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Let's begin a discussion on technical cameras

Don Libby

Well-known member
I thought I'd begin a new thread where we can discuss the pros and cons on using a technical camera. At the risk of repeating myself, here's a little of my history into Dante's sub-cavern of medium format technical cameras.

The result I see with my setup is by no means a single feat. I owe an awful lot to others who have experimented and passed on their knowledge. Anyway here goes..



Fall of 2008 I wanted to take my landscape photography to the next level; part of the reason being I was tired of capturing spherical images to stitch into a panorama (and loosing too much information) and wanted to begin flat-stitching. I also wanted to use better lenses. As good as the Phase/Mamiya lenses I was using they weren't then and I still believe today as good as what can be used on a technical camera.

As luck would have it I have a great camera dealer which I count both as a friend and one I trust (Capture Integration). I was talking to them saying how much I wanted to go to the next level and wanted to try a Cambo system. The first system I tried was the beautiful Cambo Ultima. I still all these years later lust after this camera. I tried it in Monument Valley and fell in love with it. What I didn't love was the weight so sadly I had to give it up.



Then I learned of the Cambo WRS-1000; a system that Cambo had just released a couple months prior that was made specifically for digital medium format photography. I tried a new in the box WRS-1000 while at the North Rim that Fall and fell heads over heals. I was shooting the WRS with a 35mm Schneider (with center filter) and a P45+ as my current back, a P30+ wouldn't have work neared as well. In one day I was hooked and that night I began knitting my mask. I ended up keeping the kit refusing to return it, trading my P30+ instead. I ended up shooting the WRS almost exclusively for the next couple months and soon there was a huge sell-off of Mamiya/Phase bodies and lenses as I went to shoot nothing but the WRS for several years.

Anyone who knows me knows I later added a Leica M9 as my walk around camera. I had at the time felt that the M9 was a (near) perfect companion camera to the WRS/P45+ as both had the same sensor and produced nearly the same image quality. Sadly the M9 couldn't hold up to my printing standards as I tend to print large and the resolution at the time suffered. The M9 went away to be replaced by yet another Phase camera, this time a gently used DF and a soon a host of lenses. The P45+ was upgraded to a P65 which in turn was replaced by an IQ160 which just a couple months ago was replaced by a gently used IQ180.



During this timeframe of using the WRS-1000 (which is now more like a 1250 as I added wooden handles for easy of using with gloves) I experimented using groundglass and viewfinders. While both work to a degree the watershed event was the release of both the IQ series and getting a working USB3 port as well as the Microsoft Surface Pro 2. And like any good citizen of Dante I adopted first the SP2 and shortly afterwards the SP3 (there won't be a SP4 as it looks to be too large).

We have several threads going that contain great information on tethering the Surface Pro as well as images of technical cameras. Likewise we have reviews of various technical cameras as well as a thread that contains images taken using various technical cameras.

What I hope with this thread is to have an open and frank discussion on the pros and cons of using such a camera system. Let's begin with the camera itself, then move to the lenses and finally to the back.


(this is the setup I was using last night to shoot a typical Arizona sunset and at the same time test a new filter. Taken this morning using a Sony A7r and Mitakon 50mm f/0.95 - using the right tool for the application).
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Sorry I got a little long winded on the first post.

My biggest fear as I first began using a tech camera was focus. Remember, a technical camera is a totally manual operation (and 7-years ago we weren't even aware of live view either as a system or software). Shooting landscape and nature what I quickly learned was my difficulty wasn't focusing, it turned out remembering to remove the lens cap, cocking the shutter followed by turning the back on. Once I developed a proper workflow everything fell into place.

As I stated above, I print large (40x30, 30x60, 40x60 and larger) and using the ability to capture on a flat plane allows me to stitch flat giving me almost all the file (at least well over 98%).

I also learned early on you need a sturdy tripod and head. It took awhile to get past the thought that my tripod and head alone is worth in excess of $3000. Any we can begin an entirely new thread just on tripods and heads but lets not as it already been covered; just search "Arca Swiss Cube".

I've been using my WRS-1000 now since October 2008. It's never been in for service and remains as tight today as it was 74-months ago. I've used this camera in deep sand, blowing snow/sleet, hot desert and freezing temperatures of Jackson Hole and Yellowstone and will be taking it to Alaska on 2-seperate trips, first to capture fall colors and again later to shoot the aurora borealis. It's been in the surf in Oregon, hanging off a cliff in Chico Canyon as well as setup on the edge of the Grand Canyon. Not once has it ever failed me.

I've tried other systems that Cambo has made and not found another like the WRS.

So there you have it, at least as far as a Cambo goes.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
One more thought on using a technical camera. Much like any other camera you can't just get it out of the box and expect to achieve success. You need hours of experimentation to get your perfect workflow. What works well for me might not for you so develop it yourself; I use my backyard to this.

One last thought on what a tech camera is, at least my way of thinking. A tech camera is nothing more than a dumb piece of metal. Heck, you can even make one out of plastic or wood. This piece helps to mate a capture device to a lens. I call it dumb in that while it has moving parts such as horizontal/vertical shifts it has no electronics. Some bodies also include rise and fall while others like Cambo have that on the lens.



Okay I'm done (finally). Lets hear from those who actually have a technical camera. Remember the rules (such as they are) require you to speak about the camera you use. Why did you get it. What do you like about it and what don't you like (if anything). Then move to the lenses you use and finally address the method of capture. What back are you using.

Lets the games begin...


Don


The one thing I've learned is that there is no perfect camera
 
Since Sony sensors are banned from this thread I'm not going to talk about Live View. The main justification for me to choose a tech cam is just for sharp corners of wide angles (as well as parallax-free rectilinear stitching).

1. Lenses:

23HR: Widest lens with tech-cam level of corner sharpness (unmatched by Canon counterparts). Requires centerfilter.
32HR: Another widest lens with tech-cam level of corner sharpness (but with a larger image circle than the 23HR). Also requires centerfilter. Delicate.
40HR: More versatile. No need for centerfilter.

2. Bodies:

ALPA 12 SWA: purely for aesthetics reasons.
ALPA 12 STC: light-weighted and versatile.
ALPA 12 MAX: full functionality but not so portable.

3. Backs:

Phase One IQ260: fullframe, but long exposure is disappointing.
Phase One IQ***: it's banned from this thread so let's keep it censored.
 

Harry

Member
What are rough price differences for the same lenses from the various tech cam manufacturers?

Alpa - Cambo - Arca
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Harry,

The price differences are somewhat interesting due to the mounts and the fact that some, like the Cambo, put tilt/swing adapters on the lens whilst others like Arca and Alpa use the body or adapters.

You need to consider the total cost of a system with identical capabilities and lenses. When you do that they end up being somewhat similar in cost overall, with the costs going from Cambo, through Arca and topped out by Alpa.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Since Sony sensors are banned from this thread I'm not going to talk about Live View. The main justification for me to choose a tech cam is just for sharp corners of wide angles (as well as parallax-free rectilinear stitching).

1. Lenses:

23HR: Widest lens with tech-cam level of corner sharpness (unmatched by Canon counterparts). Requires centerfilter.
32HR: Another widest lens with tech-cam level of corner sharpness (but with a larger image circle than the 23HR). Also requires centerfilter. Delicate.
40HR: More versatile. No need for centerfilter.

2. Bodies:

ALPA 12 SWA: purely for aesthetics reasons.
ALPA 12 STC: light-weighted and versatile.
ALPA 12 MAX: full functionality but not so portable.

3. Backs:

Phase One IQ260: fullframe, but long exposure is disappointing.
Phase One IQ***: it's banned from this thread so let's keep it censored.
You speak (all to little) on why you choose a tech cam although you left out why you choose your particular model.

Regarding banning Sony sensors? Not entirely sure why or how you came to that conclusion unless you're just trying to be funny. Lets make a deal, if you can speak to your particular back without the use of grafts and any of the various samples of images you've already used then go ahead.

I will warn you and everyone else that using someone else's images without their expressed permission is copyright infringement or what I like to call it theft. Anyone who does that looses all credibility.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Harry, there are two major companies (that I can think of off the top of my head) offering lenses for technical cameras; Rohenstock & Schneider, both are good. The cost factor/difference comes with the mounting. Some Schneider lenses are offered in both a static and tilt/shift lensboard and the difference is at least $1500 (at least with Cambo).

The 3-companies you mention all make equally good system with (I believe) Alpa the more expensive and Cambo the lest. Once you get past the cost of the body the lenses will be much more expensive depending on mount and focal length. Some lenses require a center filter and some don't (Schneider 35 does the Rodenstock 40 does not).

Equally confusing is some lenses work better on certain backs while others don't. I had been using a Schneider 35 for years using first a P45+, then P65 and then a IQ160 with great success. Sadly the lens doesn't play well with 80 megapixel IQ180. Sold the lens and replaced it with a Redenstock 40 that does.

Contrary to popular belief using a tech camera is not an exact science. The choice of the system whether its Alpa, Arca or Cambo is more of a subjective, personal choice. The choice of lenses will depend on how/what you shoot and will to some degree require trial and error. And then there's the back. In the seven years I've been using the same body and much the same lenses I changed backs 4 times.

All this brings me to another topic - finding the right dealer. Again there's some folks that refuse to use a dealer and they end up paying for it. My suggestion is find a dealer who not only listens to you but asks you questions as well. Find a dealer who you can trust. My dealer has also turned into a close personal friend.

Don
 
I will warn you and everyone else that using someone else's images without their expressed permission is copyright infringement or what I like to call it theft. Anyone who does that looses all credibility.
Yeah this is a good way to keep a thread clean without starting a flame.

I am also a thief stealing figures and data from dxomark, sensorgen and Bill Claff's websites. Feel free to judge my credibility.

Yes I shared some pictures posted by others at 500px where they wanted their pictures to be shared. Do I make money on their pictures? (by trying to promote and sell Sony sensors?) I take it that you are going to sue me by collecting evidence. Go ahead.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Fair warning my patience is getting thin here. This jumps to something even remotely out of control than make no mistake about it. I will step in and it will not be pleasant. It ALL stops now on a ALL counts and on ALL threads and posts this goes for EVERYONE. Do NOT test me.
 

Dogs857

New member
I have been in the position to own two different tech cameras now.

Prior to leaping into the inferno I had used a D3x for years. I did buy a D800E but sold it as the ergonomics of that particular camera bugged me. My first foray was with an Arca Rm3di and Phase One IQ180. I had the Rodie 40mm and 70mm as my lenses and thought it was the most amazing thing I had ever used. People talk about light bulb moments in their life and, for me, using a tech camera was one such moment.

I struggled a little with the focusing on the Arca, but only because I didn't have enough time to truly get used to it. Having tilt on every lens was quite helpful, and the glass was amazing. This was the IQ I had been wanting, flat stitching was a new world to me and the ability to print even larger was my target.

However just as I was getting into the swing of the system I had to sell it all off for financial reasons. I consoled myself with another D800E, then sold it again, then bought a D810. I really didn't mind that camera, the files were really stunning. I do admire the ability to push the shadows, however it always left everything looking a bit flat. Plus once it was printed up it seemed to lack that immersion I got with MF.

This could all have been in my head as well and I will readily admit that. I missed my technical camera. So I begged, borrowed and stole until I could afford to jump back into the inferno.

This time I have a Cambo WRS-1250 and the Phase P45+. I didn't chose this combination for any particular reason except cost. It was the best I could afford. I could have gone back for a Rm3di and an even older back, but as Don points out the bodies are not the most important part of the puzzle. The 45+ gave me a long exposure ability and I was looking forward to putting that to use.

I bought lenses second hand, 70mm Rodie (still upset I missed Johns version with T/S) 43XL and 24XL. They are all quality and fit my sensor nicely. Sure I will be in a bit of trouble should I want to upgrade (especially with the 24XL) but that will not be happening any time soon and you never know what will be released in the future. Perhaps Phase will bring out a 37mmx49mm sensor with 50mp at 6 microns that will work with SK wide angles. If so I might jump on that.

Things that I have found about shooting tech cameras;

There is a steep learning curve. Everything that I was allowing my camera to do for me (or for the most part anyway) I was now having to do for myself. I had always used DLSR's and even shooting manually relied on the camera to assist with a lot of functions.
Exposure, guess, use the sunny 16 rule, embrace the zone system, shoot and test, bracket.
Focus, hyperfocal, ground glass, laser, guess, shoot and test.
Framing, guess, ground glass, shoot and test.

The best thing I bought for my current setup was the Cambo ground glass and loupe (thanks Don for the excellent write up). This lets me frame more accurately the first time.

The thing I love about this form of shooting is it makes me feel more like a photographer again. It inspires me in a way that DSLR's fail to do and makes me want to get out more and shoot. Just for the love of it, and I had been missing that for a while.

Sure I would love Live View, and the newer backs have brought that into our realm. It will make the GG unnecessary and certainly speed up the process. I actually am looking forward to seeing what is on the horizon with MFD and feel that there are some interesting times ahead.
 

darr

Well-known member
Lets hear from those who actually have a technical camera. Remember the rules (such as they are) require you to speak about the camera you use. Why did you get it. What do you like about it and what don't you like (if anything). Then move to the lenses you use and finally address the method of capture. What back are you using.
My technical camera since 2010 has been an ALPA Max. Before that, it was an Arca Swiss ML2, and then for 20+ years before, it was an array of 4x5" and 5x7" large format film cameras from Arca Swiss (A/S), Ebony, Cambo and Wisner. The probable definition of a tech camera is a box with movements, but I currently also shoot an ALPA TC and a Hasselblad 501 + macro bellows with digital backs.

I chose the ALPA after using the ML2 for about a year. Although I 'grew-up' with large format view cameras, and a few were A/S, once I began my digital transition, I found the pancake-style camera to be more appropriate for my digital needs. The ML2 I owned was a nice camera, but I found a bit of slop in it's focusing to be annoying. Since owning the ML2, A/S designed the R line and other view cameras for digital use, but once I started with ALPA, there was no turning back. The reason the ALPA fits my shooting style, is the speed in which I can setup, make precise movements when necessary, and break down and be done with it. Another pancake-style MFD camera may work just as well for me, but I started with ALPA and feel no need to jump ship. Two things about ALPA I wish were different is the price tag and not being able to have a favorite lens (Cooke PS945) modified for use with their cameras.

I have used Schneider, Rodenstock, Cooke and Docter lenses with film and digital. I currently use Schneider lenses with the ALPA setup because they are smaller than the Rodenstock lenses and weigh less. I do however have a few Rodenstock lenses in my gear cabinet that I may use with an upcoming camera purchase. I am not that interested in the Cambo Actus as much as I am interested in the Novoflex bellows for the ALPA.

I initially purchased a Phase One (P1) P45 back and was happy with the captures, but not with the interface/screen. I watched the evolution of the P1 backs and was waiting for a true Live View (LV) back. When the IQ250 appeared, I started saving for a new back. I always felt LV was the missing link for MFD, and since 12/2014 I have owned a CFV50c and could not be happier. Gone are the days I have to have a light meter, ground glass and dark cloth/loupe. I am loving the freedom LV has brought, but I still stash some of those items in my bag out of habit. I am looking forward to a full frame CMOS back and will definitely buy one when they are available.

A lot of photographers on this forum shoot landscapes with MFD, and I am probably in the minority because I do not shoot landscapes much, and when I do, I use my point and shoot Sigma Merrill cameras. But, I will never give up the technical camera because it has always been my tool of choice alongside my love for fine optics. It saddens me to read how others struggle with their gear and how the tech camera intimidates some from learning how to use it. I really do not see the tech camera being difficult; what I see difficult is trying to learn the menu of a typical dSLR.

Kind regards,
Darr
 

Dogs857

New member
A couple more things;

The lenses have a back cap, remember to take that off. If I had a dollar for every time I have shot black frames and spent ages checking everything wondering what the hell has gone wrong :cussing: Take the back cap off.

The shutter. I religiously now check my shutter is fired before I try and open the lens for framing. This is very important as you can damage them and I have been in the unfortunate position of forgetting and having my 24XL stuck in a kind of half working half not mode. Luckily I got it rectified, but it was scary. I always check now, and I only cock my shutter just before I fire. No changing settings after the shutter is cocked.

For my back a one shot release cable is a godsend. Get one and stop whinging about how much they cost. It will save you a lot of frustration in the long run.
 

jianghai

Member
Question that may be more complicated to answer than i imagine:

What is the best system (Cambo/Arca/Alpa) if I want to use a ground glass with it (i.e. most convenient to use with GG)? Sliding back perhaps?

I've always been used to larger formats and their ground glasses, not to mention the lack of live view in most backs, so a GG would be nice. And LOL at the rear lens cap –*I realize that much earlier when I go "where's there image on the ground glass?". Problem never goes away.
 

alajuela

Active member
Hi

Another thing to drill into ones mind, is NOT change shutter speed after the shutter (Copal) is cocked. :facesmack:

This will shorten the life of the shutter.

I use Cambo tech with 280 and Rodi lenses 28, 40 , 90 Schneider 60XL and 120

and

Arca Swiss M and F metric with a gazillion old lenes that will take a lifetime to test, but a only a year or so of complusive buying. :cry: I am looking forward to FS electronic shutter from AS for my F and M setup.

Throw in there my Canon and Fuji and and some old film stuff - that's it!!

I love my camera setup, wife, kids, bikes, car and Anthony's pizza (double peperoni and double cheese) not necessarily in that order:thumbs:

Phil
 

jagsiva

Active member
I resisted the urge to go down the tech cam route for a long time. On a practical level, I just new it would slow me down, and on emotional level, I knew it would either leave me poor or back to being single again.

None the less, here I am. Going from SLR to tech-cam has had a bigger positive difference on my work than when I moved from 35mm FF to MFDB. Likely reason was that my biggest fear of being slowed down has actually helped me be more focused. Ironically, I also find myself spending more time thinking about technique than technology.

I was torn between Alpa and Arca and in the end went with Arca.

Arca provides fantastic engineering, and a level of cross-compatibility across every body and lens mount that is unique to them. I can use my tech lenses on a view camera as I can with pretty much all the bits and pieces like backs, adapter plates, etc. As others have mentioned the focussing system, though tedious at times, is precise and repeatable. The eModule cloud takes it to the next level. Tilt or shift in the body is also unique to Arca. The sliding back allows for movements with large IC lenses like the new 120mm SK ASPH that is not available in any other tech cam. The Factum is a lightweight companion that offers movements including tilt or shift. So the system as a whole is quite expansive and flexible. Lens costs are about 1-1.5K above what you'd see the "naked" lens with a Copal shutter for.

As much as I like the Arca system, there are things in the Alpa system that I lust after. For one, the Arca is somewhat emotionless, where as the Alpa bodies, especially those with the wooden handles, have a certain sensuality that cannot be described, but certainly can be understood when you hold one. The Factum is nice and has great movements, but the TC is quite special. The Alpa sync releases are also MUCH better integrated, and I am curious about their newly released Alpa Sync Mk II. Wonder if i can get this to work in my kit.

I think the Alpas offer a viable hand holdable technical camera, I cannot say the same about the Arca system. If I could mount R-mount lenses on Alpa, I have no doubt I would own an SWA and TC as well. But having the same tech lens in two mounts is not something that will be tolerated where I live.

Going back to the question of why tech cams, for me, there are two main reasons:

1. Movements - when i pickup the DF, D800 or Sony A&R, I feel restricted. I use them because I am limited by some factor - focus speed, CMOS ISO, weight, travel, kids etc., but not having the flexibility of movements really cramps me up. Same with a tripod. I used to hate them. Now I love it. I know when I set one up, I am doing something that is deliberate and thought out. With the cube, I can be setup with camera, lens, back, release cable, all levelled within a couple of minutes, likely less if I was already in "shoot" mode. So I don't find this to be something that slows me, in fact, most often it helps me get in the zone.

2. Lenses - It is so liberating when my choices are limited to super fantastic or just fantastic. Every lens has it's own personality and capabilities. And when you spend this kind of coin on one, you spend the time to learn all about them. For instance, I love the 23HR, but she is a princess. When treated with care, the results are incredible. The 40HR is a no nonsense workhorse. The 32HR falls in between, but in flare and sharpness, better than the other two wides. The SK60XL offers an incredible level of optical quality with a huge range of framing options due to it's large IC. The 90HRSW is just stunning on any level. The SK 120A can produce a tack sharp image that is close to 5x12cm! Have the 28HR and 100HR on 110 boards, both super sharp as well, though limited by their 70mm ICs. even the older tech lenses I have like the 45/55/105 APO Sironar Digital lenses are nothing to sneeze at. The little they give up in sharpness, they make up for in massive image circles.

The quality I get from this kit comes at the cost of convenience and time. But it has also taken me to a different mindset when it comes to my landscape work. That alone is worth it for me.

I am looking forward to FF CMOS backs without micro lenses to make this even more friendly to use. Ultimately physics will be the limiting factor - diffraction, tolerances in materials etc., and for this reason alone, there will be a limit to the maximum number of pixels you can cram into a square inch of silicon. So I look forward to larger sensors, lenses with big image circles, and all the camera movements we can think of!
 

Dogs857

New member
Question that may be more complicated to answer than i imagine:

What is the best system (Cambo/Arca/Alpa) if I want to use a ground glass with it (i.e. most convenient to use with GG)? Sliding back perhaps?

I've always been used to larger formats and their ground glasses, not to mention the lack of live view in most backs, so a GG would be nice. And LOL at the rear lens cap –*I realize that much earlier when I go "where's there image on the ground glass?". Problem never goes away.
Haha yeah. Since I got my GG the problem gets solved a lot earlier in the process now :)

The Arca came new with a GG, the Cambo can be bought as an option. The Arca has a sliding back system and as Jagsiva pointed out is completely modular with everything else Arca makes. I believe that the Linhof Techno has a sliding back as well but I can't be sure. Torger would be the bloke to ask.

The Cambo GG and loupe is a nice setup. It does vignette however, there is not even illumination across the frame. My 24XL makes it even worse and I can't really see the corners of the frame unless it is super bright outside. This lens needs a 2 stop centre filter though so it's not indicative of performance. Probably the worst case really. I wish the loupe was a bit more that 3x, a 6x would have been handy but it is still pretty good for everything but critical focusing. Don did a review in here somewhere.

No idea if Alpa has a GG or not as I have never used that system or even researched it fully.

Hope this helps.
 
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