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I just wrote up my experiences with the Pentax 645z

torger

Active member
There is no such thing as a camera that can do it all. "Horses for courses" is still valid.
While I certainly agree that there is no camera that is best at all aspects, I do believe that there today more than ever exists cameras that can cover a particular photographer's needs and desires within his/hers shooting style.

The Pentax 645z provides a something new, reaching further into classic MFD grounds, while keeping more of the DSLR feature set. For some photographers it can be the perfect mix of features to cover all their needs.

I don't know what the cost to upgrade a H4D-50 to a H5D-50c is, but it's probably not too bad, $10k perhaps? You can however sell all your Hassy gear and get a decent amount of money for it and invest that in your Pentax 645z system, so it's sort of a cross-grade. I actually bought my own H4D-50 from someone that switched to Pentax. I think they think a bit longer term, if you want more DSLR-like behavior, weather proofing, cheaper upgrades etc I think Pentax has more credibility than Hasselblad right now among many photographers (not all though obviously).
 

Chris Giles

New member
The notion that one will magically be able to shoot in low available light with MFD skips the fact that in most cases the available light at a wedding is poor in quality and direction because we usually don't have control over when and where ... unless one plans the shots ... in which case a leaf shutter camera with lighting is better anyway because you are in control of the light's quality, quantity, and direction.
A lot of wedding photographers would strongly disagree with that. You have to work with what you have and experience teaches you how to deal with it.

The very last thing I would want in poor quality ambient lighting is a fast shutter speed, unless I wanted kill the ambient completely, in which case I'd reduce the aperture anyway.

On the subject of flash though Marc, was any progress ever made with TTL flash for the H series? I used the SCA3902 (I think that's the module number) and a Metz flash but there seems to be no solutions beyond that. Not that I've looked for quite a while.

I don't know what the cost to upgrade a H4D-50 to a H5D-50c is, but it's probably not too bad, $10k perhaps? You can however sell all your Hassy gear and get a decent amount of money for it and invest that in your Pentax 645z system, so it's sort of a cross-grade. I actually bought my own H4D-50 from someone that switched to Pentax. I think they think a bit longer term, if you want more DSLR-like behavior, weather proofing, cheaper upgrades etc I think Pentax has more credibility than Hasselblad right now among many photographers (not all though obviously).
I got everything below for £8000

Edit: Used lenses ;)
 
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torger

Active member
Found a 2014 hassy price list, trade-in H4D-50 body to a H5D-50c body is £10195+VAT.

Comparing it to a Pentax system where many of the lenses have been bought second hand is not entirerly fair though :). New Pentax lenses are quite expensive, not quite as expensive as new Hassy lenses though.
 

Chris Giles

New member
Found a 2014 hassy price list, trade-in H4D-50 body to a H5D-50c body is £10195+VAT.

Comparing it to a Pentax system where many of the lenses have been bought second hand is not entirerly fair though :). New Pentax lenses are quite expensive, not quite as expensive as new Hassy lenses though.
This is true. :)
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Could you fit a larger sensor in the Z?
The camera is based on the Pentax 645 film camera, so Pentax could build a camera with a larger sensor. I am sure the shutter gate for the Z is optimized for the 44x33 format. Pentax also seems to be designing most of their new lenses for the 44x33 format.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
A lot of wedding photographers would strongly disagree with that. You have to work with what you have and experience teaches you how to deal with it.

The very last thing I would want in poor quality ambient lighting is a fast shutter speed, unless I wanted kill the ambient completely, in which case I'd reduce the aperture anyway.

On the subject of flash though Marc, was any progress ever made with TTL flash for the H series? I used the SCA3902 (I think that's the module number) and a Metz flash but there seems to be no solutions beyond that. Not that I've looked for quite a while.



I got everything below for £8000

Edit: Used lenses ;)
Working with what you have depends on ... what you have. Personally, I designed my wedding kit around the lighting conditions I most frequently face. That's the experience I learned to draw from in order to deal with it.

Poor quality ambient doesn't necessarily mean low ambient Chris. One can be forced to shoot in outdoor locations at a time when the background is nuclear and the subject in shade (happens frequently due to wedding itineraries). 1/800th sync with a skillfully used strobe system will beat the best DR camera ever made. DR is in my control, not limited to what a camera may or may not be able to manage.

Not to give you a lesson,:lecture: since you are a very accomplished photographer, but for clarification ... one doesn't kill the ambient when working with lights by reducing the aperture ... you increase the shutter speed which has no effect on the strobe lit subject because the strobe's duration is (usually) faster than the top sync speed. So, the very first thing to do to kill the ambient is use a faster shutter speed .. if you have one:D

For many years I used the Metz TTL speed-light on the H cameras at weddings which was totally controlled in camera ... a strobe directional key light on a painter's pole, with the Metz providing TTL fill. No brainer, worked like a charm.

This in no way is intended to diminish the Pentax which is a personal choice. It just gets irritating how new tech seems to bring out the "Obsoleters" in droves.

For wedding work my choice was (Hasselblad H), and continues to be (Leica S) ... a leaf-shutter camera with a CCD sensor. I use a fast DLR for other stuff, and all of my second shooters use ... gasp!... Canons.

My technological philosophy is now ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ...:ROTFL:

- Marc
 
1/800th sync with a skillfully used strobe system will beat the best DR camera ever made. DR is in my control, not limited to what a camera may or may not be able to manage.

- Marc
There are moments when the flash does not fire. If it was shot with a Sony CMOS sensor, you may still use that image and print it in small. If it was shot with a CCD or a current Canon CMOS (not the upcoming one to be announced in a few weeks), then it is freaked up beyond repair.

This is what fault tolerance means. With better gear, you have *more* control.
 
Well, if photography is simply a technical problem, then new technology will make your photographs "better." But photography is also an aesthetic problem. And, unfortunately for the camera companies, that cannot be solved by just improving performance of the machines. No, I cannot shot (easily) a landscape with a sharp image of the Milky Way with a large-format camera. But why do I have to?

Most people do not shoot sports with film, but some do. And what that means is some photographers understand that photography is also a creative problem and when you think in different terms, you come out with photographs different from others:

David Burnett's Speed Graphic Photos of the London 2012 Olympics

I think the advances in technology are great. They give photographers new tools. That does not invalidate the old ones.

Yes, my Pentax CCD is old. CCDs will become obsolete. But the images from my camera will not be obsolete. No amount of technical innovation will diminish the value of my work.
Of course photography is more about aesthetic problem. Why not shoot with an iPhone and enjoy life?
 

Chris Giles

New member
Not to give you a lesson,:lecture: since you are a very accomplished photographer, but for clarification ... one doesn't kill the ambient when working with lights by reducing the aperture ... you increase the shutter speed which has no effect on the strobe lit subject because the strobe's duration is (usually) faster than the top sync speed. So, the very first thing to do to kill the ambient is use a faster shutter speed .. if you have one:D


- Marc
I'm aware of this. If I were using the Pentax, that's what I'd do in response to a low sync speed, as I have done with Canon for the last few years. I'm sure you quite rightly know, you CAN reduce ambient light by shutter, aperture or ISO, it's Exposure basics :thumbup:

It just means cranking the strobe instead.

If I'm in bad lighting it's usually mixed and if it's too bright, I have 5 stops I can underexpose by or I just move somewhere else.

Let's not forget the Pentax HSS which goes right up to 1/4000 sec.
 
Because I enjoy shooting other cameras more. But some like the iPhone too. I have also enjoyed seeing iPhone photography.
If you have reasons to love a specific camera gear that is not with state-of-the-art performance then just enjoy it :thumbup: No need to join into discussion regarding performance :angel:
 

Shashin

Well-known member
If you have reasons to love a specific camera gear that is not with state-of-the-art performance then just enjoy it :thumbup: No need to join into discussion regarding performance :angel:
This is an open discussion. Members are free to add comments as they see fit. You brought up a point and I simply commented on it. You don't get to limit nor censor member participation.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I'm aware of this. If I were using the Pentax, that's what I'd do in response to a low sync speed, as I have done with Canon for the last few years. I'm sure you quite rightly know, you CAN reduce ambient light by shutter, aperture or ISO, it's Exposure basics :thumbup:

It just means cranking the strobe instead.

If I'm in bad lighting it's usually mixed and if it's too bright, I have 5 stops I can underexpose by or I just move somewhere else.

Let's not forget the Pentax HSS which goes right up to 1/4000 sec.
I understand what you meant now Chris. I used to work with a Contax 645 that had a slower sync speed and had to do the same thing in certain lighting conditions.

Personally, I still like higher sync speeds with MFD because IMHO the point of it is better IQ ... so the lower the ISO, and the broader choice of aperture for creative reasons that using shutter-speed to control light balance affords me is my preference. I now sync full flash up to 1/1000 using Profoto AIR to control background exposures.

HSS with what lighting? I presume on-camera speed-light flash which is a pulsed light and very limited in output from a small sized, weak source. My MFD camera does HSS to 1/4000 also, which I usually find almost useless.

