which is nice - and they reply quickly - as well as through a number of dealers. Pricey, no doubt - but there’s just something about an Alpa. Oh, and they have a good website.

The S/K 35mm is a really nice lens. Lost popularity because of the 80MP sensor design, but it behaves well enough with the Credo 60 and that includes some shifting ability. Small, sharp, light, contrasty and distortion-free. Pricewise you should be able to pick one up for a fraction of the cost new. Forget about people asking $3k, $4k, $5k for this lens used - they’re on the Koolade. The last few sold on GetDPI (months ago) went for the low $2k range, so today I’d expect to pay $2k or less for a nice example. There are a couple on eBay right now struggling to get through the $1k barrier.

So, TC + S/K 35mm + adapter plate = $6k. If you can get the TC and adapter plate used, the kit would probably be under $5k.

Jim

 

[GrahamWelland]

So, TC + S/K 35mm + adapter plate = $6k. If you can get the TC and adapter plate used, the kit would probably be under $5k.

Jim

I'm not saying that you can't but I'll be mighty impressed if you do ... :watch: