CFV 50c vs Credo 50/40?

[bindermuehle]

Hi all,

First off, I'm not a professional photographer. I take pictures for pleasure, and a substantial part of that is spending the time setting up and framing shots. That's why life never was better than when I had my CFV 16MP back, I was very happy with it, apart from the crappy low light performance. Then it died. That's two years ago now, and I've started shooting film again with my Hasselblad, developing my own C41/E6/B&W. Other than the latter type, this is messy, and expensive, and messy. And the results are not immediate.

So I bought what my budget allowed, and I got a Canon 5D MkIII with a few nice lenses. But that's just not working for me. I can't shoot with a tiny viewfinder.

Thus my decision to sell all of that gear, and bite the bullet, spend the money on a new digital back for my wonderful collection of V system Hasselblad lenses and bodies.

I've thus far essentially whittled it down to the CFV 50c (which is my preferred choice given my past history with their backs, and the negative experiences I've had with a PhaseOne that the salespeople so desperately were trying to push on me), then there's the Credo 50 which is almost twice the price, and the Credo 40, which 2/3rds the price, but also is just 40MP.

My quest for hands on reviews thus far has been met with mostly no results, in other forums (e.g. LL) there appears to be mostly a sales spiel being played by PhaseOne proponents, but nobody ever really seems to have first hand experience. To quote from a personal message I got on LL: the 50c makes wonderful pictures (as do all Sony chips - at least that was the inference), but the workflow is slow and outdated. That comes from someone who by their own admission has never held one or tried one.

Can anyone here with first hand experience of a comparative nature comment on my predicament?

Cheers

- Balt

 

[torger]

By the comment "the workflow slow and outdated" must mean Phocus, which indeed is old school compated to Capture One or Lightroom. There's nothing wrong with the image quality but you don't have local edits, the tonemapping features are limited etc. The other thing that's "slow and outdated" is that the V system is manual focus. Oh, you don't have wifi of the CFV-50c back, and the back's user interface isn't as modern as Phase One's - but you do have live view now.

A common workflow among Hassy users is to use Lightroom as DAM, Phocus as raw converter and Photoshop as post-processing tool. I guess many Phase One users do it all in Capture One, although many still use Photoshop now and then. I know of some Phase One users that really dislike to postprocess in Capture One, and just use if for brief raw conversion and get as soon as possible over to Photoshop, ie the same as many Hassy users do.

Comments from first hand experience won't help you that much, as it's so very much a matter of taste and the nature of your work. If you work tethered in a studio, or if you're out in the field shooting for example. I think differences will be more clear in a tethered workflow. The important thing to know is that you don't sacrifice image quality, but some convenience features. If you've already used to a Hassy workflow from the CFV-16 you know what you will get.

Cost-wise the CFV-50c value is just unbeatable in the MF world (excluding the Pentax 645z). The reason it's cheap is that it doesn't compete with the autofocus H system which "all pros" use these days, image-quality-wise it's exactly the same as H5D-50c, except for the lenses.

As you're going to shoot V and is not considering swithing to 645DF+ and would like to have better ISO performance I think it's a no-brainer, CFV-50c it is. V-mount Phase One and Credo backs won't have that great second hand value either, while all CFV models have proven to hold the value well, as there is still a large enthusiast interest in the V system, and it just looks better with a back in matching style. Shooting Credo and IQ on the V system will give you Capture One, but the "slow and outdated" workflow is in most parts still there with the manual focus camera. I find it very very very hard in this context to motivate the extra cost of a Credo 50 or IQ150/250.

A Credo 40 645DF+ kit can be had for $13k these days though, which is $2k less than a CFV-50c back. That's the alternative to evaluate against I think. Sell yor V gear and go all in on 645DF+ could be an option. That's a much more difficult discussion as the systems are so very different.

 

[Paul2660]

As I mentioned over on LuLa, such comparisons are few.

This is the most detailed review of the credo 50 I have seen.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/digital-camera-reviews/51985-leaf-credo-50-review-guy-mancuso.html

Darr's post on this forum has some actual images taken with the 50c.

Paul

 

[jlm]

i went from the IQ160 to the cfv50-c; cambo and H2-blad to 205FCC. in the past, had the cfv16 and cfv-39.

i'm happy winding my camera, looking into that waist level ground glass and using phocus. and the interface of the cfv50-2 to the camera is perfect

expect to use it on the cambo Actus where live view is essential

 

[kdphotography]

Unless you're intimately familiar with particular systems---investing in any MFDB system without at least seeing it in person to compare, could end up being a very costly proposition. Oh wait, that's perfect for members of Dante's Inferno... :ROTFL:

There is so much of a personal/subjective decision that really, to make the best decision before jumping in, is to be able to use the MFDB systems you are actually considering---both equipment, software, and workflow. And this can be difficult depending on your geographic location because of the rarified air of photographing with medium format digital.

If you can find a medium format workshop (like Jack and Guy here at GetDPI) or a not a workshop-workshop (me and Don :ROTFL that is an ideal setting to try many different MFDB platforms. Not many options outside of scant dealers and actual users you can try to meet up with....

If you've been out of the fray for a while---- I'd keep all options on the table for now.

ken

 

[darr]

I have a P45 and the CFV-50c; I will be letting go of the P45 in the near future. FWIW, I would not put a whole lot of weight into a review that comes from a dealer that is not selling the 50c or a forum messenger that is not using it. Practical experience IMO is an important factor when giving advice on gear.

I use the 50c on ALPA cameras and a newly acquired 501CM. I do have extensive experience using the V system (20+ years), but gave it up a few years ago due to film processing and scanning, but went back to it recently because of the 50c.

I was looking at acquiring the IQ250 for the Live View (LV) and CMOS qualities when Hasselblad came out with the 50c, so I am overjoyed to say the least. The 50c is everything I wanted, especially the LV, as I use my ALPA cameras a lot, and now I do not need the ground glass for focusing -- it has not only lightened my gear bag, but also makes my shooting experience a lot quicker, and simpler with more ISO options.

I am currently using the 501CM with a 150mm lens for portraiture, and do not plan on using the Hasselblad outside of portraiture, that is what my ALPA cameras are for. I am very happy with the 50c matched with my 501CM. The only thing I would change if I could would be to make the back rotatable for the vertical format, but that is not enough for me to exchange the 50c for another back. The option of shooting square is there, albeit with the loss of pixels.

I am a newcomer to Phocus and use it for LCC processing, a tiny bit of tweaking and then as all my files go, into Lightroom (LR) and if further tweaking is needed, then Photoshop (PS). As far as Phocus being a problem, from my experience it is not, and it does not cause any computer difficulties such as Sigma's SPP program has while I process Foveon files.

I am a Capture One (C1) user since version 5, but do not use it much even though I upgraded to version 8. C1 does excellent RAW processing, but the interface always turned me off; other photographers love it.

My digital workflow for many years has been LR and PS, and I think it is safe to say, my workflow is LR and PS no matter what camera/digital back the files come from. C1 could not convince me to make the switch even though I have used it with the P45 since 2010. My C1 workflow is similar to how I currently use Phocus.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Darr

PS: B&H Photo sells the CFV-50c if you did not already know that. I bought mine from a Japanese dealer off of eBay.

 

[Uaiomex]

Off the record:
I was wondering that since you use the 50c on your V exclusively for portraits, would you pay someone with the skills and means to rotate the sensor to vertical position?
500CM WLF viewing, 50mp, the luxury of LV, no cords and integrated looks.
That sounds like photo nirvana to me.
Best
Eduardo

I have a P45 and the CFV-50c; I will be letting go of the P45 in the near future. FWIW, I would not put a whole lot of weight into a review that comes from a dealer that is not selling the 50c or a forum messenger that is not using it. Practical experience IMO is an important factor when giving advice on gear.

I use the 50c on ALPA cameras and a newly acquired 501CM. I do have extensive experience using the V system (20+ years), but gave it up a few years ago due to film processing and scanning, but went back to it recently because of the 50c.

I was looking at acquiring the IQ250 for the Live View (LV) and CMOS qualities when Hasselblad came out with the 50c, so I am overjoyed to say the least. The 50c is everything I wanted, especially the LV, as I use my ALPA cameras a lot, and now I do not need the ground glass for focusing -- it has not only lightened my gear bag, but also makes my shooting experience a lot quicker, and simpler with more ISO options.