Actually, I currently envy your Canon ... for location work I'm working with the Profoto B1 now, and wish I had your Canon to try the TTL transceiver ... plus, Profoto just added HSS via firmware ... with a much larger source and waaaaay more pulsed output.:) Can't do that with my Sony A99 SLT, A7R, or any MFD camera:thumbdown:

Enjoy the Pentax. Nice review:thumbup:

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
There are moments when the flash does not fire. If it was shot with a Sony CMOS sensor, you may still use that image and print it in small. If it was shot with a CCD or a current Canon CMOS (not the upcoming one to be announced in a few weeks), then it is freaked up beyond repair.

This is what fault tolerance means. With better gear, you have *more* control.
You act as if there was no DR from other cameras.:ROTFL: An extra stop to two of DR isn't going to make that much difference if you take a blank frame. BTW, I have Sony cameras with Sony sensors and have used Nikon cameras with Sony sensors ... so exaggerations are met with a healthy dose of skepticism.

The moments when flash doesn't fire is pretty rare if you know what you are doing. Technology is NOT a substitute for prep, knowledge and skill. IMO, fixing it in Photoshop is NOT crutch one should become reliant on.

Better gear is NOT a guarantee of better photographs. Never was. Never will be.

Just saying'


- Marc
 

Chris Giles

New member
I understand what you meant now Chris. I used to work with a Contax 645 that had a slower sync speed and had to do the same thing in certain lighting conditions.

Personally, I still like higher sync speeds with MFD because IMHO the point of it is better IQ ... so the lower the ISO, and the broader choice of aperture for creative reasons that using shutter-speed to control light balance affords me is my preference. I now sync full flash up to 1/1000 using Profoto AIR to control background exposures.

HSS with what lighting? I presume on-camera speed-light flash which is a pulsed light and very limited in output from a small sized, weak source. My MFD camera does HSS to 1/4000 also, which I usually find almost useless.

Actually, I currently envy your Canon ... for location work I'm working with the Profoto B1 now, and wish I had your Canon to try the TTL transceiver ... plus, Profoto just added HSS via firmware ... with a much larger source and waaaaay more pulsed output.:) Can't do that with my Sony A99 SLT, A7R, or any MFD camera:thumbdown:

Enjoy the Pentax. Nice review:thumbup:

- Marc
Thanks Marc,
With the Canon I used HSS using the on camera flash as a wireless trigger then multiplying the number of external flashes to negate the power loss.

At around 1/4000 sec, 4x 600ex's in HSS on a quad stand will kick out about the same as a single full power flash. I did run the numbers once but no longer have a record. But even in HSS as soon as you start grouping flashes you get your power back. One flash in HSS is never enough for anything though. On my manufacturer wishlist would be someone coming up with a single 'Fat Flash' that has the power of 4, can be used as a studio head as well as in HSS. I guess there's possibly solutions like this already but getting the Canon or Pentax to work with it is something else.

I'm not overly into my flash. It seems every 2 months there's something new and exciting in that regard.

I prefer speedlites in truth because there is no powering down as with the heavier external packs. I have a Safari 600w pack and each time you changed the power setting you had to fire a discharge shot before testing the setting.

The Pentax system appears the same with wireless HSS. It's just not something I could test owning only one of their flashes. I've tried to find out who the Pentax rep is to source kit for further testing but I'll be honest, I've not tried too hard yet. If anyone knows who the guy to speak to at Pentax is, I'd love to know. :)
 
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You act as if there was no DR from other cameras.:ROTFL: An extra stop to two of DR isn't going to make that much difference if you take a blank frame. BTW, I have Sony cameras with Sony sensors and have used Nikon cameras with Sony sensors ... so exaggerations are met with a healthy dose of skepticism.
It's a 3-stop advantage of DR for the current Sony CMOS sensors. You can easily observe the difference if you print the pictures at A4 size when you needed the DR.

The moments when flash doesn't fire is pretty rare if you know what you are doing.
Creative underexposure with Nikon DSLR camera


With a Sony CMOS (e.g. IQ250 with 1/1600 sync or H5D-50C with 1/800 sync) you still have DR in your control but you also gain the flexibility of not having to rely on the lighting system when you are not allowed to.

Imagine a situation where you would have to do a burst of continuous shots and capture the best emotions so you have a picture of the decisive moment (remember that the most natural and real emotions cannot be captured unless your subject is unaware of the photographer's presence). The strobe will draw their attention immediately, and the recharging rate may not hold up long against your frame rate.