I am currently using the 501CM with a 150mm lens for portraiture, and do not plan on using the Hasselblad outside of portraiture, that is what my ALPA cameras are for. I am very happy with the 50c matched with my 501CM. The only thing I would change if I could would be to make the back rotatable for the vertical format, but that is not enough for me to exchange the 50c for another back. The option of shooting square is there, albeit with the loss of pixels.

I am a newcomer to Phocus and use it for LCC processing, a tiny bit of tweaking and then as all my files go, into Lightroom (LR) and if further tweaking is needed, then Photoshop (PS). As far as Phocus being a problem, from my experience it is not, and it does not cause any computer difficulties such as Sigma's SPP program has while I process Foveon files.

I am a Capture One (C1) user since version 5, but do not use it much even though I upgraded to version 8. C1 does excellent RAW processing, but the interface always turned me off; other photographers love it.

My digital workflow for many years has been LR and PS, and I think it is safe to say, my workflow is LR and PS no matter what camera/digital back the files come from. C1 could not convince me to make the switch even though I have used it with the P45 since 2010. My C1 workflow is similar to how I currently use Phocus.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Darr

PS: B&H Photo sells the CFV-50c if you did not already know that. I bought mine from a Japanese dealer off of eBay.

 

[darr]

Off the record:
I was wondering that since you use the 50c on your V exclusively for portraits, would you pay someone with the skills and means to rotate the sensor to vertical position?
500CM WLF viewing, 50mp, the luxury of LV, no cords and integrated looks.
That sounds like photo nirvana to me.
Best
Eduardo

No. I can use it the way it is just fine.
It is "photo nirvana".

 

[tjv]

Darr, are you using a grip on the 501cm? I hear the 50c can accommodate the use of the standard 90 degree finder. That with the grip would mean a very easy portrait shooting setup. At least no different to the H or DF.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Darr,

Thanks for all info! How usable is LV on the "Blad"?

Personally, there are two reasons I am not jumping on the CFV 50c. The first one is simply the money, I feel I have spent more than enough on MFD and cannot really afford another back.

The other reason is that I would have a problem with the crop factor on the "Blad".

On the other hand, I feel that I cannot focus the camera accurately, so I work mostly at f/11, so I cannot make use of the short focus made possible with the decent quality Hasselblad lenses. Live view would certainly help with that.

Best regards
Erik

No. I can use it the way it is just fine.
It is "photo nirvana".

 

[PSon]

If you are shooting with a crop factor sensor and want to use the optical ground glass, the magnifying hood finder DPS 4x4 is very helpful for focusing shallow depth of field lens setting. This finder makes the crop sensor 44x33 into a full frame optical view. This finder works best without using eye glasses on the CFV-50c; with eye glasses, you have to look from side to side to see all the frame. This limitation occurrs due to the design of the finder.

On a side but related note, the live view will also work in many situation. However, for any camera that is not integrated for live view initially, live view will not work as seamlessly in handhold action situation. Thus the magnifying hood become an important tool to facilitate the CFV-50c in practice.

Live view is extremely useful in this situation below where optical finder hits its limit.

X-Act2 prior to Actus

 

[darr]

Darr, are you using a grip on the 501cm? I hear the 50c can accommodate the use of the standard 90 degree finder. That with the grip would mean a very easy portrait shooting setup. At least no different to the H or DF.

Thanks Tim for the info. I do not have a grip like I had in the past, but I do have a 90 degree viewfinder on order.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[PSon]

There is no camera grip for the 501CM. The camera grip is available for the 503CXi, 503CW, 202FA, 203FE, 205TCC and 205FCC.

 

[darr]

Hi Darr,

Thanks for all info! How usable is LV on the "Blad"?

Howdy Erik,
LV is not accessible on 501CM, but there is an option for focus checking.
[Highlight]EDIT: Live View is Accessible on the 501CM: set lens to "B", hold shutter release button in, and press LV button.[/Highlight]

... I feel that I cannot focus the camera accurately, so I work mostly at f/11, so I cannot make use of the short focus made possible with the decent quality Hasselblad lenses. Live view would certainly help with that.

Best regards
Erik

(1) I use the magnifier below with my prism finder for fine focusing and it works well. If you are not using one, it may help with focusing. I picked one up from Igor Camera, but currently there are two offered on eBay.