Technology is NOT a substitute for prep, knowledge and skill. IMO, fixing it in Photoshop is NOT crutch one should become reliant on.

Better gear is NOT a guarantee of better photographs. Never was. Never will be.

Just saying'

- Marc
If this is the case then why not shoot with an iPhone?
 

Chris Giles

New member
Voidshatter hits upon a really good and often overlooked point with flash and weddings.

They're never professional models and we capture emotion. We need to fire off shots in quick succession as the moment happens. Waiting for a flash to recharge is a pain and it can also spoil the moment. I've generally 15 minutes with a couple in three locations around the venue.

It does depend on your shooting style though. I tend to work alone without assistants and try to be as unobtrusive as possible.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
It's a 3-stop advantage of DR for the current Sony CMOS sensors. You can easily observe the difference if you print the pictures at A4 size when you needed the DR.



Creative underexposure with Nikon DSLR camera


With a Sony CMOS (e.g. IQ250 with 1/1600 sync or H5D-50C with 1/800 sync) you still have DR in your control but you also gain the flexibility of not having to rely on the lighting system when you are not allowed to.

Imagine a situation where you would have to do a burst of continuous shots and capture the best emotions so you have a picture of the decisive moment (remember that the most natural and real emotions cannot be captured unless your subject is unaware of the photographer's presence). The strobe will draw their attention immediately, and the recharging rate may not hold up long against your frame rate.


If this is the case then why not shoot with an iPhone?
I suppose we could go on for a month of Sundays debating this ...

The term is "decisive moment" not decisive moments ... which is a matter of timing rather than hosing off shots hoping to get the right emotion. That was proven long ago when film cameras could be motor-driven up to 10FPS. Didn't work then, and still doesn't.

It is about observing human nature and anticipating, and paying attention to one's surroundings ... not machining gunning off shots like a movie camera hoping to get a keeper. Decisive moment photography was born and reached its height when none of these wonder cameras was even a dream of photographers.

I do a lot of shots without lighting ... rarely need more than ISO 1600/3200 which almost any modern camera can do just fine ... If you expose correctly.

I will refrain from commenting on your "photoshop save", and not reply to the cell phone comment since the answer is remedial.

My whole point is that digital photography gear reach a very usable level some time ago, and all the rest is subtile improvements that aren't all that critical to shooting something like a wedding. The exception perhaps is the advent of very small cameras with super high resolution FF sensors ... which has nothing to do with MFD.

Personally, even IF a MFD camera could do it all at a wedding, who the hell wants to lug around a big-assed camera/lenses for 8 hours? I use mine for formals and portraits and then put it away.:)

Plus, I use a little rangefinder for "decisive moment" work ... not some giant camera with huge lenses.:rolleyes:

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Thanks Marc,
With the Canon I used HSS using the on camera flash as a wireless trigger then multiplying the number of external flashes to negate the power loss.

At around 1/4000 sec, 4x 600ex's in HSS on a quad stand will kick out about the same as a single full power flash. I did run the numbers once but no longer have a record. But even in HSS as soon as you start grouping flashes you get your power back. One flash in HSS is never enough for anything though. On my manufacturer wishlist would be someone coming up with a single 'Fat Flash' that has the power of 4, can be used as a studio head as well as in HSS. I guess there's possibly solutions like this already but getting the Canon or Pentax to work with it is something else.

I'm not overly into my flash. It seems every 2 months there's something new and exciting in that regard.

I prefer speedlites in truth because there is no powering down as with the heavier external packs. I have a Safari 600w pack and each time you changed the power setting you had to fire a discharge shot before testing the setting.

The Pentax system appears the same with wireless HSS. It's just not something I could test owning only one of their flashes. I've tried to find out who the Pentax rep is to source kit for further testing but I'll be honest, I've not tried too hard yet. If anyone knows who the guy to speak to at Pentax is, I'd love to know. :)
Hey Chris, as mentioned, the Profoto B1 does do TTL, and now will do HSS up to 1/8000 with your Canon.

Most newer heads have auto dump, so when you power up or down it's ready to go. The B1 is 500W/s which would require 6 Canon 600EX-RTs in a group to equal. It is not cheap, but cheaper than 4 600EX-RTs. Plus the light quality is much better.

I gave up on Speed-Lights sometime ago because I kept hitting the thermal limits when working rapidly especially in hotter conditions. A strobe will go and go until the battery is depleted. Plus, it was beating the snot out of my speed-lights to use them that way.

Just a thought to consider.

- Marc
 
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