(2) The 50c has a 'P' button you can set for Focus Check (FC). Once you take the picture, you would push the 'P' button and then you move the crosshair to where you want to check focus on the image for up to a 100% view.

I think if you do not have the magnifier, you could try that, but FC would work very well too.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[darr]

If you are shooting with a crop factor sensor and want to use the optical ground glass, the magnifying hood finder DPS 4x4 is very helpful for focusing shallow depth of field lens setting. This finder makes the crop sensor 44x33 into a full frame optical view. This finder works best without using eye glasses on the CFV-50c; with eye glasses, you have to look from side to side to see all the frame. This limitation occurrs due to the design of the finder.

Thank you Son. Unfortunately, I started wearing bifocals and need to wear them when I shoot. I sometimes wear contact lenses, but I cannot wear them when I photograph as the diopters between the contact lenses and the viewfinder get distorted and I cannot focus. I just searched eBay for the DPS 4x4 and its expensive at $600, when compared to a PME90 in EX+ condition for $468.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[PSon]

Hi Darr,
I also have the magnifier you posted up top. This magnifier works with older 45 and 90 degree finders. It may not work on the latest 45 and 90 degree prisms. I will double check since I have all of the new and old Hasselblad accessories to make sure.

If you don't mind looking a little to the left and right to see the complete frame, this is the brightest and highest magnifier I have ever use and I have many systems. It is quite expensive when I bought it as well. I just sent one to John Milich (jm) who actually was the first one at least in the GetDPI forum to acquire the CFV-50c. He can tell you his own experience. I got another one that I can send it to you to try if you like. Just PM if you want to try it.

 

[darr]

Hi Darr,
I also have the magnifier you posted up top. This magnifier works with older 45 and 90 degree finders. It may not work on the latest 45 and 90 degree prisms. I will double check since I have all of the new and old Hasselblad accessories to make sure.

If you don't mind looking a little to the left and right to see the complete frame, this is the brightest and highest magnifier I have ever use and I have many systems. It is quite expensive when I bought it as well. I just sent one to John Milich (jm) who actually was the first one at least in the GetDPI forum to acquire the CFV-50c. He can tell you his own experience. I got another one that I can send it to you to try if you like. Just PM if you want to try it.

Son, I already own the magnifier I posted a picture of and it works well for my eyes with a PM45 viewfinder. I would not be interested in acquiring a DPS 4x4.

John and I bought the 50c I think on the same day, as he sent me a PM and we discussed our purchases. He is currently using it on a 200 series and has posted excellent photos made with it. I do not know if he is using it with a tech cam as he sold some tech camera gear lately.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[bindermuehle]

Hi torgen and darr,

thank you so much for your in-depth responses. Indeed my equipment choice could be a matter of complete overhaul. However, I've done just that with the Canon, and even though I thought I could work with it, I couldn't. With the Hassy V, it feels like she's just an extension to my eyes and imagination. I never had that with any other camera system.

Darr is bringing to the point I think. I'll just need to try and get my hands on one to see how it works for me.

Cheers

- Balt

 

[darr]

Hi torgen and darr,

thank you so much for your in-depth responses. Indeed my equipment choice could be a matter of complete overhaul. However, I've done just that with the Canon, and even though I thought I could work with it, I couldn't. With the Hassy V, it feels like she's just an extension to my eyes and imagination. I never had that with any other camera system.

Darr is bringing to the point I think. I'll just need to try and get my hands on one to see how it works for me.

Cheers

- Balt

Balt,
You are welcome. This forum IMO is the friendliest on the web and a valuable resource for medium format shooters.

If the V feels like she's an extension to your eyes and imagination, I do understand that, and recommend you get the 50c. I think you will enjoy it immensely. :angel:
I do not know where you can try before you buy, and if you find a resource for that, please post it in the thread for others to read.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[tjv]

The files that Darr showed me are excellent and I feel up there with anything else on the market. Only if you're thinking of using a technical camera and employing relatively large movements would I recommend looking at something else, really.
If you're shooting with a V series camera, then it's a no brainer IMHO. Like others, I wish it could rotate, but if you buy a body that can accommodate the motorised grip, then no worries.